Overflow

Hi All. Still warming up after a quick flight last weekend.

As I had a mind to go trapping on Satruday, and we had lots and lots of fresh snow, I felt I should spend some time packing down my landing areas, then return the next day to land on a bit of firmed up snow.

This was going well until one ski sort of grabbed the overflow, and I settled down quite quickly onto the lake.

I jacked it up, got the skis out, and started walking. I unfortunatly was worried about that flight plan, and having to be "found and rescued" from myself, so waited as long as I could and tried my strip. Not firm enough.

I was found, but remained overnight to let the tracks freeze well enough to take off. The next morning I found that the amount of ice clinging to the plastic under the ski was enough to pull me into the fresh snow, :evil: and again plant the ski into more water, hence building more Ice on the ski.

I cleaned it off more than once, but it was so cold that the ski would freeze down immediatly, yet the snow insulated the water to keep it from freezing.

I finally got it out on day three after heating the skis with torches and scraping them clean, letting them freeze up and then taking off in my well packed tracks.

My question is: when stuck in overflow, anyone got any great ideas on how to get em out quicker???????

I am using Aerro retract skis, so am I not getting the lift that would allow me to get on top of the water and get out? In Juneau we have no choice but wheel skis.

Thanks for your ideas and tips.

Overflow sure can change you plans in a hurry.

Get the snowshoes out and pack down a runway and around the plane . Then let it freeze in if you are lucky you might be able to power out after packing things down it all depends on the conditions of the day. If you have to spend the night you should try to get the skis out of the overflow by setting them on sticks or whatever you can find. This might be a real chore if you by yourself. Clean those skis up before they freeze up and you should be ready to fly later in the day or the next morning depending on time and temp. .

Long story short there is no easy way when it comes to overflow just be prepaired with the right equipment.

Cub_Driver

I am no bush pilot, but I appreciate the predicament that you were in, aktango, and I appreciate the tips you provided, cub_driver! I read the article in the newsletter from the Alaska Airman's Association, by Don Bowers, and he wrote a bit about this.

Last weekend I finally got my supercub onto hydraulic skis, after not using them for a few years, and went out to get some practice in upper MN, hoping to go to the Brodhead ski flyin. The temps were in the 40s, and I noticed how "sticky" the snow was. It has been very cold here recently, the ice very thick, and I didn't think much about overflow. After some landings I decided that things just didn't feel right, so I decided not to go to the flyin the next day. Well, I went out onto the lake with crosscountry skis later and immediately discovered that my skis sank into the snow on the lake, sinking into water underlying the snow! I knew the ice was a foot thick, from ice fishing, but had no idea that a few days of 40 degrees could make overflow such a problem! I remember reading in the book "Fly the Wild and Stay Alive" that it is prudent to fly into a site that you are contemplating landing on, dragging the skis across the snow on the lake, climbing up and then flying over the area to see if the tracks are dark, indicating overflow. If I had done that I would surely have found that to be a very bad day to land on the lake at that site.

Thanks for your tips, cub_driver, and for sharing your experience, aktango.

use cross country ski wax called maxi-glide all over your skis. keeps the snow and ice from sticking. carry blocks of wood to get above the snow to clean it off and keep it from icing. then with your aero skis, make a board or metal plate that you can jam in the wheel hole so that it covers all the cut out. flatten your tires so it goes in. you may have to make it curved depending on your areo ski in how much the tire protrudes with the ski down. carry a 12 volt tire inflator if you have a battery, to blow them back up later after you get on a place with hard snow, or to hold the plate in place.

Ah, overflow, the great equalizer. And promoter of fine winter camping equipment.

There are no easy answers to overflow, once you are in it. If you can pack it down as noted, and let it freeze, that may work, assuming, as noted you can get the skis up out of the slop first. If they freeze in, you're pretty much screwed, until you do a LOT of work.

