TIG welding wire....
- Thread starter CptKelly
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180Marty
MEMBER
Paullina, Ia
Filler: Alloy, Dia, root gap, etc for 4130 tube
Hi CptKelly;
Filler rod for TIG welding 4130 tubing? I always thought they used 4130 rod... I've heard of people using a slightly different alloy rod with some base metals to compensate for the base materials poor weldability or tendency to crack- Like heli-brazing cast iron. Or to compensate for elements that vaporize slightly from the base material due to the welding process itself (I think aluminum looses a small amount of silicone, and carbon can disappear slightly during a heat treat processes, so probably welding too.) But I have not heard of any of those issues welding 4130... For peace of mind, you might want to get a book published by the "American Welding Society" (AWS), and make sure you are looking under TIG, not MIG or any other process. As far as filler rod diameter goes, usually the same diameter as the base material thickness is best, but slightly larger is OK. It's not that critical, as long as it doesn't cool the puddle too much when you dab it in (using 3/16 rod on .030 material would likely cool the puddle too much.) More importantly, make sure the two base metals have a root gap opening between them so your weld will completely wet the full thickness of both members and substantially increase your chances of full penetration which is your goal- A root gap opening of about half the base metal thickness (for the tubing wall thicnesses you suggest) should get you close. If it's not there, grind or file material away to make one. It's not likely you will actually get 100 percent penetration, regardless of your effort, but the closer you come to it, the better off you are. The reinforcement "hump" on top adds another 15 percent or so to the total weld thickness, and so it is NOT customarily ground off for structural applications. The truth is most A&P/IA's don't try to weld, and they just take it to someone who does weld regularly because the quality is much better. The problem is that smart weldors don't like the liability associated with doing aircraft work, and are usually not licensed for it (generally), but they might do it for cash without a sales receipt. Do not weld aircraft structural aluminum as it all goes dead soft (becomes annealed) and most of it isn't even a weldable alloy anyway- If the weldor you solicit will do this, you found a stupid weldor, run away quickly. 4130 Chromolly is always safe to weld as it's not heat treated, or even heat treatable, and it welds as easy as mild steel (and is much easier to do than aluminum welding). Sorry this is so long winded...
Hi CptKelly;
Filler rod for TIG welding 4130 tubing? I always thought they used 4130 rod... I've heard of people using a slightly different alloy rod with some base metals to compensate for the base materials poor weldability or tendency to crack- Like heli-brazing cast iron. Or to compensate for elements that vaporize slightly from the base material due to the welding process itself (I think aluminum looses a small amount of silicone, and carbon can disappear slightly during a heat treat processes, so probably welding too.) But I have not heard of any of those issues welding 4130... For peace of mind, you might want to get a book published by the "American Welding Society" (AWS), and make sure you are looking under TIG, not MIG or any other process. As far as filler rod diameter goes, usually the same diameter as the base material thickness is best, but slightly larger is OK. It's not that critical, as long as it doesn't cool the puddle too much when you dab it in (using 3/16 rod on .030 material would likely cool the puddle too much.) More importantly, make sure the two base metals have a root gap opening between them so your weld will completely wet the full thickness of both members and substantially increase your chances of full penetration which is your goal- A root gap opening of about half the base metal thickness (for the tubing wall thicnesses you suggest) should get you close. If it's not there, grind or file material away to make one. It's not likely you will actually get 100 percent penetration, regardless of your effort, but the closer you come to it, the better off you are. The reinforcement "hump" on top adds another 15 percent or so to the total weld thickness, and so it is NOT customarily ground off for structural applications. The truth is most A&P/IA's don't try to weld, and they just take it to someone who does weld regularly because the quality is much better. The problem is that smart weldors don't like the liability associated with doing aircraft work, and are usually not licensed for it (generally), but they might do it for cash without a sales receipt. Do not weld aircraft structural aluminum as it all goes dead soft (becomes annealed) and most of it isn't even a weldable alloy anyway- If the weldor you solicit will do this, you found a stupid weldor, run away quickly. 4130 Chromolly is always safe to weld as it's not heat treated, or even heat treatable, and it welds as easy as mild steel (and is much easier to do than aluminum welding). Sorry this is so long winded...
behindpropellers
Registered User
NE Ohio
Do some searches on the miller and Lincoln sites. Both of them have lots of info on welding 4130. If you bent your plane and are going to have a friend fix it, make sure they are using the A+P bible. Getting somebody who works on tractors to fix your plane can be a mistake. I think I have seen both er60 and er80 discussed in 4130 welding apps though.
