ski plane technique

I am looking for real world advice on flying with skis from people that actually know how.

I have a light weight experimental TEAM Himax. It is a high wing, tail wheel plane capable of short takeoffs and landings. It has a cruise speed of 65 to 70 mph and gross weight of ~600 lbs.

I would appreciate any information on good technique and what not to do.

Also, I plan on building and rigging my skis and have info from other successful builders on this topic but am always open to design and construction ideas.

Thanks for any help

buy a good shovel to fit in the plane, good engine cover, snowshoes, sleeping bag...

don't leave without them

Where do you live?

Have you flown floats?

Too much to teach over the internet. Too many snow variables. Get someone with experience to follow for a while.

I can send you some articles on it to help. Send me an email address.

Jetech,

Good advice from aktango. There are more variables in ski flying than all the other kinds of flying put together, and more ways to get in trouble.

Ditto on survival gear. Don't fly skis without it. ALWAYS plan on spending the night wherever you land, and most of the time, you won't need to.

Get some back copies of Pilot Getaways Magazine (first two issues of 2005, I believe). I did a couple articles on ski basics. But, its just basic stuff.

Find an instructor or someone who's done a lot of this stuff, and spend some quality time with them.

If your airplane is underpowered, don't put it on skis, unless you never plan to get into deep snow.

MTV

I built some skiis for my experimental and started flying skiis cold turkey, My advise if you can't find some good instruction, is to read some of the info in this forum on the subject.

First of all you don't have brakes. Start off using baby steps, meaning starting with a small amount of snow and slowly progressing into different conditions. . The first year I flew skiis I was sure it was a good way to wreck a perfectly good airplane. Didn't have any close calls but discovered some snow conditions were not favorable for skii operations with my set-up. Several times I carefully touched down and not liking the feeling added power and flew away. Felt like if I slowed down I would be stuck or worse. Wasn't real excited about trying it further.

The second year, we had a good amount of local snow and put them skiis on again. Had better experiences with some great time. In several feet of snow that is soft on top, it is hard to tell when you touch down or when you leave the snow on take-off. In deep snow, I don't commit myself to a full stop landing untill I have a good feel of how much floatation the snow conditions provide. If going into a small landing area I might checkout the snow conditions nearby, where I have room go get the feel and have plenty of room to abort the landing. Not having alot of experience, I don't land on lakes that snowmobiles are not operating., When in areas where there is alot of snowmobile activity, expect the snow to be rough giving your skiis and landing gear a real workout.

Be prepared to walk home from where ever you land.

Don

I don't find ski flying hard. If you are an experienced pilot transitioning to skiis should be quite easy. I do just fine on wheels, skis and floats. I just keep everything straight when landing and taking off. Sounds simple but I think you know what I mean. Keep er straight and you won't have any problems. Don't get any side drift going on while landing and taking off. I have done a little ski flying. Notice my Burl Rogers tailski. Very nice piece of equipment to have. A great, quality built tailski. My mains are Atlee-Dodge 2500's which are also built very well and perform fine for me.

Thanks for all the replies so far, all good advice.

I plan to start out slow and carefully. I hope to have the plane re-covered and painted soon so protecting my work from becoming a pile of broken sticks in a snowbank will be high priority.

I don't know anyone in the area that uses skis so I am on my own. Iowa isn't really a aviation orientated state. Most pilots around here just sit and wait for the runways to be plowed or for spring.

I sure appreciate the advice given, I have a few other pilots interested in flying with skis so this could be interesting

Gary

I now have all the skis , Burls tailski,rigging for the L2500A's and a seaplane ticket. I had a friend take me up in his 12 last season and absolutely loved it. We just got our first snow ( wont last if it rains) and I did not know if it was better to practice on a first snow or waited til it crusted over with a base? I was not nervous about landing on China Lake as it felt just like floats that I was used to. I have a little apprehension of field landing just yet any ideas. Thanks John

Oh man, snow time is the best time in the year. 10 000% more landing possibilities. You can land almost everywhere, where you see the surface is flat and smooth. BUT, well I have 3000 Federals on my cub. They work very good but sometimes the snow is very powdery and soft. It is an interesting project to trample with snowshoes a 400feet long runway in more then hipdeep snow, because your bomber sits cowlingdeep in the snow :-?

