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PA-22/20 Producers

Airwrench

Airwrench

PATRON
Anchorage, AK
What a great site! Mark from Big Lake convinced me to take the time to look here. Thanks, Mark!
I'm new here, and in just looking around I started to reply to a few of the posts, but thought that starting a new thread would be better. And to introduce myself, since I was referenced in a few places. I am the son of Jake Bryant, Jake's Aircraft Salvage, of Anchorage, AK and Big Lake, AK. 1950's to date. Jake, passed away in 1986, but his legacy will
continue to live on in the airplanes we fly. He aquired many STC's during the years, but most significantly, he designed and built the first STC'd stretched Pacer, the "Producer". This was originally STC'd in 1959, as a one-time STC. Many years later we upgraded that to a multiple STC SA3614NM. I am still operating "Jake's Aircraft" at Big Lake.
To answer a few of the questions that I saw come through, A Pacer is a good airplane, but the "Producer" mod brings it into the SC class. Perfomance will match the SC especially on floats. I have one of them at Lake Hood, and built the other two.
Mark of Dakota Cub took lots of pics of N24MF ( the Montana Producer ) before he built his version. He did that while I was out flying his slotted wing SC. The Bushmaster is a similar story.
I normally keep my opinions to myself, but if I feel strongly about it, or feel it is a safety issue, I will toss my .02 in.
- keep the dirty side down - Steve
 
Steve, I have a Tri-Pacer fuselage and many other pieces I have been collecting for years for just such a project. I've got my Clipper down for recover/build right now and when that is done my L18C but am very interested in the Producer. I figure it as a poor man's PA14 only better. How much is the STC and what does it include. Can you tell me what kinds of things you had to change? (wing length etc.)

Thanks.
 
Steve, I build to suit, so it partially depends the other mods and features that you want. I don't sell the STC outright, It's the only way that I can protect the paperwork. basically, I lengthen the fuselage about 2 feet by building a new tail section, and installing Cub tail feathers. I rebuild and install PA-14 wings, and control surfaces. This increases wing span by 7 feet or more with tips. I can use standard PA-20 landing gear or convert to an oversized extended HD Cub style landing gear with external hydrasorbs. Left door, skylight, ext flap / ailerons, tips, tires, wheels, brakes, instrumentation, 160 hp, 180 hp, are all options. I would recommend starting with the later model PA-22's to take advantage of Piper's later features such as individual front seats, baggage door, taller instrument panel. - Steve
 
Gunny, Thanks.
The slotted wing were very impressive to fly - could not make them stall, nor roll over - excellent aileron response. The tail stalls first. Very nose high though, to get them to work (25 / 30 mph) which I forsee as a potential problem dragging it in real short, or on floats. - Steve
 
Will that be a certified airplane or experimental? I have built a jig to rebuild Clipper and Pacer fuselages. Have stayed pretty busy rebuilding complete airplanes and doing fuselage repairs. I would like to build it myself but like I said it will be a while. I don't spend near enough time on my own projects. To busy on customers.
 
Steve

I have seen your producer at Big lake a couple of times it is a great looking airplane.

Can you tell me what the cruise speed is on floats, ball park empty weight, gross weight and can you put extended fuel tanks in it?

What would the ball park figure be for the conversion if someone rolled a PA22 into your shop.

PM me if you like.

Cub_Driver
 
Do you offer the same for a Clipper? I just can't seem to get used to those yoke things.....
 
Experimentals

Thanks for all of the comments. Obviously I don't get back to this site often enough, or to my own projects either. These are certified airplanes, but for those of you that want to build your own as an experimental, I would be willing to offer ideas, thoughts, suggestions, but too much work was put into the paperwork and approval process to pass around those specifics. To build one out of a Clipper or Colt is feasable also. There are several things that I would do differently, but I am bound to the STC and cannot easily change, and stay within compliance of the STC. That would not be the case with an experimental. It is an honor to have these airplanes thought of so highly. Thanks, Steve
 
Steve,
I think the producer is a real cool airplane and I too have seen your's at Lake Hood. I just can't understand why you will not sell the STC to individuals that wish to build their own. I think if you did and especially given the current situation with field approvals, that you would see a heck of a lot more of these fine aircraft around. I have a 22/20 that I would love to convert but can't afford the 40 or 50 thousand I hear that you charge for your services. I hope this secrecy doesn't cost you in the long run. I say this because if I am not mistaken the Canadian produced certified bilaterally Bushmaster is the same aircraft and is now in the hands of some folks in Washington. I hear they are changing the AOI to match the PA 18 (what an improvement that will be). Hopefully they will realize the economics involved and sell the STC that you will not. Heck for 40 or 50 thousand I could by another Maule (but I'd still like to modify my pacer). Hope this doesn't tick you off, but I thought youd like to hear another view (and I have heard others that wish the same).

Happy Landings!
 
