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J3, PA 11, and Champ

Samsam

Registered User
I've been toying with the idea of buying a small classic plane. Three planes keep on peaking my interest: J3, PA-11 and Aeronca Champ. I know that some posters here have real world experience flying 2 or all 3 of these planes and give impartial ;D feedback. Ideally, the plane to have a c90, and electric (starter/nav light). I fly mostly solo, no real X-country, just flying about low and slow, enjoying the countryside. I really like the clamshell door/window of the piper and I think an STC exist for the champ. The Champ seems a lot easier to go in/out of, but the Piper has the better lines.
What's your take on these planes? Does one of these plane really stand out compared to the other?
 
J-3,PA-11, Champ

Champ will be the less expensive of the three, however control harmony is not that of the Pipers. J-3 with those kind of mods might be difficult to find, PA-11's are not that plentiful. All are fun. Just my opinion.
Buy the best one you can afford, it will pay benefits in reduced maintenance and more time flying instead of fixing.
 
I agree 100% with DGrimm. I own a J-3 and a Super Decathlon. Control harmony on the Cubs beats all but the new experimentals.

A properly set up C85 or 90 can be hand-propped from behind. Wood props help that endeavor immensely. Get some instruction - I'd be happy to show you how to start safely.
 
Have a J3 and a PA11 and am the happy ex owner of a champ. For low and slow you can't beat the J3 or the PA11.
 
bob turner said:
A properly set up C85 or 90 can be hand-propped from behind. Wood props help that endeavor immensely.

OK, how does a wood prop help? Thicker trailing edge more comfortable to pull on?
 
I agree with Roger. When I chose to go with Sport Pilot rules, I let the medical expire, sold my Cessna, and looked at Champs and J-3's. Went to the Horn Point, MD antique aircraft fly-in, and looked at the Champs and a gaggle of Cubs. About 5 Champs, and 15 Cubs. Most of the fun, and crowd interest, was around those yellow machines!

Being open minded, and having learned to fly in a Champ 7AC in the first place, I found one to try, and took a flight. Then I went to look at a 1940 J-3, and got a demo ride. Never looked back. Flew 1.8 hours today, only went from Front Royal to Winchester, VA, did landings, chased another J-3 that took off while I was there, cut him off at the pass and took some air-to-air shots, followed the river south, and went home happy.
Just my take on it. Lots of advantages to the Champ - it was designed to overcome complaints instructors had about the J-3.
Chuck Shaw
N26818
 
Clyde, I got the PA11 set up for floats and fly it from the Gulf Coast to Canada in the spring and back in the fall. However, I think I will recover my J3 and sell it as my wife has a 172 and we have trouble keeping everything in the air.
 
Have some time in a 7FC Champ converted to a 7EC. Great airplane, flies great in TX in the hot summer with 2 people. Takes a little more rudder for cordinated flight.

J3 is a great airplane. Not as comfortable but flies better than the Champ. A light J3 is probably my favorite airplane to just put around in.

PA11 is a sweet plane. Nice to be able to fly from the front and has a little more room. Problem is they are hard to find.

Bottom line I would take which ever I found the best example of that fit my budget. All continue to go up in price and are more fun than you should be able to have. :D
 
I guess that means you don't want to sell the PA-11?? We have decided that if we don't find a J-3 equipped like the one Sam B. sold recently or a good PA-11 by the end of January, we are going to buy a WAG aero fast build kit and get busy on it. I'd rather be flying than building but building may be the only way to get what we want. ...Clyde
 
Wood props are easier to hand start because of the trailing edge, as you suggest. Infinitely easier . . .

If you have the budget for Sam's J-3, you can most likely have a perfect one delivered to your doorstep this week. A flyable J-3 is under 30, and absolute perfection starts around 35. Load a bunch of heavy stuff in there and you might be better off with a Champ or an Ercoupe.

The best flying Cubs hereabouts are the lightest ones, with stock gear and no VGs. And generally 160 HP.
 
So I go up to OKV this morning, and as I taxi back, this Cub is taking off.

