muzzle loading

Any muzzleloader guys out there want to share some knowledge with a fledgling smokepoler??

I'm interested in tradition rifles and wonder what kits to stay away from. Also, what's the nicest stuff?

I'm thinking .50 caliber and patched balls for now. Maybe a second gun wil be .45 and conicals. Plinking, learning, then Sitka black-tails. (this will be for winter hunts, with no bears around). Advice?

Yeah, I've been surfing the web for info.

But I put a bit more trust in this airplane group than I do those other guys, though I know there is much knowledge there ( and I'm assuming there's some here :lol: )

Thanks ahead of time.

I bought a tinder-lighter kit (like a flint pistol with a candle-holder and a pan that the spark goes into so you can light the tinder and then the candle) and assembled it as a 'test-project'. I need to pick up a flint to see if the thing will spark. I'll practice some carving and ingraving on it before I start a big project.

Thanks, DAVE

Be careful of the Traditions guns with the rounded (Roman nose) stock, the comb is very high and difficult if not impossible to get a good sight picture with for most folks. I really like the Lyman Great Plains Rifle in .50 cal, it's a good rifle in kit form or factory finished. If you want real authenticy for various time periods, visit Track of the Wolf's site. Sorry I don't have the adress handy but a google would take you there. The gun I want to build is a smoothbore 20 gauge Northwest Trade Gun by Northstar West. Also for factory built rifles the Thompson Center Hawkin is hard to beat, but not real authentic. I've seen but never shot the Cabela's Blue Ridge(?) rifles and they looked like a good deal. I'd suggest staying away from the in-lines, but them I'm a traditionalist. I used to shoot a lot of cartridge guns, but now my hands-down favorite is my Lyman GPR.

Dave:
I've got 2. I made the first one, a .32 caliber, 40 years ago. It is a more or less direct copy of an original. I made most of the parts. I bought a barrel with a hole in it and then proceded to rifle it myself. I'll never do that again. I made the rifling fixture from pics and info on how the old guys used to do it. I walked a million miles going from one end to the other cleaning the shavings from the cutting bit.
I bought 4 maple stock blanks from Dixie Gun works. The lock was from them also. I made everything else.
It's pretty useless unless you want to shoot squirrels.

The second one, I started about 10 years ago. It's a .45 cal. It got put on the back burner for a while. I had to many projects I guess.
I drug it out last winter and started on it again. I learned my lesson on the first one. I bought all the parts from Dixie except the stock. I made it from one of the blanks I had.
Unless you have lots of time, go with one of the kits.
Here's a pic of the .45 cal.

Here's another one of the powder horn, loading block, nipple tool and ball bag. I made all this stuff also.

Dave:

I have a Thompson Center "Black Mountain Magnum" in .54 caliber. Mine has a 1 in 28 twist, so it won't shoot round balls worth a hoot. It's designed for mini balls, and the heavier the better. At around 405 grains, it really groups nicely. It also allegedly shoots sabots in .45 really well. I don't care for them, so I haven't tried.

If you want to shoot a .50 with patched balls, find a long barrel - 30 to 36 inches - with a slow twist. Forty-eight to 66 inches per turn is about right for balls. Some even use a 1 in 72 twist. In .50 cal, the balls are only around 200 grains or so (230 for .54 if my ailing memory is working today). They stabilize pretty easily.

In-line smokers are for guys that fly airplanes with nose wheels! Stay away from those things.

I think *real* black-powder guys shoot flint locks. I'm not that much a purist, though. They're said to be very reliable, in spite of logic that says otherwise.

Jon B.

I agree with Todd C. Quite a few years ago, I...err...Santa...bought my dad the Lyman GPR (percussion/.54) kit for Christmas. It turned out very cool, with tigerstripes burned into the stock and whatnot...it's definitely got character. I've had a T/C Hawken carbine (percussion/.50) for a while now, and I like it. Not as heavy, and handier in the thick crap, where the deer usually are. We only shoot conicals too.

My wife myself and the kids have several different muzzelloaders from T/C Hawkins long rifles, carbines, T/C Scout inline, and Modern inlines. My favorite for deer is my Hawkins longrifle 50 cal round ball with @ 80 grains of Pyrodex. Pyrodex is not as corosive and you can fire many more shots accuratley without swabbing. Smokepoles are a blast!!! Rick

Go one step further and pick up a bow and we will have tons to talk about. I have been waiting several years on this site for a bowhuntin buddy. You will never go back if you are started out correctly in archery!

Wow! I never thought I'd get this much response. Thank You!

