Airframe mods during recover
- Thread starter murph
- Start date
Ursa Major
Registered User
Coeur d'Alene, Idaho
Murph,
You've probably already got extended baggage and a 4'metal belly, but if not, I'd consider them (you don't really need to do them during a recover - but it might be more convenient). Another couple of things might be: lifting eyes (even if you don't put it on floats it makes gear changes easier); and Atlee Dodge tie down rings and spar beef up. If you have any interest at all in a remote compass, this might also be the time to install it.
Good Luck,
You've probably already got extended baggage and a 4'metal belly, but if not, I'd consider them (you don't really need to do them during a recover - but it might be more convenient). Another couple of things might be: lifting eyes (even if you don't put it on floats it makes gear changes easier); and Atlee Dodge tie down rings and spar beef up. If you have any interest at all in a remote compass, this might also be the time to install it.
Good Luck,
cubdrvr
SPONSOR
YKN(mother city of the dakotas)
Murph......I wish I would have added a long "fish pole tube" that lays on top of the ext. baggage. For resale, or if you think you may ever use floats, now is the time to weld on float fittings. And a big circular hole cut in the floorboard directly between your legs where you can mount a removable receptacle in which to spit chew.
murph
Registered User
Rotan, TX.
Thanks, guys! Where do I find the metal belly and the fishing pole tube? I had thought about the lift ring. I guess it's pretty inexpensive? Tell me about the spar beef-up and the remote compass, Mike.
Dave, you know me, don't you. I nearly swallowed my chew when I read your post. Can't afford those expensive stogies, like you.
Keep the ideas coming.
murph
Dave, you know me, don't you. I nearly swallowed my chew when I read your post. Can't afford those expensive stogies, like you.
Keep the ideas coming.
murph
djfraudman
Registered User
Meadow Lakes, AK
Murph, You probably saw my post but if you didn't, take a look at it and the photos on my website.
http://www.supercub.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=548
There are a number of fuselage mods incorporated that need to be done during a recover.
http://www.supercub.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=548
There are a number of fuselage mods incorporated that need to be done during a recover.
Ursa Major
Registered User
Coeur d'Alene, Idaho
Murph,
The spar beef up, lifting eyes and remote compass bracket are all relatively easy to install during a wing recover. Give Atlee Dodge a call at (907) 344-1755 - he carries all of the parts. I've got a remote compass (came with the cub when I bought it) that works pretty well (the magnetic one on top of the panel doesn't-don't tell my AI).
The down side is that the remote costs several hundred bucks, is not a legal replacement for the whiskey compass, and is in my opinion, less useful than a good GPS. I'm glad I have one, but I'm not sure that I would install a new one if I was builing up the cub from scratch. I might install the bracket and wiring just in case you decide to put one in later.
I forgot to include a second lifting handle in my last post. You probably don't need an oversize one for mittens like we do, but it is handy. Lastly, you might think about welding in tail bracing or additional reinforcement to keep from twisting your tail. The welded in reinforcing necessary for a 2000lb gross weight from Wipline might be something you may be interested in, but I have no experience with it.
The metal bellies that I've seen have all been fabricated in the field and are installed with FAs. Somebody probably has an STC, but I don't know who. Mark D, Dave C., anybody know?
As for the spitoon, I gave up chew a couple of years ago so I could afford to fly (after 30+ years of Copenhagen). At least I don't have to wipe the sides of the cub down to remove the stains!
I'm looking forward to hearing about the rebuild, sounds like fun.
The spar beef up, lifting eyes and remote compass bracket are all relatively easy to install during a wing recover. Give Atlee Dodge a call at (907) 344-1755 - he carries all of the parts. I've got a remote compass (came with the cub when I bought it) that works pretty well (the magnetic one on top of the panel doesn't-don't tell my AI).
The down side is that the remote costs several hundred bucks, is not a legal replacement for the whiskey compass, and is in my opinion, less useful than a good GPS. I'm glad I have one, but I'm not sure that I would install a new one if I was builing up the cub from scratch. I might install the bracket and wiring just in case you decide to put one in later.