As to site evaluation, ALWAYS put down a set of tracks, then give them some time (5 to 10 minutes) to show dark. Sometimes it takes a while. While you are waiting, maybe continue to work the tracks if they feel okay, gradually putting more and more weight on the skis, pass after pass. Sometimes it takes many, many passes to get comfortable with a spot. Even then, sometimes it isn't good enough, and when you stop or turn around, you're in it.

I carry ice screws and a good come along with an extra 100 feet of aircraft cable, with eyes on each end. Doesnt have to be huge cable.

Sometimes, a come along and cable will get you up onto good ice, where you can wait for freeze up, or maybe just leave.

Always be prepared to camp, in any case.

If you land out on skis, you will, sooner or later, get into winter camping.

As the boy scouts say, "Be Prepared".

MTV

Ice screws and a little fold up come-a-long sold by "modern farm". I cary the same kit on the snow machine.

A couple of out of date airline inflatable life vests make great jacks. Slip 'em in and pull the cord. (They also make good compartment fillers for a holed float.)

GR

You guys have all the fun........... 8)

The most important tools for overflow are good boots and good clothes. Regardless of how you get the plane out, you're going to get wet. Wet from the overflow, and wet from sweating. If you're not successful after the effort, and you don't have good gear, you're in serious trouble.

The worst time I ever sunk a plane was a 180, in deep enough to have one wingtip on the ice, at -5*, alone. I was wearing insulated Carhart's and barely adequate Sorel boots. Bad choices. I know of what I speak.

You fire buffs say what you want about Gore tex and nylon. I wear just that. The chances of dying from hypothermia are greater than those of dying by fire. WEAR GOOD GEAR!

SB

overflow

When by myself the come-along and cable is a must. When traveling with a fishing partner in the back seat, most often a half hour on the snow shoes and some armstrong power on the struts gets her up on the newly packed snow. Proper foot wear is a must. I wear Itasca 18" rubber boots with 1600 grams of thinsulate, great boots for the price, $69 !! Another option is the LaCrosse Burly 18" rubber boots with 1200 grams of thinsulate. Alittle more spendy at $129 !! But a very good boot !! Also, carry basics to spend the night if neccesary !! Ski flying is some of the most fun one can have, but also the most frustrating if not properly prepared for the challenges mother nature presents !!

trash bags

I've seen some good idea's on the previous posts, however no one mentioned using trash bags.

Where I live we get our fair share of overflow "slop". When I first get out of the plane I slip plastic trash bags over the front of the skis and work them back as far as posible. If someone is w/ you have that person lift a wing and work the bag all the over the ski to complety cover the bottom of the ski. Of course you'll have to rip the top side of the trash bag while working it over the front/upper cable. Then, if posible, sit some spruce bows under the skis or maybe a tree limb.

Once you get back in and are ready to go, the slippery trash bags will allow you to gain enough momentum to get the skis "on step", similar to floats. The trash bags will tear & rip as you start going. If you'll be in one place overnight the bags are a really good idea because the ice/snow/water will frezze to the bags instead of the plastic on the bottom of your skis, making it MUCH easier to clean off. In this case you'll need another ste of bags for the take-off launch.
Also keep in mind that you could use up a LOT of room when taking off in deep water/overflow. I always make sure I have LOTS of runway in front of me. The lighter the plane the better, slawshing through the water don't do the prop any good either.
In the late Spring I consistently operate in 6-12"+ of water/snow on top of the solid lake ice.

good flying..>Byron

Luke,

Interesting.
Never thought of the plastic garbage bags, even though I use 'em on the snow machine. Duh! Hate to see one hung in the taill
Now, if we could find a way to keep the slop off the prop.

GR

trash bags

Hi Gary,

I forgot to mention the part about the Cub looking like a trash truck after take off :lol:

I've had peices of the trash bags wraped around the gear legs, on the flying wires around the tail feathers, tailwheel, and so on.....

