New Rifle

I just went down yesterday and bought a new Marlin .45-70 "Guide Gun" and was hoping that there are some folks who have some knowledge and experience with this particular rifle or at the least the Caliber. I have purchased several boxes of (very expensive) Buffalo Bore ammo; 350 grain, 430 grain and 500 grain bullets.

What I am wondering is what kind of range can a guy expect from this gun? It is a carbine, hardly the long barrel version of a Creed-moor or Sharps.

I am asking because obviously the 45-70 or maybe 45-90 has made some great shots out at range, but through different barrels. What can I expect for range with the short 18.5" barrel on the Marlin?

Interestingly, I found that I asked three different noted gun dealers in Anchorage the VERY same question, and got three VERY different answers, and with many different explanations why.

I got it for a Bear gun/Brush gun, which is what it essentially is, but I would like to know the range capabilities should a long-range opportunity present itself. Haven't had much chance to shoot it a lot though after shooting it a few times I have discovered this rifle packs a punch and certainly would put a bear down!

I thought about adding this post onto the Bear Protection thread but I was hoping for some more specific answers so I decided to put it off by itself.

Incidentally on that note, I have a Ruger .454 Casull that I carry as a side-arm for Bear; which I purchased only after shooting a guide friend of mine's Ruger .454 which I found to be unbelievably accurate and didn't break my hand like HIS buddy's .500 Ultra or Whatever Mag thingy did when I shot it. I've since banged away at paper plates with moderate success with this gun (.454) at 100 yards, though if I'm shooting a Bear at 100 yards it certainly isn't self defense...:lol:

Thanks for the help...

RB

I have this same rifle in stainless, but have not shot it yet. Y'all please give this nice man and me some feedback.

I've had a marlin straight grip .45-70 for 10 years. I have loaded 350 gn barnes and 400 grain speer bullets. I have a ghost sight and fiber optic front sight- I think it kicks harder than my .300 win mag.

I have never used it on a game animal, but I have no doubt it would be very effective. I have carried for bear protection but have never had to use it. I have talked to people who have shot black bear with it, and they told me "it turns them inside out"- whatever that means!

As to range, I have no doubt it would cleanly kill a caribou or moose as effectively as my .300 out to 150 yds.- probably out to 200 yards. I now wear glasses so I prefer a scope, but with a bench rest my marlin will group 1.5 to 2 inches at 100 yards. I think it is a great gun; bullet drop is not a problem if you compensate for it.

A good place to start for reloading info is the small spiral reloading manual called "one book/one caliber". They cost about $8 and have multiple loads and bullets.

Loads for the marlin .45-70 should not be used in the trapdoor rifles, of course. There is different info regarding the strength of the marlin action. Some books indicate the ruger #1 is the strongest, but if you look into published info the marlin is good to 40,000 CUP. Some references list 28,000 CUP but look up the pressures for the 444 marlin or other modern cartridges for the 1895 action. Loaded up it is a real thumper! The gunsmiths at Great Western Guns should be a great resource. Good Luck!

I have this rifle(stainless) also. I have put on a large lever and a peep sight, both from Wild West Guns. As far as ballistics/range, well mine is "set" for 30+/- yards. That is with remington 405 grain bullets. To be realistic go to a store and "browse" the Speer handloading book for reasonable range energy numbers.

Like you said 100 yrds is pretty far out for self defense, and those flat nosed bullets are like shoving Volkswagons out the barrel, the new pointed Hornady are quite the deal, might want to give those a try.

I have never shot a game animal with my Marlin 45-70. I carry it for bear protection and hand load for it as well as buy the hot loads fomr big game or whatever their name is.

Since i carry it for protection, i do practice with it every chance I get. At 100 yds. I dont think I would have much of a problem hitting a moose with a clean shot at 150 to 200 yards reliably (mine is open site as well). At 100 yards im getting 1.5 to 2 inch groups.

Damon

RB

Modern powders burn faster then the old black powder that the 45 70 used in its original design. There is no need for the long barrel mater of fact using modern powders in a barrel over 26" is a detriment to velocity. The extra length of drag will slow the bullet down due to all the powder has been burned. Your shorter barrel gun will not be as efficient due to the fact much of the powder is being burned outside of the barrel. To get a idea of you energy I would suggest looking at a reloading chart and see what they have for velocity, bullet drop and energy. The barrel length used in there testing will be noted also. Rule of thumb is for every inch your barrel is shorter then the testers you will need to deduct 50 feet per sec of velocity. If your barrel is longer then the testers add 50 fps for every inch of extra barrel up to 26". Once you know your velocity the ballistic charts will give you bullet drop and the energy at a given range.