I forgot to include a second lifting handle in my last post. You probably don't need an oversize one for mittens like we do, but it is handy. Lastly, you might think about welding in tail bracing or additional reinforcement to keep from twisting your tail. The welded in reinforcing necessary for a 2000lb gross weight from Wipline might be something you may be interested in, but I have no experience with it.
The metal bellies that I've seen have all been fabricated in the field and are installed with FAs. Somebody probably has an STC, but I don't know who. Mark D, Dave C., anybody know?
As for the spitoon, I gave up chew a couple of years ago so I could afford to fly (after 30+ years of Copenhagen). At least I don't have to wipe the sides of the cub down to remove the stains!
I'm looking forward to hearing about the rebuild, sounds like fun.
S
StewartB
Murph,
The strut attach beef-up is a backing plate for the opposite side of the spar from the strut attachments. Small, relatively cheap. The tie-downs are fixtures that are a steel loop (bent to shape) to go over the spar outboard of the strut attach point, so your tie-downs aren't pulling on the strut end for the airplane's life. The metal belly is no more than an aluminum skin attached to the rear 3 or 4 feet that is easily removable to access the tail and to clean it out. You need to weld some tabs on the lower longeron and fab the piece. I doubt anybody up here asks for approval, and it probably isn't required by the regs, anyway. If you want an extended skylight, or greenhouse windows, metal extended baggage, etc., now's the time. What cover are you using? Your climate has different problems than ours in Alaska. Just curious.
SB
The strut attach beef-up is a backing plate for the opposite side of the spar from the strut attachments. Small, relatively cheap. The tie-downs are fixtures that are a steel loop (bent to shape) to go over the spar outboard of the strut attach point, so your tie-downs aren't pulling on the strut end for the airplane's life. The metal belly is no more than an aluminum skin attached to the rear 3 or 4 feet that is easily removable to access the tail and to clean it out. You need to weld some tabs on the lower longeron and fab the piece. I doubt anybody up here asks for approval, and it probably isn't required by the regs, anyway. If you want an extended skylight, or greenhouse windows, metal extended baggage, etc., now's the time. What cover are you using? Your climate has different problems than ours in Alaska. Just curious.
SB
murph
Registered User
Rotan, TX.
SB:
Thanks for the info. I already have some of the mods, but sure need the others that add utility and value. I haven't decided on the covering yet, but am soliciting advise on that as well. What's your opinion. I use my plane pretty hard and rough, so repairability is probably paramount.
By the way, I'll be in AK in June with PA12driver and others. Hope you, Ikatan and Ursa Major can join us somewhere.
Thanks again,
murph
Thanks for the info. I already have some of the mods, but sure need the others that add utility and value. I haven't decided on the covering yet, but am soliciting advise on that as well. What's your opinion. I use my plane pretty hard and rough, so repairability is probably paramount.
By the way, I'll be in AK in June with PA12driver and others. Hope you, Ikatan and Ursa Major can join us somewhere.
Thanks again,
murph
SuperCub MD
Registered User
Collins, Wisconsin
Atlee also has the STC for the X brace, and it provides a cross tube for the front shoulder harness mount. He also has a STC'ed removeable rear seat cross bar which is inexpensive and simple. His wing stuff is easy to install at recover. Don't forget a Atlee metal headliner.
Baggage door. I think Cub Crafters has one STC'ed. You could install the A model baggage door, parts should be available from Univair.
Lower extended baggage. If you want the bigger (CC) compartment, it needs to be done at rebuild because there is some cutting and welding, like reversing the dog leg brace. Atlees extended baggage can be installed anytime. There are pros and cons to each type. The CC is bigger, but expensive, and heavier. Atlees is smaller, but cheaper and lighter. They are both good mods, it just depends on what you want.
Upper rear baggage (fish pole tube). Biggest thing here is to get rid of the stock battery, (if you still have it), to get it out of the way. Than there are options, I don't thing anyone has any STC's for this. I don't know if you looked at mine? I like to make the entire upper rear section, (where the battery was) into a baggage area almost all the way back to the tail. I make it out of fabric, so it doesn't add much, if any weight to the plane. It is mainly to carry wing/tail/windshield/engine covers, and sleeping bags, which you probably don't have to worry about in Texas. With a access hole in the rear of the headliner, long items can easily be loaded, (fishin' poles, guns, shovels, fence posts, 2X4's, ect.)
