FAA issues stc on Aerocet 2200 COMPOSITE aircraft floats

FAA issues stc on Aerocet 2200 COMPOSITE aircraft floats

priest river, id, May 15, 2009: Aerocet, Inc. announced today that the FAA has issued an STC approval for PA-18 Supercubs on Aerocet 2200 straight aircraft floats. The FAA flew the SuperCub for the required flight testing, instead of delegating the task, and made wonderful remarks regarding the water handling characteristics.

“We have had a substantial number of requests for Aerocet to fill this void in our product line, we have listened to the pilots and have delivered a superior product that we are confident will exceed our customer’s expectations” stated Matt Sigfrinius, Aerocet’s General Manager.

The Aerocet 2200 floats are approved for PA-18 Supercub aircraft standard gross weights, and to 2000 pounds with an up gross kit. The floats include unique features like all composite construction, which make the floats extremely tough, light, fast on and off the water and eliminates the problems of corrosion and leaks. These floats still have the largest baggage opening in the industry, allowing for carriage of propane bottles and the larger fuel containers (100 lbs per side capacity). Safety is enhanced in the model 2200 floats by making the top deck flat with molded-in anti-skid, easing embarking and disembarking.

Aerocet, Inc. was established in 1987 as a manufacturer specializing in composite aircraft floats. Aerocet is the world’s premier certified manufacturer of composite aircraft floats. The company offers a premium product line of straight composite aircraft float models for water only landings, as well as amphibious aircraft floats that are for both land and water landings. The company is located in the Pacific Northwest of the U.S.A. and is housed in 35,000 sq. ft. of modern manufacturing facilities.

steve said:

The Aerocet 2200 floats are approved for PA-18 Supercub aircraft standard gross weights, and to 2000 pounds with an up gross kit.

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Interesting. Does this mean that Aerocet is offering a 2000# up gross kit for cubs? My understanding was that Wip's 2000# STC only applied to the Wip floats and could not be utilized for any other brand. I suppose one could go to CC for the 2300# kit but, one from aerocet might be a whole lot more affordable. Anybody know?

265 lbs.

how does that compare?

Ursa Major said:

steve said:

The Aerocet 2200 floats are approved for PA-18 Supercub aircraft standard gross weights, and to 2000 pounds with an up gross kit.

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Interesting. Does this mean that Aerocet is offering a 2000# up gross kit for cubs? My understanding was that Wip's 2000# STC only applied to the Wip floats and could not be utilized for any other brand. I suppose one could go to CC for the 2300# kit but, one from aerocet might be a whole lot more affordable. Anybody know?

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Aerocet did the same thing with their 3500 floats saying a 180 was legal to 3190# if the plane had a Kenmore gross weight kit installed. The Kenmore kit specifically limits the gross weight eligibility to EDO 2960s. I never understood why Kenmore didn't challenge Aerocet.

I wonder if the STC will be retroactive to floats built prior to the STC issue, or what the date of the PMA is. I know a guy who's had Aerocets for some time waiting for the STC issue. But I knew guys with pre-STC Bushwheels that couldn't use their tires, too.

Stewart

StewartB said:

Ursa Major said:

steve said:

The Aerocet 2200 floats are approved for PA-18 Supercub aircraft standard gross weights, and to 2000 pounds with an up gross kit.

Click to expand...

Interesting. Does this mean that Aerocet is offering a 2000# up gross kit for cubs? My understanding was that Wip's 2000# STC only applied to the Wip floats and could not be utilized for any other brand. I suppose one could go to CC for the 2300# kit but, one from aerocet might be a whole lot more affordable. Anybody know?

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Aerocet did the same thing with their 3500 floats saying a 180 was legal to 3190# if the plane had a Kenmore gross weight kit installed. The Kenmore kit specifically limits the gross weight eligibility to EDO 2960s. I never understood why Kenmore didn't challenge Aerocet.

I wonder if the STC will be retroactive to floats built prior to the STC issue, or what the date of the PMA is. I know a guy who's had Aerocets for some time waiting for the STC issue. But I knew guys with pre-STC Bushwheels that couldn't use their tires, too.

Stewart

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I don't think an STC can be retroactive because the parts would need to be built under a PMA. It may be possible to aerocet to have the parts inspected to see if they apply to the PMA/design standards.

Tim

I flew with Pete in his C180 and he has a set of Aerocet floats. They looked very nice. If I need a new set of floats I know where to look now. I would expect to hear nothing but good things about these floats.

I was quoted $26,000 + shipping and crating for the 2200's.
Think the experimental 2200's were 11K couple of years ago.

Mike

Got a revised quote for 2200's certified. $21,900 + shipping, crating.