The Hornady book I have indicated a 350 grain bullet can be loaded (for your rifle) to a velocity of 1900 fps from a 22" barrel. Your rifle will push that bullet at 1700 feet per sec creating almost 1770 foot pounds of energy at 50 yards and about 1400 foot pounds of energy at 100 yards. At 200 yards your bullet has slowed to 1100 fps and has 919 foot pounds of energy left. At 200 yards the bullet has dropped 18.5" assuming you where zero at 100 yards.

Velocity is not everything, bullet design is also important some bullets are designed to release there energy quickly and will not give the deep penetration needed for bear stopping power. The greater the sectional density of the bullet the deeper the penetration and bone breaking ability of the bullet.

Cub_Driver

RB,

Neat rifle, devastating results on deer (my only experience on a game animal).

Go to www.realguns.com. That fellow has some loads worked up for the .45-70 that work well. One word of advice: Do not make the mistake my dad did and get Accurate - 7 powder instead of Reloader 7 powder. The resulting effect is a small "pop" with 1895 G. shrapnel flying everywhere! Got lucky and didn't get hurt, but should have. The factory replaced the rifle, free of charge. Good outfit.

gb

Everything that can be said has been said about what type of gun to use for bear protection. I only mention this as information for those that are contemplating purchasing a weapon for said use. I recently read an article and I don't remember where (I read a lot.) but it claimed that people with pistols do better in bear encounters. Why? If a bear attacks you they usually are not slow about it. You don't have time to go grab your rifle. Their claim was that if you have a piston on you that you can wield it better while the bear is attacking. It said that while it may not kill the bear that often times it is enough to get the bear to break off of its attack. Said that rifles are too hard to wield close in. I carry a P220 .45 Sig Sauer for that reason. Been doing it for years and I see a lot of bears. Again, I am not trying to start some crazy, drawn out discussion. Just something I read that I wanted to pass on.

I shot a 60 inch moose from 100 yds with my 45-70 350 gr hornady hand loads (pretty hot), I can look up the amount/type of powder if any one is interested. Dropped it like a rock. I didn't have time to find the bullet as Mr. Brown was roaming nearby and the wife was a little nervous -as I was.
Great gun but I wish I had the stainless model.
Matt

Thanks folks, this is exactly what I was looking for. Real numbers and such, Homerroid and Cub_Driver especially, thanks for the specific info.

As far as bear protection Torch, I am mostly thumping bears anywhere between usually 15-100 yards the few times I have been with clients, and so my pistol isn't the best ticket for me all the time. Though I agree with you that a long gun can surely get unwieldy in close FAST encounters. That's why I have a double action .454 Casull. And that's another trait that I really like about the Marlin Guide Gun, it is a carbine and hence pretty short.

I plan first chance I get to go out and really try and get some good numbers of my own; only I was hoping to get some such experiences and info before I headed out. So thanks!

And in reference to the ammo, I am REALLY pleased with the Buffalo Bore ammo, they are loaded super hot and in my .454 Casull with 360 grain Solid Lead it went completely through a 18" thick stump, something I couldn't get any OTHER round to do and I tried CorBon, Federal, and one other I can't remember. The Buffalo Bore .45-70 in 430 grain are rated for 2000 fps muzzle and the 350 are said to be 2100 or so though I may have got the numbers switched.

Thanks again folks.

RB

Just got back from a Polar Bear vacation up at Churchill. I have the ghost ring sights with a colored blade on the front on my guide gun. For the most part they are excellent. I like brick-shit-house stout equipment and the sights may be a little more fragile than factory. I could see a blow to the ghost ring bending it or snapping it off.

http://www.xssights.com/store/pix/catalog/rifle/rifle-gr-top.jpg

I can snap shoot a 9" paper plate at 25 yards pretty accurate and consistently. On a sand bag I can get tennis ball sized groups with these non precision sights using the el-cheapo Remington Hollow Points. For defense carry I have Corbon 300 grain flats which seem ok. Actually Horandy makes a pointed bullet which carries well beyond the normal expectations of readily available ammo of the past. With a scope I would take game out to 200 yards using this stuff. I'd post a few pictures but my camera is on the bottom of an uncharted lake south of Gods Lake Narrows Manitoba.

http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=198

RedBaron said:

As far as bear protection Torch, I am mostly thumping bears anywhere between usually 15-100 yards with clients, and so a pistol isn't best ticket for me all the time. Though I agree with you that a long gun can surely get unwieldy in close FAST encounters. That's why I have a double action .454 Casull. And that's another trait that I really like about the Marlin Guide Gun, it is a carbine and hence pretty short.





RB

Click to expand...

RB,

Sounds like you have the right gun for the right job. That gun packs a wallop.

