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Competition

Wayne Mackey

Wayne Mackey

Registered User
Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
Every time someone talks about compition with the cub the problem of liability comes
to the front. At what point does the liability change from the pilot to someone else.
If it is just between pilots and freinds on some remote dirt what then? Wayne
 
That is when it is all for fun and #uck the lawyers. Everybody is responsible for their own actions. The way it should be. :bad-words:
 
liability?

If you have to get a clearance to land on a ramp or taxiway because of the wind conditions, the tower will tell you that you can land at your own risk. Well dah...every landing I do is at my own risk...getting up in the morning is at my own risk...There is no liability at a friendly non sanctioned shoot out. We are all responsible for our own actions, but safety is always the first priority of the flight...of course. Ya'll come.mb
 
Hint: If you want to have a friendly competition and not be liable if and when one of you gets hurt....don't talk about it on the internet. Or in a bar. Your buddy's widow probably won't agree with your asessment.
SB
 
Re: liability?

Mike Butterfield said:
If you have to get a clearance to land on a ramp or taxiway because of the wind conditions, the tower will tell you that you can land at your own risk. Well dah...every landing I do is at my own risk...getting up in the morning is at my own risk...There is no liability at a friendly non sanctioned shoot out. We are all responsible for our own actions, but safety is always the first priority of the flight...of course. Ya'll come.mb
Click to expand...
BUT if you have such a competition and you invite ANYONE to come and watch it instantly becomes an airshow and you don't have time for the bullrooster :bad-words: that goes along with that to appease the FAA or Transport Canada, let alone any insurance concerns. As has been already said.... talk amongst yourselves, meet in the middle of no where and see who comes home with the biggest smile(and a plane in one piece!!)!!
:)
Wayne
 
stewartb said:
Hint: If you want to have a friendly competition and not be liable if and when one of you gets hurt....don't talk about it on the internet. Or in a bar. Your buddy's widow probably won't agree with your asessment.
SB
Click to expand...

This is the very problem. The widows of the guys that say screw the lawyers are right there to sue when something bad happens. Your widow is going to look for the paycheck, not you.

Torch
 
Whew!

I hear ya guys. Dead people, grieving widows and orphans in court. Ugly picture. Mike Olson Dodge has agreed to let us use his 7TC for a comparitive study. It is the same Cub that CC used for the constant speed study that was done several years ago. She is EXP, but a fine example of the world class product that is put out at CC. We'll use in house pilots and video to show at our web site coming soon.mb
 
Liability wise, what is the difference in a small, low key 8) STOL contest at a fly-in, than the spot landing contest, or flour drops that they always have?
 
Assuming that it is a legal event why not have people sign waivers before they participate, or spectate. That's what organizations were doing when I was racing motorcycles, and it seemed to work fairly well as some people did end up getting hurt or killed, but the organizations didn't get sued. I think there needs to be some real extenuating circumstances before you can shoot holes in a voluntarily signed waiver.....................except maybe in California :eek:
 
The person signing the waiver is partially signing away his rights to seek damages in a specified event and excepting the risks involved. However, the person signing can't sign away the same rights on behalf of his potential heirs..wife and children etc.
Click to expand...

Well, the above statement is not quite correct. You can sign away those rights on behalf of yourself and your heirs. Whether or not that waiver will be effective will defend on the circumstances of your demise and the law in the jurisdiction where the suit, if there is one, is brought.
 
Let's say there is a STOL contest held at a fly in/get together somewhere,
not a huge event, but just a friendly contest, like the spot landing contests that are held at alot of fly ins. And let's just say, heaven forbid, that someone gets hurt or even killed, then who is held responsible or liable? Wouldn't the responsibility or liability of the accident be pilot error or aircraft malfunction as it is in most aircraft accidents?
 
My above post should be addressed to "94super18, Sorry if there was any confusion.
 
Look folks, a guy and his wife are flying a Cessna 210 into a large city in Arizona. Runs out of gas. Crashes. Kills em both. NTSB finds over 30 gallons of gas in the tank that's not selected.

Heirs sue Cessna for product liability, as in they designed an inherently flawed aircraft.

Nobody suggested that the rich guy driving was poorly trained, or unfamiliar with his aircraft, or whatever the real reason was.

Eventually, and that's the operative term here, Cessna was held not liable, by the Supreme Court, due to product liability and the General Aviation Reform Act.

But, Cessna had to defend themselves right up to the Supreme Court to get it overturned. They lost in the lower courts and the 9th Circuit.

Any wonder why people don't hold contests anymore? It's a total wonder that the Reno Air Races go forward every year, and I'll bet the organizers sweat bullets that it won't, or that something bad will happen and they'll be held personally liable.

The system sucks.

That's why we don't have contests.

MTV
 
Let's say the above Cessna was participating in a STOL contest when he ran out of gas, his heirs would have still tried to sue Cessna. So whats the difference if he was flying in a STOL contest or just ran out of gas going from point A to point B? If nobody was sponsoring or coordinating the event, just everyone as a group come up w/ some basic rules, then who would his heirs be able to hold responsible, everyone participating? I'm not talking about another Gulkana, just something small that takes place at a fly in or get together, like New Holstein, Sentimental Journey, or Lompoc ect.
 