DSC_2421N7233Htakeoff.jpg


Where you going? Up. OK, see you there.

DSC_2425RayWinchester.JPG


J-3's low and slow in the sunshine. I rest my case!
 
Roger Peterson said:
Go to http://sparky.supercub.org/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=648
We build the fuselages for wag and there are some shots of the jigs. My PA11 is a Wag Fuselage and Dakota Cub Wings. Balanced elevators and electric trim. 2 12 gal tanks and a souped up 0-200.

Rog


I need to talk to you about a Cub. Susan just said, "lets go down there". I'd like to see if you can come up with anything close to your PA-11. ...Clyde
 
samsam:

Three great airplanes, three great choices. I'm really biased because I get to fly a PA-11 a lot. It is serial number 130 and has a C-90. Modifications are minimal--Atlee Dodge fuel system, shoulder harnesses, VGs, metal baggage, better seat cushions and safety cables. I swing a metal prop and have no qualms about hand-starting (simple).

The airplane is easy to start, easy to fly, economical and easy to maintain. It flies like a J-3 with ooomph (new term). It is more comfortable than the J-3 and the view from the front seat is spectacular. It is faster than the J-3, which (combined with the seats) makes low and slow cross country flights that much faster and a lot more comfortable (plus you have a great view).

I love the way it flies. Performance-wise it's like a little Super Cub. I just can't go as fast. Short takeoffs, short landings and nimble flight are the rule of the day, though. Plus it qualifies under the LSA rules. All in all--for me--the "perfect" airplane.

Downside--they are tough to find. Mine was a worn out beater that required a total restoration. But it was sure worth it. Good J-3s are getting hard to find, too. Lots of good Champs out there and the comments in these posts are right on the mark.
 
I have had a PA 11 -90 foe 15 years and its a pleasure to fly. I operate about 95% of time off airport. I land in places all the time that that don't exeed 400 ft. It depends on what type of flying you plan on doing.I did have to laugh the other day though when my pilot friend and I were watching Big Rocks 2 and they had the short field take off and landing at Valdez. All the cubs were taking off short and then a champ took off and it looked like it took him forever.My pilot friend and I are working on recovering a champ right now , but ocasionally I send him a picture of a cub to remind him what he really needs.
 
Thanks for all the great feedback. I haven't run across too many pa-11s. When I do, it seems that they want such a premium that buying a PA-12 makes more sense. (I want to keep it in the $40-ish range)
I don't plan on doing off airport landings, except for the occasional beach landing (no trees, flat as a pancake). Otherwise, it is going to be long grass strips and regular airports.
 
I've flown all three planes, but mostly J-3's and a PA-11. I prefer the J-3 and think the 11 could benefit from a thrustline mod. The 11 is a lot faster than the 3 though.

Bill Kelly has a Wag-Aero J-3 Cuby for sale in Helena, Arkansas. 178 hours, with a C-85-12F and electric start. No alternator -- just a lightweight battery. It has 6" Clevelands and toe brakes. Metal prop, but I don't know which one. Phone 870-338-7040 from 9 to 5 Central time.
 
Roger Peterson said:
Go to http://sparky.supercub.org/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=648
We build the fuselages for wag and there are some shots of the jigs. My PA11 is a Wag Fuselage and Dakota Cub Wings. Balanced elevators and electric trim. 2 12 gal tanks and a souped up 0-200.

Rog

Great pictures Roger! Makes me want to come see you. Please let us know when your next fly-in takes place. If I'm not flying by then, I'll bring the Harley!
 
OK, I'm biased but...

J3: Positive - 'Cool' factor is high. You can tool around at 60mph, door open, and enjoy the (slowly) passing scenery. They're light, offering really short-field performance and nice handling.

J3: Negative - Back seat solo. No room for even average men, to say nothing about big men (or women). Ergonomically, they suck from end to end of the flight - you can't get in, they're uncomfortable to sit in, there's no headroom or elbow room, and you can't get back out (even though you *really* want to after three hours!). They're expensive unless truly ragged out.