I have hunted with my guide gun for ten plus years, and have been successful with Whitetail and Caribou at two hundred yards. I have Wild west rear sight and the enlarged lever for very cold weather. The Marlin rear sight was useless for me, but the ghost rings with a Williams insert curred that. I have had many working guns over the years, and this one is a keeper. Remember..."beware of the man with only one gun; it's likely he knows how to use it."

Torch said:

Their claim was that if you have a piston on you that you can wield it better while the bear is attacking. It said that while it may not kill the bear that often times it is enough to get the bear to break off of its attack.

Click to expand...

Now Torch, would that be a 8.5:1 factory or a 9:1 or 10:1 high compression Piston? :lol:

Sorry, you know I'm just kidding Torch, I haven't met ya yet but think you're an especially fine fellow; but I couldn't resist, not on this site of fine folk...

RB

new rifle

Howdy Andy, I have one of those Co-Pilot guide guns that Wild West puts together, so far I have shot 4 black bears ( one in self defense Willy Dog caught him snicking up on us) one brownie & a nice Moose all with devastating results! mostly one shot. use the bigger bullets & stay under 100 yard shots the closer the better! the knock down power will impress you!

Hey Dano! How you been old buddy?

Thanks for the added info, I did a tiny bit of research myself (ref. Wild West guns) and really to be honest I am nothing short of amazed at the stories produced by this little rifle-with a big hole at the end.
It appears as if I have stumbled into owning a superb all-around big-game killer; That's not entirely true, I've always wanted an all-around lever rifle, I just never got around to it.

Here is just one of the great stories, 11 ft. Bear dead in ONE shot at 80-100 yds? Check it out...

http://www.wildwestguns.com/Gallery/A_Kamchatka_Bear/a_kamchatka_bear.html

BlackFly,

It was your reference to the "ghostsight" that brought about this info, and Thanks. I am getting that sight next chance I get! I got very comfortable with the peep-style rear apurture in the military.

The only downside I have found so far is that two days after shooting this Rifle my shoulder is still sore.

RB

Expensive, but truly well thought out and built: Brockman's Beast.

375HandH

If anyone is needing a 375 H&H I have a brand new one for sale that has never been shot. Its a Remington SS 700 topped off with a Carl Zeiss scope. I will even throw in a hard case. $1500.00 and we can sight it in before you leave my house.

Cub_Driver

gbflyer said:

......... One word of advice: Do not make the mistake my dad did and get Accurate - 7 powder instead of Reloader 7 powder. The resulting effect is a small "pop" with 1895 G. shrapnel flying everywhere! Got lucky and didn't get hurt, but should have. The factory replaced the rifle, free of charge. Good outfit. gb

Click to expand...

Which factory replaced the rifle-- Marlin, Hercules (Alliant), or Accurate? No offense, but using the wrong powder sounds like pilot (reloader) error to me. Not the powder or rifle mfr's fault the firearm failed if an improper load was used.

Rooster

My youngest son and my neighbor both bought Marlin 45-70 guide guns a couple years back. My neighbor had a scout scope installed on his...
I sighted both of them at first with standard low pressure factory loads..

Then we used Buffalo Bore factory loads for the final scope and sight settings...
HOLY SMOKES,,, that Buffalo Bore stuff is pretty hot. The trajectory was much flatter...

I was able to get a 1.5 inch group at 100 yards using the scout scope (2.5x Leupold) ... Making a 200 yard shot with that ammo on a moose would be no big deal...

I am used to shooting black powder strength loads for my old 45-70 and 45-90 1886s... The rainbow trajectory makes proper range judgment a real factor. My 50-90 Sharps also tends to have a pretty fair arc while lobbing a 600 grain bullet.

The factory loaded Buffalo Bore stuff even has a different primer pocket. They use a small rifle primer and the case head is re-enforced... I cut one in half just to see what they did...

From the buffalo Bore Web site...


.45-70 Magnum
Lever Gun Printed Order Form


Item 8A: 430 gr. L.B.T.- L.F.N. - G.C. (1925 fps / M.E. 3537 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 2500 lbs. - Penetrator Load) Per Box of 20
$46.19
Order Now!

Item 8B: 405 gr. J.F.N. (2000 fps / M.E. 3597 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 1000 lbs. - Expander Load) Per Box of 20
$45.14
Order Now!
Item 8C: 350 gr. J.F.N. (2150 fps / M.E. 3592 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 2500 lbs. - Penetrator Load) Per Box of 20
$45.14
Order Now!


Item 8D:
500 gr. FMJFN (1625 fps /M.E. 2931 ft. lbs.)
A non-expanding Full Metal Jacket bullet designed for the
deepest penetration on the largest game animals. Per Box of 20
$56.69
Order Now!
Item 8E: 300gr. Speer Uni Core @ 2350 fps (3678 ft. lbs.)
(Big Game up to 500 lbs. - Expander Load) Per Box of 20
$45.14
Order Now!