In my first post, I meant to say "...interested in traditional rifles...". I think I'd like to do better than the "Traditions" brand. They are mass-produced for sure, and you can see it in the inletting quality for one.

I've been reading some large books in researching this stuff. Good! But more opinions are always welcome.

PA-18, I shoot a compound, but not at anything I want to kill. My wife put 'us' up to purchasing archery gear. It's fun. We are out to 40 yards pretty consistently. I can do a bit more, but not every day.

At this point, I don't see myself doing all my hunting using 'primitive' methods because I like having a high-powered repeating rifle to fend off the 'dinner-bell' bears.

Thanks again for all your responses.

I definitely harbor 'traditionalist' tendencies since I was about 3 years old and my Mom's uncle held one of his Pennsylvania rifles while I squeezed the trigger on a cap over a paper wad to shoot across the room. Sure wish I could have some of his stuff now!!

I looked at an original 'plains'-type rifle today at Great Northern Guns in Anchorage......$1250 dollars worth of intense beauty.

I bought my wife a 10-22 that they had on sale instead.....I'm a pushover!

DAVE

Nobody has said anything about 58 cal, the enfield replica is a good machine. The longer 3 ring barrel is nicer to shoot and a bit more guts on longer distances. You can shoot patched ball or miniball, the ball is good for a group of about 12" at 200 yards. Avoid flints for practicality.

Or if you want a good shooter something like a rolling block Browning loaded with blackpowder in 45/70.

Here's a pic of the original .32 cal squirrel gun. I broke the patch box cover off by being ham handed. It's upstairs.

Another pic.

Muzzleloader, Traditions vs Others...

Dave, I love my Black Powder, almost as much as my Champ… I have been shooting and hunting with Front Loader/Cap and Ball rifles since living in Alaska 30 Years ago. My very first Encounter with Muzzle Loading was, 10 CVA kits Build for the Annual Play "Cry of the Wild Ram". I helped Ray Mackie, our Resident Gun Shop Owner on Kodiak, build these rifles. We also loaded them with Black Powder and News paper wadding for use during the Presentation of the Outdoor Play. I later purchased Thompson Center's Seneca in .45, and used it successfully on Sitka Blacktail on Kodiak and Raspberry Islands. I have been a Thompson Center customer every since. I currently shoot a Seneca in .36 and .45 Calibers, a really nice Hawkins in .50 Cal, and a .54 Caliber Renegade. Thompson Center also has a great “Lifetime Warranty” on all of their products. I can attest to their support. http://tcarms.com/ I like telling people the best thing about Deer hunting with a muzzle loader (at least in Kansas now) is I get into the field with short sleeves, warm weather and herds of deer that aren’t yet skiddish of people… Anyway Good Luck in finding a “Smoke Pole”, there is a lot of really good ones on the market today. Take it out shoot it get the hang of reloading, and go get some Venison… Champdriver

Jon B. said:

In-line smokers are for guys that fly airplanes with nose wheels! Stay away from those things.

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I just shot my first deer in my life yesterday.... with a 50-caliber in-line that I got from Cabela's last month for $69 (a one-day in-store special)! Yes, the traditional black powder is nice but that $69 price couldn't be beat for just trying it out.

It sure was a rush..... the NJ muzzleloader season opener and at least 7 deer came flying past at high speed - being flushed out. I just picked what looked like the biggest one in which I could get a clear shot (was in the woods) and took my best shot (open sites)! Had a nice (tender) venison dinner last night! Oh, yeah I did it the easy way, In-Line, Triple-7 pellets, Powerbelts, and 209 shotgun primers. But I'm only a beginner!!!

A friend who's a hunter came over and showed me how to gut and skin it.

JonB. Yeah, I like the look of the traditional rifles....Hawken, Pennsylvania/Kentucky.

..But alot can be said for somone who's poor going out and buying a $100 in-line gun and getting out for a primitive season deer. Congratulations Christina. $69 bucks and your first deer with it.

Todd C. I'll check out the 'track of the wolf'. I can get an okay site picture on the Penn./Kentucky (roman nose stock) by placing the butt on my upper bicep.....learned that out of a book!

triptoption, Rick Papp, champdriver. T/C makes great stuff. A few used "Hawken" 's are available at my local shop. Around $200. Is that a deal?? No pitting on exterior, I'll check the bore's next time.

Student Pilot. I'm not up for blackpowder cartridge stuff. That original 'Plains' rifle for $1250 that I saw yesterday is .58 caliber. What a beautiful thing, but not something I'd take outside. I guess the look of these old muzzleloaders is one reason why I'm interested.

TJ, that squirrel rifle you built is a heckuva project. Rifling the barrel? Whew!!