As a proud new owner of Aercet 3500's on my 182, I can say they are a nice float. The big flat tops, no cables to trip on the tops, huge storage compartments, and fast. Very nice, and I would assume the 2200's are the same. Time will tell how the composite last over the years, but I understand that they have had working sets in Alaska for 10 years without problems.

We had some Aerocet's on a 185 in WA in about '95....they were awesome! No metal float would've taken the abuse they did and not needed rebuilt.
John

Aerocet 2200 Super Cub PA-18

Introductory price is indeed $21,900 + crating and shipping.
There are a few sets of 2200's out there that were built to the TSO Pre-STC. If they have data tags they are legal I believe. if not.....NOT. I haven't seen the full paperwork package yet but my understanding is that they simply approved the 2200 installation to operate to 2000 pounds assuming a PA-18 is legal there. I think Compatibility with various STCs is UP TO THE INSTALLER and the Verbiage in the STCs as always.
The EDO weight affidavit says the 89A-2000 weighs 263 lbs rigged for a PA-18 so barring some huge lies on either side the weight is very close. My observation is probably obvious: The Aerocet should offer much more floatation, has the huge flat top, same huge hatch lid/openings as 3500 (12.5x20.5"), a fluted hull, stainless rudder posts, extruded struts, and like other Aerocets, shouldn't need paint for many years if ever.

Thanks for the info Jeff! (or is it Richard?).

wish I had the $$$ right now. Another year.

George

You're welcome. Id like to have a set or two myself, especially at that price. Thanks to Steve for starting this topic.
It will be interesting to get comments on actual performance as time goes along. there are a good handful of experimental 12s, 14s and 18s locally that are running this float with seemingly excellent results over the last couple years. I know the current and previous owner of the local glastar that's been running the 2200 and I think I'm OK to speak for them that they like the float well but there isn't much to compare them with in that case being a unique/uncommon airframe. I don't have any real specific performance feedback to pass on at this point except that Ive heard two owners indicate that the float was very significantly/surprisingly fast in cruise. Ive also personally seen an experimental 12 loaded to roughly gross (around 2300 lbs) on this float. It looked very comfortable in the water. It performed great too but then we are talking about a Highly souped up O-360 in that bird. Ive got a set or two here at Seaplanes North if anyone wants to look at some in person.
Jeff

When will the 2200"s be cerified for PA-12 installation?

I would just say we cant make any promises at this point on the 12. There aren't specific plans that I know of to work on it.
Also I was remiss in not putting the fact out there that we are still technically held up on the PMA for the rigging even for PA-18s. That should be done any day though per a conversation with Aerocet just a minute ago.
Jeff

floats

My cub a PA-18 has a STC'd gross weight increase at 2000# for the Wipline floats. I know that another brand like Edo could be put on, but I would have a gross weight for only 1750# with them. They do not have the STC yet that I know of for the 2000# increase.
So if I went for the Aerocet 2200 float, I would be facing the same problem. If I were ramp checked and over the 1750# with a float other than the wipline, I would be in trouble.
Is this the case? I have been looking for a set of Straight Wiplines for about 6 months and have not found one good set of used ones yet.

Bill

The Wiplines have very poor directional stability when mounted on a PA-18.

Where ever you would go to get ramped checked on floats, I would stay the heck away from. Some people worry about the gross weight WAY to much.

57cub said:

Where ever you would go to get ramped checked on floats, I would stay the heck away from. Some people worry about the gross weight WAY to much.

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Return from fishing

Friday Harbor

LHD

Sitka, Juneau, Ketchikan...

About anywhere selling gas

Sor 57, dumb comment for people that use planes as transportation

Oh boy, lets be nice and stick to the topic of floats. Were only three letters away from this being kicked over to Rant and Rave.

Cub_Driver

I've been ramp checked MANY more times on floats than I have on wheels. Once in Fort Yukon, fer cryin out loud. And, insurance is perhaps a bigger issue than the FAA for some.

As noted, the Wip "One Ton Cub" GW increase stc requires Wip floats for that 2000 lb GW on floats. So, the GW of a Cub on Aerocets will be 1760 UNLESS Aerocet certifies the airplane/installation to 2000, which should be noted in the stc.

Note that 1760 is the Cub GW, not 1750.

So, you get ten pounds for free.... :lol:

MTV

I've always wondered about Aerocet's so-called "piggy back" on the Kenmore 180 gross weight STC. I've asked several Aerocet owners to provide the exact wording of this "piggy back" to see how Aerocet referred to Kenmore's mod (nobody ever produced the text). Now with the 2000# Cub issue and with the response that Seaplanes' Jeff provided, I believe the fog has lifted for me.

I haven't seen the full paperwork package yet but my understanding is that they simply approved the 2200 installation to operate to 2000 pounds assuming a PA-18 is legal there. I think Compatibility with various STCs is UP TO THE INSTALLER and the Verbiage in the STCs as always.