Which made me just remeber one of my most scary moments in a Cub! It started off with an arial drop of supplies to a hunting camp, shouldn't have been a problem, have done this many times before. I opened the door, slowed down, was paying attention to where I was and what was going on, grabbed the stick w/ my left hand and had my right hand on the bag I was about to drop. Apparently a different bag that I was going to drop at another camp had a roll of paper towels inside that were NOT in the original plastic wraping.
Anyway, with the door open and all the wind blowing inside I had a whole roll of paper towels start flying around inside the cab, I remeber not being able to see anything and trying to gather up the towels w/ my hand. The whole thing lasted maybe 20 seconds, which seemed like 20 minutes! In closing, the lesson here is to make SURE everything inside the cab in secure before opening the door...duh!!!

Are you in Lake Clark now, or Florida? Ever get over to Dillingham? I need to make a trip over to Illimana next week, you going to be around?

good flying..>Byron

Byron,

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Are you in Lake Clark now, or Florida? Ever get over to Dillingham? I need to make a trip over to Illimana next week, you going to be around?
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We are still in Florida - still fixing hurricane damage. Most of our old house here is functional again - mom's roof is back on . Next week I'll go up to the cabin on Crescent Lake and finish some work on the trees we lost there (and watch the race at nearby Daytona)

I'll be back at the lake in March. There is a winterman at my place right now.

Do you know Chuck and Sarah Hornberber? Sara was the school principal at Naknek for a while. They have a cabin by me at the lake and their son George flys for Iliamna Air Taxi.

Gary

HDPP bottoms

I've flown out of overflows many times where it looked like I was water skiing. I was in a light 90HP PA-11 with a take-off prop and Federal skis with high density polypropylene bottoms. Snow and ice will not stick to these bottoms. The skis had a short (8" x 1/4" x 1/2") skeg. Great for turning and stability on icy surfaces, but not big enough to pick up much ice or snow. I never have a problem with skis freezing down or getting out of belly deep snow or of deep overflow. I actually landed a couple times to get people out of overflow trouble, then jumped in and took off without a problem. Secret is the HDPP bottoms although it is always a good idea to lay down tracks to check for water. Ditto for cloths, boots and retrieval equipment just in case.

Richard,

A light airplane like a PA-11 is certainly more "overflow-proof" than a heavier one, but don't believe for a moment that it won't get stuck. Also, believe me, the UHMW plastic will freeze down, and if you get into lots of water, as has been described by some of the folks here, we're not talking about a little frost on the bottoms, we're talking about up to your ankles, or over your bunny boot tops water. Sink into that stuff, and a little frost on the bottoms seems like a nice walk in the park.

The heavier the plane, the more likely you are to get in trouble in overflow, and the deeper you are likely to get, for sure, and if I had to get into overflow, a PA 11 would be a really good vehicle to use. For one thing, it's light enough to fairly easily jack up, even if it does "fall in".

The problem with the 11, though, is that it doesn't have much power, and power is what will yank you up out of the stuff, once you've propped up the skis, beat down an area, let it freeze, and done all the other stuff in preparation.

Don't assume that overflow is a piece of cake based on your experiencs. Many of the folks on this list have literally spent days (Yes, days) getting an airplane out of overflow, and I know of at least one Helio that was basically abandoned till spring, because of it.

Your skegs will still grow frost. The Atlee wood skis have a short steel channel for a skeg, which is similar in size to what you describe. I've been in situations with those in a Cub, where the whole bottom of the ski (plastic) was clear, but the skegs had grown a big ball of frost, and the only way to get underway was to dig out from under the ski, meticulously clean off the skeg, and go quick.

Personally, I prefer to replace the steel runners with UHMW plastic. It works well, lasts forever, and doesn't stick down AS BADLY. Everything will stick to snow under certain conditions.

For what its worth,

MTV

I'm with MTV on this one. I've had enough ice "bumps" freeze to the bottom of UHMW after a wet lake take off that almost put me on my back landing on my runway snow. If not for balls to the wall on 150HP and full back stick I would have been upside down in a plane length.

Overflow may be no big deal on a sunny near freezing day...but pop down into it on a -25 day where the water freezes instantly and it can be a long camp out!

Cheers,
Wayne