Any of you guys see the video "Gunsmith of Williamsburg"?? I highly recommend it for someone who's interested in watching a "new-world" (East Coast-early 1800's) gunsmith turn out a gorgeous rifle using true old-time techniques of forgeing, drilling, rifleing, carving, engraving, etc. I have watched it many times in the month that I've owned it. I'm amazed!! The tape is still available.

Thanks again for your input here, guys. I'll be doing this for a long time, but for now, I've still got 'til Dec. 31 to tip some Blacktail. Not tired of my moose sausage yet, but up for some fresh venison stir-fry, or whatever.

DAVE

Gunsmith of Williamsburg....check it out!!!

I just read my post.

...didn't mean to make it sound like I thought Christina is poor.

I think it's cool that a gun can be bought for around a hundred bucks and someone can put a deer in their freezer (250 bucks? from Walmart?) and eat better and feel good about it!

Christina Young said:

I just shot my first deer in my life yesterday....

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Pictures?

Dave, you're on the right track with that video. Would you mind listing the publisher, etc.? I'd like to get it through the local library.

Champdriver, I used to have a .45 Seneca and wished I'd never traded it off. The only TC I currently have is a .32 Cherokee, what a fun shooter that is.

PA-18, I shoot traditional archery with a longbow and a Martin take-down. Just plinking mainly but hope to get into the squirrel woods soon.

My wife and I shoot Petersoli .45 muzzleloaders. Mine is a flint lock. Sometimes I wonder if I am ever going to learn to keep a series of 13 shots inside the target at 50 meters. It is frustrating, but also great fun.

What do you use for cleaning and protecting firearms after shooting black powder? My day job is in the chemistry business. As a private enterprise, I have been working with formulating a good cleaner/lubricant/anti-corrosion compound. I think I have come up with a very good product. However, I'm always eager to hear the experiences of other shooters, so I would like to hear what you prefer to use.

Bent

Please pardon my ignorance, but what is an in-line gun???

Bent

Cubdude, sorry I didn't take any pictures..... just didn't think about it at the time - and it didn't have a big rack anyway, just spikes (there is unlimited antlerless deer in my area because of the out of control population). Maybe I could go back out to the woods and take a picture of the head and skin I tossed out there? Or whatever is left of it.... there were 8 vultures circling there this morning.

The whole thing happened so fast that all I could do was to pick one out and shoot before the whole herd dissappeared. At first I couldn't believe I had actually hit one - I never shot at something moving that fast before! It was about a 25 yard shot, through the woods.

It was a rush because it was a lot different than what I saw in videos before, where someone just sits in a blind drinking a cup of coffee and shoots a deer grazing peacefully in a pasture. I just don't consider that very sporting, even if it does put food on the table.

This was all high speed, there were many obstacles (lots of big trees), with the deer appearing suddenly and unexpectedly, and moving fast (something had spooked them). I felt that they really had a chance.

BES said:

Please pardon my ignorance, but what is an in-line gun???

Bent

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I think it comes from the fact that the ignition source (caps or 209 primers) is in-line with the propellent and bullet. Can anyone tell me if that is correct?

BES said:

What do you use for cleaning and protecting firearms after shooting black powder? My day job is in the chemistry business. As a private enterprise, I have been working with formulating a good cleaner/lubricant/anti-corrosion compound. I think I have come up with a very good product. However, I'm always eager to hear the experiences of other shooters, so I would like to hear what you prefer to use.

Bent

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No. 13 works great for me. This site has several products to choose from.

http://www.possibleshop.com/bore-cleaner.htm

BES, Christina's description is correct and typical of the "modern" muzzleloader. They're designed to handle as much like your modern high-powered cartridge gun as possible, therefore bringing as many modern hunters into the muzzleloading crowd as possible. They certainly have their place....and some good ones (CVA) can be had quite cheaply!!!

Do any of you use the "American Powder Company" substitue propellant that Jim Shockey has endorsed?

The ads say...."1000 rounds, 90 calendar days since the last cleaning, etc. etc., used 2 spit patches to clean it and it loaded fine,etc. etc".

Sounds too good to be true when what I hear is that accuracy decreases after maybe 5 shots.

I'll search out a link for that video. It is so good. The guy is doing it the way they once did it.!!!

http://www.history.org/Publications/videos/index.cfm?ItemId=33&SubCatID=23

The description does not do this film justice.

I called to order mine, the copy was in a different location from the "on-line" store.

I'll find more info, i.e., phone number. It took a little footwork to get at this one.