Exterior Ballistics

Item 8A 100yds (0) 150yds (-4) 200yds (-11) 250yds (-24)
Item 8B 100yds (0) 150yds (-4) 200yds (-11) 250yds (-23)
Item 8C 100yds (0) 150yds (-3) 200yds (-10) 250yds (-20)
Item 8D 100yds (0) 150yds (-6) 200yds (-17) 250yds (-33)
Item 8E 100 yds (0) 150yds (-2) 200yds (-8) 250yds (-18)

All the above velocities are recorded from factory stock Marlin rifles with 22" barrels.

When using Marlin Guide Guns with 18.5" barrels deduct an average of 50 fps with the above loads.

We use only factory stock firearms in recording velocities, so that you get true, actual field velocities with our ammo --- not exaggerated test barrel velocities

All .45-70 Magnum loadings are intended for use in the following firearms:
All Marlin Model 1895 variations made since 1972
Browning Model 1885 and 1886
New England Arms Handi-Rifle
Ruger #1 and #3
T/C Encore
Shiloh, Christian and Pedersoli Sharps
New Production Winchester 1886



The 500 gr. load uses a dual diameter, bonded core bullet by Alaska Bullet Works. The bullet diameter in front of the crimp groove is .449 inch, while measuring .457 inch on the shank. This dual diameter allows for reliable chambering in rifles with short or no throats. This is a non-expanding Full Metal Jacket bullet designed for the deepest penetration on the largest game animals. This load is safe for use in any firearm designed for the other BBA .45/70 MAG. LEVER GUN cartridges

new rifle

Andy where did you find that buffalo bore ammo? I want to try it out, I've been shooting 45-70 for practice & hunting with Wild West 457 mag stuff with good results but its 69.00 bucks a box

Alex, found it at Great Northern Guns on Tudor up in Los Anchorage. Boondocks might carry it and maybe Sportsmans warehouse.

We paid $40 a box I think... I am going to use the brass for a handload that is a little cooler, around 1800 fps for a 405 grain....

Alex

new rifle

Thanks a bunch Alex I will be in your AO next month & stop in

I've been using the Cor Bon 405 and 460 grain 45-70 rounds in a Wild West modified guide gun for years. No complaint - except for losing the site hood a few times.


GR

new rifle

I had the same issue with mine! Jim West drilled & pinned my hood on, problem solved!

That Buffalo bore ammo appears to be pretty impressive. I compared the 350 grain bullet ballistics Alex posted to a 458 win mag ballistics in the Hornady reloading book. The buffalo bore ammo is within 300 fps of the 458 plus Hornady tested there 458 ammo in a 25" barreled rifle.

Cub_Driver

Alex,

Good numbers and thanks for the detailed ballistics on the Buffalo Bore stuff, it really is impressive!
I was first impressed by the Buffalo Bore 360 grainers in .454 Casull that I shot, unbelievable penetration (solid cast) and hurt my hand more than any other pistol round on the market; ie bad for practice, but good for the real thing... So it follows that their big-bore .45-70 is in the same class. Great ammo, but it isn't cheap either.

Dano I got a bunch of boxes of Buffalo Bore from both Boondocks and also Great Northern Guns, comes in a bright yellow box; Sportsmans Wearhouse did not have it in .45-70 last I checked (last week).

Alex,
I understand that they went to the smaller primer because there were a few magazine explosions (in the tube magazines) when a cartridge got cock-eyed somehow in the magazine. With the smaller primer on Buffalo Bore, it makes it much more difficult to detonate for obvious reasons.

Reloading using Buffalo Bore brass and primers, now that would be the way to go.


RB

I have some 12 Bore brass made by the Ballard Rifle company. They use rifle primers instead of shotgun primers and the brass is much thicker.

I originally ordered all-brass 12 gauge hulls for my old Tobin SxS 12 gauge and my old 1897 Winchester for cowboy shooting. Using black powder or pyrodex and only waxing over the ends....

But they sent this super heavy brass with rifle primer pockets instead. So I called them and they said they accidentally sent brass for 12 Bore elephant guns... thus the thicker brass and smaller primers...

So I kept it and have been using it in my old shotguns for close target work... It will never wear out....

Alex

I have a 1886 win I see you mentioned they can shoot Buffalo ammo. Any idea what year of production they should be before shooting BB ammo?

Cub_Driver

They are talking about the newer Browning (Japanese made) Model 86s.
Browning put there name on them for a few years, (I have one in carbine form) and later they were marketed under the Winchester logo (US repeating arms) ... They will have the Japanese manufacture mark someplace on the barrel.

The old original REAL Winchester 1886s (1886 to 1935) would be suicide to shoot those hot loads....