The problem I have with skiis is judging the potential landing are before I touch down. I get fooled way more on skiis than wheels of floats. It seems that I learn mostly by mistakes and those mistakes really suck! A good instructor can help teach you what to look for but there are so many adverse conditions that you can never be prepared for them all.

SKIES

i went from wheel to skis and had no problem at all that was in a challenger altralight. Never tried the piper on skies yet not enough snow
Il have to learn tail dragger and skies at same time .However did make
some mistakes on skies witch could of cost me.Took off on very small lake
in deep snow good thing there was creek at end of lake witch gave me a chance,you have to make a trail with plane first
and then take off in tracks to mutch drag if you don't and you'll be hopping
for a creek to

you might try going to www.treetopflyers.org

It is a website dedicated to skiplane flying. It is not a huge site but reading all the threads might offer some techniques.

Also FE Potts book "Guide to Bush Flying" has a couple of excellent chapters on ski flying.

And thats all there is folks.....not much info, written or otherwise, on the subject.

Good luck

Bill

I find that the scariest part about flying on skis is, Taxing around on the ramp with other folks 100,000 dollar airplanes lining the taxi way !

I throw a half dozen large garbage bags in the plane to put under the skis on those days when I get somewhere and it warms up enough to get the snow really sticky. They will wear out and come off about liftoff and you can come back later to pick up your litter. Saved me a long wait several times. I keep matches dry in an old pill bottle and some paper towel for fire starter and nature calls in a ziplock bag. Ski flying is a blast and you'll love it once you get the hang of it and learn to land with a little power control as you feel the snow conditions. Every landing/takeoff is a whole new experience.

Jetech

Skiing is great fun and long as you think things trough, practice and gain experience incrementally you will be having a blast in no time.

Here's a few things to think about on skis.

1. All planes perform different on skis. A light 160 hp supercub on landes 2500 is way different that an M-7 Maule on Fluidine 3000 wheel skis.

2. Skis are hard on gear. Strong gear is a good thing.

3. When flying skis you must "THINK SNOW" just like an Alpine, Cross Country, or Back Country Skier would. Otherwise you must give your best guess on the snow conditions by thinking of all the factors such as temperature, winds, depth and type of previous snow, etc. The more you develop this type of mind set the better you will at anticipating snow conditions.

4. Deep heavy snow gives gobs of resistance and hard packed ice like snow can make you slide to heck and back.

5. You have no breaks! Don't forget that a mag switch will kill an engine faster than the mixture knob. You will taxi slower on ice on one mag and carb heat on.

6. Don't mix ice landing and strong winds. The wind may just have it's way with you.

7. Flat light makes the old ground hard to judge so know your surface in flat light. Glassy water technique is good for flat light.

8. Snowmachine helmets are not prop resistant.

9. He who lands in deep powder and just stops will learn to use a shovel. Use multiple drag passes straight in or drive a race track pattern several times then stop on your own tracks.

10. He who lands in steep snow at extreme altitude with wimpy engine now has a snowmachine with wings. That's it!

11. Beware of snow snakes. They hide beneath the surface in the form of rocks, bent over trees, or other debris designed to separate skis/gearleg from aircraft.

12. Glacier landings in flat light on a cloudy day will make you change your user ID to something like SNOWDART, or ICESCREW, cause that is exactly what you will become.

13. If you see someone drop bust through thin ice in the spring, don't land next to them to see if you can help. Seen three planes go in that way. It was like one of those mice sticky traps. Mind you at no time were pilots in danger. Other folks just kept landing to see if they could help and the brake through also.

14. When landing on frozen lakes or streams lay a set of tracks and see if they fill with water before you commit to a landing in overflow. If you screw up and land in serious overflow remember that the slush spray is probably sticking to your tail.

15. The snow you land in today will be differnt snow tomorrow.


As previous posters have stated there is plenty to think about but all in all is just simple fun that will grow with your experience.