Pa-11: Better ergonomics than the '3, faster. Dang near as expensive as an entry-level Super Cub, though!

Champ: Positive - Speedier (less slow?) than a Cub with the same engine. Roomy! Lots of headroom and elbow room. You can actually get into one without being double jointed in legs and arms. The door opens and you step in and out. Back seat of some is huge. With the later 7EC, you have 26 gallons of gas and can carry it *and* a passenger - I'm over 180 and can carry full fuel and a 150-160 pound passenger w/o any baggage. The Champ *has* room for baggage. They're generally $6-10 thousand less expensive to buy than a comparable Cub ($16-20 less than a PA-11). Champs, especially with the Hanlon-Wilson exhaust, have heaters that actually work! Winter flying is possible and even enjoyable.

Champ: Negative - no 'Cool' factor like the Cub. Heavier controls, especially the ailerons. Longer landings and takeoff - but not that much longer. Landing gear is not as good for skis and/or rough fields. The tail is heavy, making it harder to move by hand on the ground. The whole airplane is heavier than a Cub by 100-200 pounds. The useful load is as good and usually better than a Cub, though. You need an STC (cheap!) to fly with the door off and have no way to carry the door in the aircraft, so you have to leave it at home.

Any of the 3 is a hoot to fly on wheels or skis. On floats, the PA-11 is probably the best of the bunch, with the Champ at the bottom. None is a real load carrier on floats, though.

My 7EC will land in 200 feet (if the wind, temperature, field and I are all in sync) and take off in around 300. That's at the very light end. Loaded to gross weight, you can add 200 feet to both. Still decent, though. With a C-90, 74 x 42 prop and cool air, the climb angle is pretty impressive. As one fellow said, "You've got a helicopter!" On hot days, with a load, you'll wonder what happened to the other 50 horses up front. Bill was duly unimpressed with his ride at New Holstein, I think. I did have one weak (dead?) cylinder at that time, though. I replaced it a week later, and the performance improved dramatically.

Jon B.
 
>J3: Negative - Back seat solo.<

Good post, Jon, though I consider that a J-3 Positive, and usually soloed the 11 from the rear seat as well.

JimC
 
My J-3 can be legally soloed from either seat. In fact, at the 20 hour point, I got a duster pilot to ride in the front seat while I transitioned to the back. Darn guy covered the airspeed indicator. We only went around once.

Hang a metal prop on them and they probably become rear seat only - but who would do a blasphemous thing like that?
 
Bob, we've run both a wood Sensenich 7443 and a McCauley 1B90 CM 7443 on the same 85 hp J-3. With the same diameter and pitch, the metal prop was about 10 mph faster, had about a 10% shorter ground roll, and climbed substantially better. It might be blasphemy, but the metal prop performs better all the way 'round. As an aside, in either wood or metal, the 7443 is too much pitch for the 85. After trying a 41, for a metal prop I'd suggest a 40 or 41 as potentially a better pitch.
All the best,
JimC
 
bob turner said:
My J-3 can be legally soloed from either seat.

I've heard that ALL original j-3 could be flown from the front, but that one had to do a W&B to make sure that he was within the category parameter. The No Solo From the Front sitcker was added only much later because too many people flew without doing a W & B.

Any validity to this?
 
Sam - it is in the data sheets. You get out of a certain empty CG, and the placard is required.

I use a 72 GK 48 or 72 GK 50, depending. I have tried metal, but do not get the dramatic difference of which you speak. One J-3 came through here with a metal prop and it was clear it was mismatched. 65 hp - we put the 72ck 42 on it and got a dramatic increase in climb. I really haven't flown a J-3 that will cruise more than 85 mph at normal power settings, regardless of prop.
 
Don't forget to look at J-3Cs that have been converted to a PA-11 configuration. Mine is a flying Atlee Dodge advertisment.

http://sparky.supercub.org/photopos...ata/500/medium/Cub_at_mountain_base.JPG[/img]
 
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