I agree with AKM5Driver. I realize you have a huge investment but can someone really bootleg your STC and get it approved. I repair and rebuild rag and tube A/C for a living and honestly can't afford to bring my project to AK and have someone else do what I can do if I had the proper approved data. Plus I enjoy the work. I respect you attitude because it would really piss me off if I spent much time and money working on getting something approved only to find someone copies the data and does it for nothing. I hope there could be a compromise.
 
I respect and appreciate everyones opinion, even if I may not agree with it. That is what makes us all individuals.
This may appear to be an expensive modification, but I believe that you have to concider the entire package, and compare the work involved to something that we can all relate to, lets say, a wrecked super cub that needs major fuselage work, both wings and all controls rebuilt. What would you estimate the cost? And a complete recover?
Of the original PA-22/20 that I start with, the only portion that I don't have to rework is the cabin section and engine. (wouldn't this be a good time to strip the cabin section and do a compete frame up rebuild?) This is an extensive modification, if I were to sell it, what would it be worth? As it is right now, I can control the STC and the quality of the end product.
Compromise is always an option. And price goes way down when I don't have to supply the parts. Then if I don't have to recover the entire airplane, it drops even more.
- Steve
 
Steve is right to protect his STC the way that he does. The mods done to the 22/20 are critical, and as the holder of the STC you are responsible, and because of that I would prefer to be involved in the process. The Bushmaster has come to Air Classic Rebuilders in Yakima. We have an apmhib on display, and a wheel plane coming together with the Dakota Cub slotted wing. We will sell the paper work but will want to be involved in the project. We are able to rebuild or modify an existing fuselage, or we can supply a new chrome moly ready to cover fuselage for not much more than the cost of a new Super Cub air frame. All the control surfaces and wing will be PA18 and we will be using the 360 or 540 for power. There are many amphib floats available, that make this plane the ultimate recreational vehicle.
 
I heard Cub Crafters wound up with the Salvage from 24MF. If they did, I bet you can quess what's coming next. Gotta admit Steve, that was one gorgeous airplane. I can understand you wanting to protect your STC. But gotta wonder how long it will be before the copycats are out copying one. If more people down here see them, more people are going to want one and with no possible way to get one built down here, They will find other ways of going about it. I know when I saw 24MF the first time, I was wishing I hadn't just sold my PA-22 project.
 
Steve

How about posting a couple of pictures of one of your conversions to tempt everyone.

Frank
 
Mike,
In what aspect do you want to be involved in the process? Did you all change the wing AOI to match the cub? How much i sthe STC paperwork going to cost? Do you all have a website? I have a PA 22/20 now and am wanting to do something with it.

Thanks,
Tony
 
I have a 200hp experimental bushmaster I want to sell. It's a nice airplane that really hauls a load. I have advertised it locally but can't even get a looker.

Supercub type performance but you can take 3 friends plus camping gear, then fly 600 miles at 130mph.

$30,000 might buy it. Would like to pay my 2nd. mortgage.

Don
 
Don D: Where are you located? I saw a Bushmaster listed in Trade-A-Plane a while back but never could get a download. Specs and info would be nice.
Thanks
Patrick
 
Hi Tony! We do not have a web site yet...but we can help you change your PA20 into a four place Quad Cub. We would like to modify the fuselage in our jig, but from there it's totally up to you how ever much you would like us to complete. We can use whatever variation on the Cub wing that you would desire. We like the slotted wing from Dakota Cub, but it is your choice. Don D please call or e-mail me, cause I would like buy your Bushmaster.
 
What would it cost if I broght you a totally stripped fuselage to do the mods to it and approve your work? Could that be done and then I do the rest as an A&P/IA?
 
Mike,
Did you change the wing AOI to match the cub? Also what costs am I looking at on your end, for the fuselage modification? Thanks for your response!

Tony
 
Hi Tony and Steve! We have changed the AOI on a Bushmaster, but it does not conform to the STC and is EXP. The left side door can be added with its own STC and still be certified, but it is not as big as the right side. In the EXP catagory we can make the left side the same as the right and they are aluminum frames that swing up. Both maintain the left rear door that still swings like stock, and is also aluminum framed. To modify an existing frame is about 6k plus any repairs that need to be done. These frames are all going on 50 years old, and are all trying to go back to dirt. Some are so far down that road that a new fuselage is quite often the better buy. We can provide a 100% brand new chrome moly fuselage with all the mods for about 15k. We provide the fuselage with the paper, and from there you can have your own way, or we can build the turnkey plane of your dreams. We would like to cover the lakes and ramps with Bushmasters on amphibs powered by the 360 or 540. If we can help in any way, please allow us to do that.mb
 
So you have done this on the experimental (the wing AOI) does this mean future STC ammendment is in the works? I also wish someone would STC the larger lh door. I think it is in the works with a Pacer GURU up here. I don't see why it couldn't be the same size as the Maule!

Tony

Oh ya, thanks for replying to the posts. I love this site!
 
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