Tim
Tim
Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
We use Rg60. If it is to be heat treated we use 4130 rod. This is also what Air Tractor uses. 1/16 for thin wall tubing.
180Marty
MEMBER
Paullina, Ia
Interesting so far. When I first started 10 years ago, I stopped at the sprint car chassis builder in Sioux Falls and they used RG 60 for chromolly. I got some and started practicing. Then I went to the technical school and bought the book and it says ER80S-D2. I talked to Jim Soares when he was still going and he used ER70S-2 on Supercubs. I got Richard Finch's book and he says certified VAR 4130. If you look at the link in my previous post for tigdepot, Wyatt Swaim who has taught at Sport Air classes says ER80S-D2. I read somewhere that RG 60 is really for oxy welding. I've used them all and can't really see any difference but used mostly ER80----anytime I've broken a joint for testing it always breaks a little ways from the weld at the heat affected zone.
Marty
Marty
180Marty
MEMBER
Paullina, Ia
Make sure you read the last sentence here.
Rg-60 Filler For Tig
can i use RG-60 filler rod for tig welding mild steel ??
my local supply shop said i can, but when i use it compared to ER70S2 filler, it looks kind of different.
i had some laying around and decided to try it out, but went ahead and bought some ER70S2 filler to be safe.
just practicing for now, not welding anything critical.
thanks....
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#2
Old 12-07-2006, 04:01 PM
Billet Benny Billet Benny is online now
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The jist of it is, yes you can use it, but no you should not.. It's is an oxy/fuel welding filler and not suitable for tig work.
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Old 12-08-2006, 08:26 AM
FABMAN FABMAN is offline
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thanks benny for the help.
my supply guy is a waco. LOL.
little by little i will aquire different fillers so i can have the right filler for the job.
thanks again.
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Old 12-08-2006, 10:40 AM
BillC BillC is offline
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The slightly longer answer is that O/A filler metal does not contain the deoxidizers that MIG/TIG wire contain. O/A welding keeps the workpiece hot enough long enough that the COx can evolve out of the weld; TIG does not. The potential result is porosity in your weld.
Regards,
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Rg-60 Filler For Tig
can i use RG-60 filler rod for tig welding mild steel ??
my local supply shop said i can, but when i use it compared to ER70S2 filler, it looks kind of different.
i had some laying around and decided to try it out, but went ahead and bought some ER70S2 filler to be safe.
just practicing for now, not welding anything critical.
thanks....
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Lincoln AC/DC 225/125
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#2
Old 12-07-2006, 04:01 PM
Billet Benny Billet Benny is online now
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The jist of it is, yes you can use it, but no you should not.. It's is an oxy/fuel welding filler and not suitable for tig work.
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#3
Old 12-08-2006, 08:26 AM
FABMAN FABMAN is offline
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thanks benny for the help.
my supply guy is a waco. LOL.
little by little i will aquire different fillers so i can have the right filler for the job.
thanks again.
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#4
Old 12-08-2006, 10:40 AM
BillC BillC is offline
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The slightly longer answer is that O/A filler metal does not contain the deoxidizers that MIG/TIG wire contain. O/A welding keeps the workpiece hot enough long enough that the COx can evolve out of the weld; TIG does not. The potential result is porosity in your weld.
Regards,
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180Marty
MEMBER
Paullina, Ia
This is from the Miller forum.
You can find vacuum melt 4130 filler that has no coating but it's very expensive and only for parts that are to be annealed, hardened, and tempered after welding. Whatever you do don't tig with RG60 or whatever. It has no coating but it's an oxy fuel rod and not near ideal for tig work. Search this forum too..
You can find vacuum melt 4130 filler that has no coating but it's very expensive and only for parts that are to be annealed, hardened, and tempered after welding. Whatever you do don't tig with RG60 or whatever. It has no coating but it's an oxy fuel rod and not near ideal for tig work. Search this forum too..