Jerry

Good advice - my one tip would be to taxi back around into your landing tracks before shutting down. Then you are positioned and ready to go when you jump back in. Granted - if there is a lot of wind you will probably be taking off in the other direction, but at least you can taxi back down the tracks where you landed and get it turned down at your point of touchdown to go into the wind. I also don't hesitate on a downwind takeoff on my landing tracks it the wind ain't too strong and I got some room. At least I know where I already made those tracks is safe. Don't stop that bird until a)you are back on your tracks from landing or b) it is stuck and stops itself. And watch out for small wind protected bays - I landed into one last year and the snow was more than waist deep at the back - while out where I touched down is was ankle deep. Several hours and several gallons of sweat later I was back out where I should have parked it the first time.

cubflier said:

Jetech



7. Flat light makes the old ground hard to judge so know your surface in flat like. Glassy water technique is good for flat light.

Jerry

Click to expand...

Another alternative to the glassy water approach is to throw somthing out of the plane onto the ice. Land on or next to the item you threw out of the plane.

I personally like an orange construction cone if the snow is flat....

Tim

Brian Schanche at www.adventureseaplanes.com has a PA 12 on ski's that he gives instruction in. He is located in Minneapolis.
Marty

cubflier wrote:
Jetech



7. Flat light makes the old ground hard to judge so know your surface in flat like. Glassy water technique is good for flat light.

Jerry


Another alternative to the glassy water approach is to throw somthing out of the plane onto the ice. Land on or next to the item you threw out of the plane.

I personally like an orange construction cone if the snow is flat....


Boy, be REALLY respectful of flat light. I've taken gear off with stuff I didn't/couldn't see in flat light, as in rough snow. DON'T use a glassy water technique to land in flat light unless:

a) You are really positively certain that what you are landing on is safe, or

b) Your other alternative is to run out of gas and land in trees, that you can't see either cause its dark.

In most instances of recreational flying, flat light landings are just a pretty bad idea. After a lot of years of ski flying, I am still occasionally amazed at what I DIDN'T see prior to landing somewhere.

MTV

mvivion,
The old orange construction cone in the back seat is finally useful for something :lol: . Do you really carry one of those around?

The scariest landing I ever did was on Figure Eight Lake on a gray day. I'd been there a couple of days before and all was great. When I went back, I was complacent. Anxious to go fishing with some friends. I never anticipated the wind had blown from the west leaving a series of concrete-like drifts that looked like 12-18" waves with vertical faces. Of course, I never saw them as I landed to the west. Anybody that says Cessna 180 gear isn't tough wasn't there to witness that spectacle. To this day I can't believe that airplane stayed together. And that was followed by a very long, hard taxi to find a smooth surface.

Dumb. There is no other explanation. An orange cone wouldn't have
helped, either. Never again. Well, not on purpose.

SB

The thing I like about this forum is the solid backup you get when you fall short of making a point.

MTV did a good job of furthering my point of "know your surface".

You see I have this problem with my employment. I own a commercial greenhouse. I'm not complaining but the only time I have to ski fly is November to January so I get plenty of flat light to fly in / be cautious of.

As he emphasized - you can't see the ground or it's condition so it is a must that you know the ground / snow conditions prior to landing. Many a gear has been waisted by those that don't.

The thing that I look forward to is this is our last year in business and from here out I will know what it is like to fly in some of the more spring like conditions when you guy's buzz my greenhouse just to see me run out in the parking lot bursting with envy!!

Jerry

ground loop said:

mvivion,
The old orange construction cone in the back seat is finally useful for something :lol: . Do you really carry one of those around?

Click to expand...

So what is the problem with putting somthing on the ice to give some perspective?

And no, I do not carry an orange cone around. We happened to have one on the lake once from the ice bikes. We were flying after fresh snow with a cloudy day (yes we knew the surface conditions). Great for a reference point. Thats just my novice advice.


I suppose you have a better idea. What is it?

Tim

Tim,

There are two problems in flat light:

1) It's really hard to see the surface. A glassy water technique (which I think is functional, but pretty risky, depending) may work there, and certainly having some reference on the ice to give definition is WAY better. Many of us for years have "planted" small spruce branches to mark our snow runways on lakes, etc early in the season. Works great.

2) The second problem, though, is hitting something that's covered with snow that you simply can't see because of flat light. One example is the really rough snow noted earlier. Another is landing practically on top of a 5 foot high beaver house (I've been there) because after about six passes, I still hadn't seen the beaver house. Now, that was extreme conditions, but.....