The rear metal belly section isn't a bad idea, but some well placed inspection holes can give almost as much access, with less weight, again, it depends on what you need. A bushing in the tail spring mount, A Atlee tail brace (I like the Atlee brace on a old frame instead of a home made one because is realigns the tail when installed), and leave the lower rear triangular fuselage section uncovered. Leaving this area open allows inspection and servicing of this area, and vents the fuselage out which decreases corrosion, (Yep Murph, just like on a 'Tractor).
I think a light weight dope finish is the way to go on your plane Murph. A little more labor intensive to install properly, but easier to repair. The only thing is that the Texas heat tends to dry out a dope finish fast. It should be put on as light as possible, because a thinner film layer will resist cracking better.
Baggage door. I think Cub Crafters has one STC'ed. You could install the A model baggage door, parts should be available from Univair.
Lower extended baggage. If you want the bigger (CC) compartment, it needs to be done at rebuild because there is some cutting and welding, like reversing the dog leg brace. Atlees extended baggage can be installed anytime. There are pros and cons to each type. The CC is bigger, but expensive, and heavier. Atlees is smaller, but cheaper and lighter. They are both good mods, it just depends on what you want.
Upper rear baggage (fish pole tube). Biggest thing here is to get rid of the stock battery, (if you still have it), to get it out of the way. Than there are options, I don't thing anyone has any STC's for this. I don't know if you looked at mine? I like to make the entire upper rear section, (where the battery was) into a baggage area almost all the way back to the tail. I make it out of fabric, so it doesn't add much, if any weight to the plane. It is mainly to carry wing/tail/windshield/engine covers, and sleeping bags, which you probably don't have to worry about in Texas. With a access hole in the rear of the headliner, long items can easily be loaded, (fishin' poles, guns, shovels, fence posts, 2X4's, ect.)
The rear metal belly section isn't a bad idea, but some well placed inspection holes can give almost as much access, with less weight, again, it depends on what you need. A bushing in the tail spring mount, A Atlee tail brace (I like the Atlee brace on a old frame instead of a home made one because is realigns the tail when installed), and leave the lower rear triangular fuselage section uncovered. Leaving this area open allows inspection and servicing of this area, and vents the fuselage out which decreases corrosion, (Yep Murph, just like on a 'Tractor).
I think a light weight dope finish is the way to go on your plane Murph. A little more labor intensive to install properly, but easier to repair. The only thing is that the Texas heat tends to dry out a dope finish fast. It should be put on as light as possible, because a thinner film layer will resist cracking better.
Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
Murph, I have the stuff from Atlee I can show you.
Steve
Steve
S
StewartB
The cover question is like the oil question. Everybody has an opinion, and for the most part all the variations don't matter because they all work. I'm using Polyfiber with Aeorothane. I like the process, and the top coat is tough. Repairability isn't that important to me. All the processes can be repaired, some easier than others, but I can see the repairs in all of them.
A friend of mine that really works his plane hard has Stits with Aerothane that was done 10 years ago. Except for the typical small puncture repairs on the tail, the plane looks like it was covered yesterday. I also like the fact that Stits won't burn (at least without a lot of help).
SB
A friend of mine that really works his plane hard has Stits with Aerothane that was done 10 years ago. Except for the typical small puncture repairs on the tail, the plane looks like it was covered yesterday. I also like the fact that Stits won't burn (at least without a lot of help).
SB
murph
Registered User
Rotan, TX.
You guys are great! I start out to do a simple re-cover....ask for a little advice............now I'm getting a complete rebuild. I don't know if the insurance company is going to stand still for all of this.
Maybe I need to talk to Santa or just buy me a new TopCub. :lol:
Thanks alot everyone!
murph
Maybe I need to talk to Santa or just buy me a new TopCub. :lol:
Thanks alot everyone!
murph
PA12driver
Registered User
Battle Ground, WA
Heck Murph, If you are eating like me between Thanksgiving and Christmas you will likely want to give the SC to Cody, and buy a new PA12 fuselage for yourself! I will let you fly in mine and heck I have room in the back for all the stuff you can't fit in and bring along the stewardess as well!