Ruidoso Ron
Registered User
Alto, NM
Richard Finch is a friend of mine, and asked me to post this response for him:
Richard Finch EAA, AWS, SAE
Regarding the right welding rod to use when TIG welding 4130 steel ............. The big manufacturers, Lincoln and Miller, don't recommend anything but the rod they sell, read this again and again. They don't recommend any rod that they don't sell, but in private and in their schools, they recommend Vacuum Melt, Metallurgically Controlled 4130 rod for the best results. Any Lincoln or Miller rep who tried to steer you away from rod they make and sell, would loose their jobs immediately. Miller and Lincoln don't make VM, MC grade 4130 and therefore can't recommend what they don't make. But they SHOULD MAKE IT !!
The fact is, read my two books, "Welder's Handbook" sold at Lowe's, Home Depot and Sears stores for $16 and read my other book, " Performance Welding" sold by Motorbooks International at $25. I am very plain about the proper choice of welding rod that is best to use for TIG welding 4130 steel. If you can't afford the two books, check them out in a library or on the web site at Amazon.com.
About the higher cost of VM MC grade, 4130 rod, it will cost about $25 to weld up a Super Cub engine mount , using the best rod versus only $ 2 for the cheap stuff RG60, etc. If you can afford a Super Cub, then the good welding rod should not be a factor.
Just this morning I used my Lincoln TIG welder and VM, MC Grade 4130 rod to make a repair on a homebuilt Nesmith Cougar, and the rod cost me less than $1 for the entire repair. Cost should not be a factor in maintaining your very valuable Super Cubs.
Regards,
Richard Finch, former PIPER Aerostar welder, and book author with a Masters degree in aeronautical engineering....
Richard Finch EAA, AWS, SAE
Regarding the right welding rod to use when TIG welding 4130 steel ............. The big manufacturers, Lincoln and Miller, don't recommend anything but the rod they sell, read this again and again. They don't recommend any rod that they don't sell, but in private and in their schools, they recommend Vacuum Melt, Metallurgically Controlled 4130 rod for the best results. Any Lincoln or Miller rep who tried to steer you away from rod they make and sell, would loose their jobs immediately. Miller and Lincoln don't make VM, MC grade 4130 and therefore can't recommend what they don't make. But they SHOULD MAKE IT !!
The fact is, read my two books, "Welder's Handbook" sold at Lowe's, Home Depot and Sears stores for $16 and read my other book, " Performance Welding" sold by Motorbooks International at $25. I am very plain about the proper choice of welding rod that is best to use for TIG welding 4130 steel. If you can't afford the two books, check them out in a library or on the web site at Amazon.com.
About the higher cost of VM MC grade, 4130 rod, it will cost about $25 to weld up a Super Cub engine mount , using the best rod versus only $ 2 for the cheap stuff RG60, etc. If you can afford a Super Cub, then the good welding rod should not be a factor.
Just this morning I used my Lincoln TIG welder and VM, MC Grade 4130 rod to make a repair on a homebuilt Nesmith Cougar, and the rod cost me less than $1 for the entire repair. Cost should not be a factor in maintaining your very valuable Super Cubs.
Regards,
Richard Finch, former PIPER Aerostar welder, and book author with a Masters degree in aeronautical engineering....
Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
Hi my name is Bill Moody I work for Air Tractor, the company has been building crop dusters for over 50 years with some that weight over 16,000 pounds and cruise at over 180 mph. I have been welding for them for the last 12 years as an FAA certified welder. I have seen these things completely destroyed in crashes, most of the time the pilot walks away. I get a first hand look at the welds in the aftermath. I have yet to see one weld failure all of the tears and rips are in the heat affected zone or the tube itself the rod we use, drum roll please ........... R.G. 60. We do have the ER70s-6 but the only reason is we can not get R.G. 60 in .045. We use 1/16, 3/32 and some .045. We weld the gear structure in a jig by itself and keep it at 400 degrees and weld it with 4130 but it gets sent out and heat treated. That is the only thing that we use 4130 on. We use to use 4130 VM but we quit and just use 4130 rod on heat treat stuff only.