R. JOHNSON said:
So whats the difference if he was flying in a STOL contest or just ran out of gas going from point A to point B? If nobody was sponsoring or coordinating the event, just everyone as a group come up w/ some basic rules, then who would his heirs be able to hold responsible, everyone participating?
Click to expand...

It seems to me that these type lawsuits often take the "shotgun" approach, and file against everyone even remotely connected, Cessna, organizers, the guy who lives down the street and drives a suburban, or whatever. The lawyer would argue that a STOL contest is inherently dangerous, and anyone who organizes (even informally) is liable. THey may then go after Cessna because the plane is an unsafe design and does not fly well when the TAS drops below 40 or whatever, and the structure does not hold up well to the impact. Cessna is lucky to be able to afford good attorneys, but as MVivion said, they had to fight up to the US Supreme Court...that is a lot of time, effort and MONEY. Individuals are lucky in that they aren't as often targeted in the big lawsuits, because they don't have the deep pockets..but on the flip side they cannot afford attorneys. Back to your question...the heirs may TRY (successfully or unsuccessfully) to hold anyone connected with the event or accident responsible. THat is my take on the situation. I don't agree that it is how things should be, but I am paranoid about such things, and just try to stay away from them.

Bill
 
And, unfortunately for us all, whomever appears to have pockets, deep or not, might be targeted, and have to defend oneself. You may suceed, but spend thousands on legal fees.

And, as noted, whoever "organized" the event, by sending notes out via e-mail, etc. could be construed as being liable, at least by a plaintiffs' attorney.

I'm not an attorney, but I've sure seen some ugly things happen to good people.

On the other hand, if nobody talks about it, and just does it spontaneously, who knows?

Heck, they might sue the state for owning the water rights to the river the guy ran off into after he misjudged his landing.

It is a weird system, after all.

MTV
 
Don't forget that dreaded "precentage of liability" either. My brother-in-law has an aircraft repair shop and one of his clients put a C-177 in the trees when the engine quit on departure. The brother-in-law was found 15% liable because after working on the the aircraft he moved it back outside where the temperature drop caused the moisture in the fuel tanks to condense and form water....duh. The pilot was held 85% responsible for not doing a thorough pre-flight. (Cessna didn't get tagged in this one) Cost my in-law $9k or so.

Law suits are, for the most part, are not about justice. They're about money, IMHO. And everyone knows all pilots are filthy rich. :bad-words:

Too, bad. Sure miss those short take/landing contests.
 
I wouldn't have paid the $9K. I would have hired a hit on the pilot and his lawyer. That would have sent a message.
 
I sold an 18A back in the late 70s to a dealer in New Mexico. He sold it to a rancher who got a contract with the state for predator control. He goes out and flies into the ground one day because he was watching the dog instead of where he was going. The pilot was killed and the gunner was ejected but burned badly. (horrible situation). 4 years later a "smart ....lawyer" convinced the gunner that maybe that airplane was on fire before it hit the ground. They went back and sued the estate of the pilot, the State of new mexico, the dealer that sold it to them, the local air-service who had changed the oil, The IA that signed the last annual, and me for selling it, along with Piper A/C for building it 25 years prior; all for 2.2 mil. ( think I made a whopping $500. on selling that cub)
I had a products liability insurance who worked the case and came back and told me that I didn't have to worry about it anymore. They would not tell me why. It was assumed that they settled with these people to keep from going to court. I always felt that this was an encouragement for more frivolous suits. Never found out how everyone else came out on this. This was not very encouraging for this small business A&P trying to scrape out a living doing the thing he loves.
 
Awww crap :puppydogeyes: who the hell do I get to sue if my plane gets wrecked (assuming it leaves the ground someday)? From the sounds of it Lincoln E. might could possibly be held partially liable so maybe I could get a free welder out of the deal and start over :drinking: The liability side of our legal system has run amok the last fifty years, I wonder what the next fifty will bring.
I wonder how the liability issue affects the X-Prize? I caught part of a show on Nat. Geo. last night, and there's some guys in Canada building a rocket to drop from a balloon, another guy that's going to hurl himself out of a hydrogen/peroxide rocket and skydive back down, and of course Burt Rutan.
Hey here's a serious suggestion. How about having a gathering somewhere, and if it goes around by word of mouth that some people are going to "practice" their takeoff & landings and somebody happens to be filming the line...............nobody is organizing anything, giving any incentive, and all you get is bragging rights.
 
Used to hear storys of a bunch of guys on a spur of the moment (in Alaska)meet on some quiet beach and have a "BS eliminator" contest. Sounds like fun to me.
 
Ed,
Is there anything else you can remember about that case? Perhaps party names if possible? I'd be interested in reading through it. On another note there is a third option with respect to the competition instead of only doing it without any concern about liability and not doing it because you are scared, perhaps there could be an option where you find a lawyer who does this sort of stuff and see what sort of assistance they could provide.
 
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