Definition of PA-18, PA-11, etc.?

I am admittedly a novice, but I'm trying to learn as much as I can about Supercubs and Cubs.

I am trying to understand the formal differences between the various Cubs and Supercubs. What do the initials "PA" stand for? Is it Piper Aircraft? What does the numeral "18" stand for? I thought it was the size of the engine, but that apparently is not correct.

Can someone help me out? What do the letters "PA" stand for? What do the numerals after the letters "PA" stand for? Is there a standard reference text that someone can refer me to in my search for answers?

Tom Pliura
Ellsworth, IL

Tom, PA stands for Piper Aircraft. The number refers to the model of A/C. Taylor?Piper started with the E-2 Cub, then the J-2, J-3, J-4, J-5, PA-11,12,14,15/17,16,18,20,22,25. Supposedly the J was for Juaneson(spelling) the designer that revamped the E-2 and set off a fight between Taylor and Piper. Piper invested much money in the company that Taylor couldn't give him so Piper kept the Cub and Taylor moved on. Other accounts I have read said the J wasn't for the designer but the next letter in succession. Doesn't make sence cause I haven't seen any F,G,H,I models.

The best book I know that chronicles the history and different models of Pipers is "Mr. Piper and His Cubs". An excellent book.

removed

Gunny, Thanks. I'll have to find that book. They probably mentioned those models in "Mr. Piper and His Cubs" but I have slept to many times since then. A friend just got the "Taylorcraft Story" so I will probably learn more about the tift after I read that. Am finishing "Triumph Over Turbulence" right now. That is a pretty good one. Hope the new Cub is flying great. I need to call Mike about the Bushmaster.

Steve - Didn't you forget the PA-19? (Some people still use this designation) 8)

Tom - Until you hit the PA-20/22 Pacer family (and the PA-15 Vagabond /16 Clipper /17 Vagabond "improved" - here I need Steve's help, was it a Cub Clipper or just Clipper?) all the civilian airplanes are refered to as Cubs generically.

Taylor Cub / J-2 and J-3 Cub / J-4 Cub Coupe / J-5 Cub Cruiser / PA-11 Cub Special / PA-12 Cub Super Cruiser / PA-14 Cub Family Cruiser / PA-18 Super Cub.

Brad

PA15 Vagabond is a 2 place side by side 65 hp no bungees on the gear (used
the ballon tires for shock absorbtion). It was the first of the short wing
Pipers. They took one section out of the wing. They tend to land a little
faster. The PA17 is the same plane with dual controls and bungee landing
gear.

PA16 Clipper is a 4 place Vagabond with 108hp. We modify them to 150hp.
Makes a fun airplane.

PA20 Pacer is a Clipper with yokes instead of control sticks, shorter
ailerons and flaps. 125-180hp.

PA22 Tri-Pacer is a Pacer with a nose wheel. Alot of Tri-Pacers get
converted to tailwheels. Then they are called PA22/20.

Jamouneau did have a lot to do with the E-2 to J-2 changes, but the "J" actually fits Taylors model numbering system. Taylor used letters for the model, and the dash number was the number of seats.

A-2 Chummy
B-2 Kinner engine Chummy
C-2 Giggenheim contest plane (variable incidence wings, it didn't work)
D-1 Single place glider built for the employees, it looked a little Cubbish
E-2 First Cub
F-2 Aeromarine engine Cub
G-2 Taylor engine Cub
H-2 Szekley engine Cub
"I" was not used because it is to easily confused with "1"
J-2 First "New" Cub

After Taylor and Piper separated, Piper stuck with the "J", and started changing the dash number. Taylor started all over with his own "A", "B". A Taylorcraft BC-65 is a B model, Continental 65 powered, a BL-65 is a B model, Lycoming 65 powered, BF-65 Frankin powered. The last T-Craft was a F-19, I don't know what that stands for.

Piper dropped the J after WW2, and started with the PA11, PA12, etc.

Seems I heard at one time that the airplane is called a cub because of an early engine (?) that was named "kitten" or something to that effect. Any info on this from anyone?

The first engine tried on the E-2 was the Tiger Kitten model 30. It was a geared two cycle of about a realistic 25 hp, and supposed 40 hp at 1800 rpm. It was used in test flights, but did not produce enough power.

This is a quote from C. G. Taylor. "We were standing around one day trying to decide what to call the little plane when Ted Wells said 'Well, if the engine is a Tiger Kitten, then the plane should be a Taylor "Cub". That name sounded catchy, so we used it."

Before the A-40 Continental was used, a little French Salmson 9 cylinder radial was also used. I have seen a replica E-2 with the Salmson. Sure is a cute little thing, and supposedly flew well, but was to expensive. This is not to be confused with the other radial Cubs, the J3P with the 50 hp 3 cylinder Lenape Papoose which came later, or the H-2 with the Szekley.

The PA-18 designation was actually to be for a "hot rod" Vagabond
that had a 90 horse. I guess the aircraft was very impressive but the prototype was destroyed in a hand propping accident and never followed up on, then the SuperCub adopted the 18.

Hey guys,

A great place to relive and rediscover the evolution of Piper/Taylor aircraft production is in Lockhaven, PA at the museum. During Sentimental Journey this year (featured PA-18) there was an old gentlemen in his 80's who had worked at the Piper factory for many years and shared with us much of the history of the development and evolution of the Piper products produced at Lockhaven. It was genuinely one of the most enjoyable afternoons I've ever spent. The Piper museum is open year around but the best staffing and most information can be found during Senimental Journey. There are many displays of aircraft and poster displays chronicling Piper production from before the move to Lockhaven till the move to FL as the New Piper Company. Lockhaven would be a great Supercub.org fly in the summer. :lol:

Rick Papp.....never stay level