I would encourage you to put in Defroster vents while the windshield is out, even if you don't use them? Also I like to see tie down rings in the baggage compartment, keeps the moose quarters from getting reborn on the ride home!
Also reinforce the heel plate areas for your feets to press on! And the list goes on-on and on!
PS: you better start tomorrow so you will be done in time to fly it, put a few dings in it and still come to Alaska! Broke in and looking rough like mine!
Merry Christmas as sugur plums dance in your head!
Tim
I would encourage you to put in Defroster vents while the windshield is out, even if you don't use them? Also I like to see tie down rings in the baggage compartment, keeps the moose quarters from getting reborn on the ride home!
Also reinforce the heel plate areas for your feets to press on! And the list goes on-on and on!
PS: you better start tomorrow so you will be done in time to fly it, put a few dings in it and still come to Alaska! Broke in and looking rough like mine!
Merry Christmas as sugur plums dance in your head!
Tim
Ursa Major
Registered User
Coeur d'Alene, Idaho
Murph,
I'll second Tim's suggestion of a defroster, sure helps visibility on a frosty morning. The combined weight of all the mods suggested isn't really that bad. My cub (a '52 PA-18 with 160hp) has all of the mods mentioned above plus 32 gal. belly tank, float fittings, 29" Bushwheels, etc., etc. and it still only weighs around 1130 lbs. Too bad you can't spend some time up here looking at mods before you do the rebuild -- or are you going to do the rebuild after your visit?
When you get up here, you'll have to go over to Atlee's, Airframes Inc., Dan's , Stoddards, Burl's, Charly Center, etc., etc. Lots of options available, some are even useful.
I'll second Tim's suggestion of a defroster, sure helps visibility on a frosty morning. The combined weight of all the mods suggested isn't really that bad. My cub (a '52 PA-18 with 160hp) has all of the mods mentioned above plus 32 gal. belly tank, float fittings, 29" Bushwheels, etc., etc. and it still only weighs around 1130 lbs. Too bad you can't spend some time up here looking at mods before you do the rebuild -- or are you going to do the rebuild after your visit?
When you get up here, you'll have to go over to Atlee's, Airframes Inc., Dan's , Stoddards, Burl's, Charly Center, etc., etc. Lots of options available, some are even useful.
PA12driver
Registered User
Battle Ground, WA
Murph,
Dirk has a really good point! That cub you see that I post pictures of all the time is a 79 that is completely stock except for chk cables, tires, prop, ext baggage, seat cushions, underseat storage, It has about 3000 hours on the airframe, original fabric. It is light and the pilot is goooood.
Alot has to do with personal preference, how long you figure on having it, and where you are at in it? the options make a lot of difference at resale and a major key is the quality of the prep work done before the rag is put back on, as well as documenting all that is done under the cover! Suggest you buy a digital camera or take lots of film! Be sure to have a good rag and tub guy/gal do the work!
Tim
Dirk has a really good point! That cub you see that I post pictures of all the time is a 79 that is completely stock except for chk cables, tires, prop, ext baggage, seat cushions, underseat storage, It has about 3000 hours on the airframe, original fabric. It is light and the pilot is goooood.
Alot has to do with personal preference, how long you figure on having it, and where you are at in it? the options make a lot of difference at resale and a major key is the quality of the prep work done before the rag is put back on, as well as documenting all that is done under the cover! Suggest you buy a digital camera or take lots of film! Be sure to have a good rag and tub guy/gal do the work!
Tim
PA12driver
Registered User
Battle Ground, WA
Grasshopper!
That is "Tube gal" not "tub" gal--they are often quite different!! However I have seen a few "ladies" that if they even did a have good job at putting on tapes, "with some hands on experience and some personal mentoring" they could improve.
The problem I had with my wife and Dope and fabric was she could not stand the smell!!
Enough said, I am degressing!
My neigbor here at parkside's gal friend worked doing Dope/Fabric for Charly Center in Alaska for (Nine years) She should be pretty good. I saw she had placed an add in GA flyer? Her name is Marsha and Jerry and her number is #360-666-1690 e-mail rainproof@aol.com
Tim
That is "Tube gal" not "tub" gal--they are often quite different!! However I have seen a few "ladies" that if they even did a have good job at putting on tapes, "with some hands on experience and some personal mentoring" they could improve.