Bill Moody
I saw what was left of a rear engined dragster that Bill built and welded with RG60 rod that got loose at 176 mph and balled up. The tubes and the heat effected zones ripped and tore Bill recently took his yearly welding test. They do a pull test on a 1" .058" butt welded tube without an internal sleeve. Out of 20 welders only 3 had the tube fail rather than the heat effected zone. Bill's was one of them. The tube belled out to between 3/4-1/2" and broke at 19,900 psi. The tubes that broke at the heat effected zone broke at between 18,800 and 18,900 psi. The reason the heat effected zone breaks is too much heat and not enough rod. RG60 rod has a tensile strength of 60,000psi, ER70 is 70,000 psi, 4130 tubing is 90,000 psi. There is a lot of information on this thread and on the Internet. I don't know all the people who posted what to use and what not. I do know that Air Tractor employees a hand full of engineers and has seen every kind of failure from destructive testing to real world experience in the harshest of environments. I will stick with what I know and what has been proven to me.
Bill Moody
I saw what was left of a rear engined dragster that Bill built and welded with RG60 rod that got loose at 176 mph and balled up. The tubes and the heat effected zones ripped and tore Bill recently took his yearly welding test. They do a pull test on a 1" .058" butt welded tube without an internal sleeve. Out of 20 welders only 3 had the tube fail rather than the heat effected zone. Bill's was one of them. The tube belled out to between 3/4-1/2" and broke at 19,900 psi. The tubes that broke at the heat effected zone broke at between 18,800 and 18,900 psi. The reason the heat effected zone breaks is too much heat and not enough rod. RG60 rod has a tensile strength of 60,000psi, ER70 is 70,000 psi, 4130 tubing is 90,000 psi. There is a lot of information on this thread and on the Internet. I don't know all the people who posted what to use and what not. I do know that Air Tractor employees a hand full of engineers and has seen every kind of failure from destructive testing to real world experience in the harshest of environments. I will stick with what I know and what has been proven to me.
Don't forget, the filler material is usually put on at a much greater thickness than the tube wall. Therefore, any non-brittle rod that approximates the strength and makes a satisfactory weld, is more than good enough.
For those that have used VM, is it easier to weld than RG60?
For those that have used VM, is it easier to weld than RG60?
Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
Air Tractor used to use 4130VM on the heat treated parts but the rod rusts very quickly so they switched to 4130. The engineers had to rewrite their procedures manual so it wasn't as easy as just switching.
jnorris
MEMBER
Wisconsin
Keep in mind that there have been hundreds (more likely thousands) of aircraft welded with Oxweld 7 (RG45) rod over the years. (I built one myself!) Providing that the welds were done properly, I haven't seen any of these falling apart at the seams.
While there certainly would be differences in strength and ductility in welds done with these different rods, you'd need a lab in order to be able to tell the difference. I doubt that we'd know in the field which was which when judged by service history. (i.e., problems with welds will more likely be tracked down to faulty technique rather than difference in materials.)
In short, decide who you want to believe and use what they recommend! Me, I'll use RG60, ER70S, or ER80S and I'm sure I'll get satisfactory results.
While there certainly would be differences in strength and ductility in welds done with these different rods, you'd need a lab in order to be able to tell the difference. I doubt that we'd know in the field which was which when judged by service history. (i.e., problems with welds will more likely be tracked down to faulty technique rather than difference in materials.)
In short, decide who you want to believe and use what they recommend! Me, I'll use RG60, ER70S, or ER80S and I'm sure I'll get satisfactory results.
Dave Calkins
Registered User
Anchorage, Alaska
I've read all these posts and I don't believe anyone has gotten to the point I am about to make:
The reason that we don't commonly use 4130 filler for most light-aircraft weld assemblies is that it has a tendency to crack as it cools. The edges of the weld with the "less ductile" 4130 filler crack as they cool.
This does not occur with the more ductile fillers such as ER80, 70S-2, and RG60.
Sure, if you intend to pre- and post-heat, followed by actual heat treating of the assembly, you will be filling with 4130VM........but if not, then choose a more ductile filler.
DAVE
The reason that we don't commonly use 4130 filler for most light-aircraft weld assemblies is that it has a tendency to crack as it cools. The edges of the weld with the "less ductile" 4130 filler crack as they cool.
This does not occur with the more ductile fillers such as ER80, 70S-2, and RG60.
Sure, if you intend to pre- and post-heat, followed by actual heat treating of the assembly, you will be filling with 4130VM........but if not, then choose a more ductile filler.
DAVE