So, my point was that, yes, if you know without doubt that your landing area is 1) SMOOTH, 2) FLAT, and 3) WITHOUT OBSTRUCTIONS, throwing a traffic cone, a spruce branch, or something else out to give you a touchdown reference, is not a bad idea. A better idea would have been to mark out a landing strip when you verified 1, 2 and 3 above.

But, throwing out a traffic cone won't help you see the obstacles like a beaver house that can be virtually invisible in flat light.

So, don't fool yourself that you're doing the whole job throwing out a reference.

MTV

mvivion said:

So, my point was that, yes, if you know without doubt that your landing area is 1) SMOOTH, 2) FLAT, and 3) WITHOUT OBSTRUCTIONS, throwing a traffic cone, a spruce branch, or something else out to give you a touchdown reference, is not a bad idea.

MTV

Click to expand...

Mike-

I apprecatiate you elaborating on the situation but what I described was just what you stated, smooth, flat, no obstructions. I threw out the varibles of beaver dams, igloos, snowmen, and trees for the sake of the original post where we were talking basics. Although they are all noteable problems you may run into, the biggest one being the flat light and loss of depth perception. By giving some point of reference I was trying to mitigate the hazard of the flat light and depth perception. Wether there is a beaver house where you are landing makes no difference when you fly it into the ground anyway.

Tim

One more: The weight of lake ice will often force water up along the shore line. Land OK in the center, taxi to the shore for take off and your in the slush! Here's another one I learned from an old ski pilot 35 years ago, carry strips of tar paper (roofing felt) to start a fire. Burns in the wind and on snow. Save the paper towels to clean the windscreen.

SKIS

MY FRIEND WHEN PARKING PLANE PUTS DIESEL FUEL ON TO 2 CARPETS FOR SKIES TO REST ON. FUEL GOES INTO TEFLONS AND DOESN'T
STICK TO SNOW .HES BEEN FYING FOR
30 YEARS SO I WILL LISEN TO HIM AND IT ASLOW MAKES SENSE
DIESEL FUEL AND WATER WONT STAY TOGETHER THEY ALWAYS
SEPARATE.OF COURSE YOUR SKIS HAVE TO BE LINED WITH TEFLONS
FOR THIS TO WORK

behindpropellers said:

I threw out the varibles of beaver dams, igloos, snowmen, and trees for the sake of the original post where we were talking basics. Although they are all noteable problems you may run into, the biggest one being the flat light and loss of depth perception. By giving some point of reference I was trying to mitigate the hazard of the flat light and depth perception. Wether there is a beaver house where you are landing makes no difference when you fly it into the ground anyway.

Tim

Click to expand...

How can you throw out these variables when they are present every time you land somplace new. MTV's point is very valid in that you are basically rolling the dice when you land in really flat light. The coat/traffic cone etc. you threw out for a bit of depth perception is doing you a disservice when you whack into a 5 foot high beaver house when flaring for your "glassy water landing". This is no joke when it very nearly happened to a good friend of mine on Sucker Lake. He landed in flat light to go ice fishing one weekend and made it in OK. Even caught a few fish. Next weekend he went back to fish some more but the skies were clear and he could see. When he saw his previous tracks about 30 feet from a beaver house that he never saw the week before he got religion real quick. Landing in truly flat light in a new place (or an old place a week later) is rolling the dice with very little payoff for the risk of your airframe. SB's Figure 8 Lake story illustrates this very well too. If Sandra Bullock and Jessica Simpson were on a nice remote lake camp grilling T-bones in loungerie and waving you in on a flat light day one might be tempted to land and join them but otherwise I'll pass. :lol:

Bruce

Bruce,

What lake was that???? I missed em again?

Dang!!

MTV

Sorry Mike,

If I told you then everyone will be landing there to join them!! Right now it's just me and Jessica now that she is single. Even when my plane is up to its lift struts in overflow, it's worth it :-?

Ski Dynamics

The only thing I can add, the force on the landing gear and the airframe is increased 50% on straight skis (because the tire absorbs so much), so this means that on top of having a big torque wrench on the end of the landing gear from the skis, you have lot of load on the airframe. Definintly have the heavy duty gear (and inspect it periodically).