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If a Wip 2000# Cub is legal on Wip floats and the installer finds that another brand of float is equal to Wips, it would be the installer's responsibility to determine compatibility. I assume installers are using the same logic with the 180's 3190# Kenmore mod (specific to 2960s) when installing Aerocet 3500L floats. It makes perfect sense. Thanks for the comment, Jeff.

Stewart

No offense, but I think the FAA would have a problem allowing someone to use Wip's One Ton STC to apply to someone else's Float STC.

It is my understanding that Wip provided the FAA with engineering to support 1) the conclusion that the PA-18 airframe could support 2000 pounds and 2) that "its own, and only its own, float structure and attachment gear" would also support the airframe at 2000 pound gross.

Aerocet would have to provide the same engineering documentation to the FAA as to its float and attachment gear if you would want to put Aerocets on a -18 with Wip's 2000 pound kit. Otherwise, the plane's gross is what's in the TCDS.

And as an aside, I think Atlee's 60 gal tank STC explicitly prohibits operation above the amount in the TCDS.

mvivion said:

I've been ramp checked MANY more times on floats than I have on wheels. Once in Fort Yukon, fer cryin out loud. And, insurance is perhaps a bigger issue than the FAA for some.

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Mike, have the boundaries of ramp checks changed from license and medical to include more? I thought they had to have "cause" to go further if you did not want them to.

sj

Steve,

I've never had them go further than documents. But, I have seen them request a pilot to weigh everything in the plane, after an aborted takeoff attempt. What would have happened if the pilot had said no???? Dunno.

In any case, turns out he was legal. Really crappy engine.

Also, they CAN, and have in my experience, request to see the maintenance records for the airplane.

They have the authority to verify that the operation is legal. Wherever that goes.

MTV

mvivion said:

Also, they CAN, and have in my experience, request to see the maintenance records for the airplane.

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This makes some sense for 135, etc, but if I am in California, am I supposed to have my maintenance records available for a ramp check?

sh

The can request to see logs, but must provide adequate time..

Meaning they can say bring them in, but not produce them now.

As far as cause: how 'bout two guys in a two seat plane on floats other than wips?

How about a cub with two guys and gear on floats and fuel?

What about that spreader bar touching the water?

STMAWR14 said:

No offense, but I think the FAA would have a problem allowing someone to use Wip's One Ton STC to apply to someone else's Float STC.

It is my understanding that Wip provided the FAA with engineering to support 1) the conclusion that the PA-18 airframe could support 2000 pounds and 2) that "its own, and only its own, float structure and attachment gear" would also support the airframe at 2000 pound gross.

Aerocet would have to provide the same engineering documentation to the FAA as to its float and attachment gear if you would want to put Aerocets on a -18 with Wip's 2000 pound kit. Otherwise, the plane's gross is what's in the TCDS.

And as an aside, I think Atlee's 60 gal tank STC explicitly prohibits operation above the amount in the TCDS.

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Does the Wip STC allow 2000# on wheels? If so, the mod must not be dependent on their floats. The same would be true for the Kenmore mod on my 180. Regardless, the wording of most STCs allows/requires the mechanic to make the compatibility decision and take final responsibility.

Your reference to Atlee's tanks is an excellent example of what we're talking about. From the STC document that resides in my logs....

The approval of this change in type design applies to the basic Piper PA-12, PA-12S, and PA-14 airplanes only. This approval does not apply to aircraft of these models on which modifications that increase wing span, wing area, or maximum gross weight are incorporated. This approval should not be extended to other aircraft of these models on which other previously approved modifications are incorporated unless it is determined by the installer that the modifications will introduce no adverse effect on the airworthiness of such aircraft.

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So while the initial language seemed to close the door on the mod combos, in the same paragraph the door is opened wide for the combination of mods at the installer's discretion.

How are you doing? I recall reading about an accident. I hope all's well. The skis work great!

Stewart

Somewhat different deal, Stewart. The Wip STC includes a part that must be added to the landing gear to be legal at 2000. I don't believe this is true of the Kenmore stc.

But, the point remains that unless Aerocet has flight tested and documented THEIR floats and attach gear at 2000 pounds, I doubt if the Wip stc could be legally applied to their floats. These are different floats, with different angles, probably, etc. I suspect flight test to document engine cooling, climb rate, and ESPECIALLY noise, would be required. Noise is now probably one of the hardest certification things to comply with, particularly on floats.

And, it would be a huge leap for a mechanic to just assume the attach gear was adequate for operations at 2000 and the aircraft will perform adequately, UNLESS it's documented in the stc.

MTV

All set to buy a set of the Aerocet 2200's at their quoted price of $21,900 but it seems they just raised the price this week to $25,500 plus shipping.

Mike