BES said:

My wife and I shoot Petersoli .45 muzzleloaders. Mine is a flint lock. Sometimes I wonder if I am ever going to learn to keep a series of 13 shots inside the target at 50 meters. It is frustrating, but also great fun.

What do you use for cleaning and protecting firearms after shooting black powder? My day job is in the chemistry business. As a private enterprise, I have been working with formulating a good cleaner/lubricant/anti-corrosion compound. I think I have come up with a very good product. However, I'm always eager to hear the experiences of other shooters, so I would like to hear what you prefer to use.

Bent

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Bent:

The secret to accuracy is to clean the bore after 5 shots or so. Which leads to the question you asked.

When I'm going to continue shooting, I use a commercial black-powder, water-based solvent and just run a wet patch through the bore several times. Follow that with several dry patches 'til they come out clean and dry.

After I'm all done shooting, I strip the rifle and wash it with very hot water and detergent. I use dish soap or household cleaner; whatever is handy. Rinse it well with, again, really hot water, to promote drying. Then run dry patches down the bore 'til there's no water left. After that, I use a patch with "Bore Butter" and liberally coat the inside with it. The patch then gets used to wipe down the outside with the 'butter' to prevent rust. Black powder is hellishly corrosive, so do clean immediately and carefully after shooting. My brother-in-law left a partial charge in his rifle and I had an awful time clearing and cleaning it before I used it. That's when I bought my own.

I use Pyrodex but the same procedure is used for 'real' black powder.

Black powder and petroleum products do not work well together. Any oil will tend to form a hard soot that's a pain to remove. If you get it in the bore around the flash hole area, it can really cause trouble. Don't clean with the same chemicals used for smokeless powder and don't oil the gun with petroleum-based solutions.

Note to Dave - if you buy a used rifle, it may take a while to get the load adjusted for decent accuracy. New ones will have a chart in the manual showing which powder charges work with specific projectiles. You have to fine-tune but you needn't reinvent the wheel. When I mentioned that my side-lock prefers heavy bullets, I meant that my best accuracy is with a ~400 grain conical bullet and 110 grains of Pyrodex. A 360 grain projectile may require 85 or 125 grains of powder; I just don't know. A 365 grain Remington conical bullet is off by about three feet (!) in varied directions (at 100 yards) with the same charge. I found that the Black Belt lead conicals with a plastic gas check will nearly touch at 100 yards off a rest. But, and this is a big but, I have to clean the bore after three shots to maintain that accuracy.

Establishing a zero (I think it's called Regulating the rifle) takes lots of time and lots of powder and lots of patience. Pick a bullet, start with a low charge. Shoot ten (or so), then increase by 5 grains. Shoot another ten. Repeat ad nauseum. Record your data! Enjoy! Drink beer afterwards; that helps.

Jon B.

Oh, yeah.

I should mention to hunters:

Before you load the rifle to go into the field, fire a couple of caps to make certain that it *will* fire. Pulling bullets is a pain. I also put a piece of paper or a patch over the bore when I fire the cap to see that the flash hole is clear. If the cap blows the patch off, she'll likely fire. A second cap helps to dry any moisture that may be left in the bottom of the bore.

It sucks to take aim at a deer, elk, moose, whatever, and hear just a "snap" when you're expecting a big boom and a cloud of white smoke.

Jon B.

PA-18 said:

Go one step further and pick up a bow and we will have tons to talk about. I have been waiting several years on this site for a bowhuntin buddy. You will never go back if you are started out correctly in archery!

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You've got a bowhuntin' buddy on this site now, been huntin' deer with a bow since high school, but slacked off in recent years (since about the time I got my SEL, come to think of it). I've got a high school buddy who's taken every North American big game animal with a longbow - no pin sights or other aids, just a kisser button - he's gotten pretty famous in the archery hunting community.

My brother and I built a Hawken black powder rifle from a kit when we were in our teens; he ended up being a custom rifle and pistolsmith. We used to have a blast with that black powder rifle, but neither one of us ever hunted much more than squirrels with it.

I got lucky last week in West Virgina. While deer hunting with my bow I shot a Bobcat! When I saw him on the hillside @80 yards away I made a chirping sound like a squirell and he came in to 25 yards. His last mistake! never saw one in that close before. Rick

Jon B.: sounds like you're doing the same stuff the books are talking about.....firing a clearing cap, taking time to find what charge and projectile make an accurate shot, etc. Thanks for the input.

Doug, is your brother still gunsmithing? does he build muzzleloading stuff? If so, what styles?

Rick, nice job calling that 'cat. 25 yards?? Must have been natural selection that you were able to get that thing in!!

Again, thanks for posting your experiences!

DAVE