The problem I had with my wife and Dope and fabric was she could not stand the smell!!
Enough said, I am degressing!
My neigbor here at parkside's gal friend worked doing Dope/Fabric for Charly Center in Alaska for (Nine years) She should be pretty good. I saw she had placed an add in GA flyer? Her name is Marsha and Jerry and her number is #360-666-1690 e-mail rainproof@aol.com
Tim
PA12driver
Registered User
Battle Ground, WA
who knows Murph? Give her a call!
maybe she has never experienced the second largest state?
Tim
maybe she has never experienced the second largest state?
Tim
Something I did was to get rid of the antenna on top of the wing roots, for the purpose of being able to put a tarp over the plane when I have to leave it out side, or camp under the wings. There?s an antenna in the Aircraft spruce catalog that?s made to be used in composite aircraft, it don?t need a ground plane. I laminated it to a piece of fiberglass in the shape of an ?L? and tied into the tail section before recovering the plane. It works great and cleans up the outside of the plane so I?ll have a better chance of breaking the sound barrier when I get her flying. Take your time and think long, it will hopefully be a long time before you see your baby naked agin. Good Luck from Valdez
Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
I installed one of those antenas in a Champ and it didn't work worth a darn. The manufacturer said the steel tubing blocked it.
Dave Calkins
Registered User
Anchorage, Alaska
..Must have something to do with the time warp that occurs when Valdez's Cub actually breaks the speed of sound.
Dave Calkins.
Dave Calkins.
Longwinglover
Registered User
Charlotte, NC
One thing you probably need to think about if you are putting in an "internal" antenna is what method are you using to finish the fabric.
If you are using a method that calls for coats of "silver" you may have a problem. As you know that's just a clear medium with "powdered" aluminium in it . When you put it on, you effectively "metalize" the airframe and this could shield an internally mounted antenna.
If you are using a product like Air Tech, you shouldn't have a problem as they use a different product for fill and UV protection.
If you are using a method that calls for coats of "silver" you may have a problem. As you know that's just a clear medium with "powdered" aluminium in it . When you put it on, you effectively "metalize" the airframe and this could shield an internally mounted antenna.
If you are using a product like Air Tech, you shouldn't have a problem as they use a different product for fill and UV protection.
Longwinglover
Registered User
Charlotte, NC
Murph,
Like someone said, everyone has an opinion about covering. Here's mine: Air Tech.
It's lighter than dope, doesn't burn and it's a tough, high gloss polyurathane finish. This polyurathane remains flexable because the "flex additive" isn't something that is added (and then evaporates out of the finish a few years later), it's how the paint is formulated. Repairs are NOT hard. Works easily in high humidity. This stuff was originally designed for use on dusters. The last few factory Cubs were done with this process.
There are only two drawbacks that I know of. Being a polyurathane, you HAVE TO HAVE a good breathing (fresh air supply) system for the painter. You have to have warmer temps (I think above 65) to apply.
Here are to links. One to Air Tech and the other to Specialty Aviation be sure to check out the thechnical section for Specialty. A really good "Fabric 101" write up here.
www.airtechcoatings.com
www.spava.com
Careful, you just might become a convert like I did!
Like someone said, everyone has an opinion about covering. Here's mine: Air Tech.
It's lighter than dope, doesn't burn and it's a tough, high gloss polyurathane finish. This polyurathane remains flexable because the "flex additive" isn't something that is added (and then evaporates out of the finish a few years later), it's how the paint is formulated. Repairs are NOT hard. Works easily in high humidity. This stuff was originally designed for use on dusters. The last few factory Cubs were done with this process.
There are only two drawbacks that I know of. Being a polyurathane, you HAVE TO HAVE a good breathing (fresh air supply) system for the painter. You have to have warmer temps (I think above 65) to apply.
Here are to links. One to Air Tech and the other to Specialty Aviation be sure to check out the thechnical section for Specialty. A really good "Fabric 101" write up here.
www.airtechcoatings.com
www.spava.com
Careful, you just might become a convert like I did!
