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150hp to 160hp, is it worth it??

supercub

MEMBER
Let me check my GPS, gee how'd we ever navigate w
Ok, looks like I may have to tear my engine down. Cylinders are ok, but have a problem with the case. Time SMOH is around 400hrs. My question is..........while it's down, should I go ahead and convert to a 160hp? Is it worth the money?? What's the pro's and cons? Any and all opinions are appreciated. I've been told, that if I do this, that I should buy all new cylinder assemblies, instead of using my old cylinders. Thanks for the help.
Brian
 
Horsepower is a pilots best friend. I would change mine if I was in your situation.pak
 
Lots of positives, only three negatives I can think of:
Higher heat
Higher octane required
and on some but not all 160's higher fuel burn (I have known of two with lower fuel burns after an engine swap 150-160)

One other I'm not sure about, did they extend the 180+ hp Lycoming AD on the crankshaft down to 160 hp engines now?
 
AD98-02-08 Textron Lycoming: Amendment 39-10291.
Docket 94-ANE-44.
Applicability: Textron Lycoming 320 series limited
to 160 horsepower, and 360 series, four cylinder reciprocating
engines with fixed pitch propellers; except for the
following installed in helicopters or with solid
crankshafts: HO-360 series, HIO-360 series, LHIO-360
series, VO-360 series, and IVO-360 series, and Models O-320-
B2C, O-360-J2A, AEIO-360-B4A, O-360-A4A, -A4G, -A4J, -A4K,
-A4M, and -C4F. In addition, engines with crankshafts
containing "PID" stamped on the outside diameter of the
propeller flange are exempt from the inspection requirements
of this AD. The affected engines are installed on but not
limited to reciprocating engine powered aircraft
manufactured by Cessna, Piper, Beech, American Aircraft
Corporation, Grumman American Aviation, Mooney, Augustair
Inc., Maule Aerospace Technology Corporation, Great Lakes
Aircraft Co., and Commander Aircraft Co.

Note 1: This airworthiness directive (AD) applies to
each engine identified in the preceding applicability
provision, regardless of whether it has been modified,
altered, or repaired in the area subject to the requirements
of this AD. For engines that have been modified, altered,
or repaired so that the performance of the requirements of
this AD is affected, the owner/operator must request
approval for an alternative method of compliance in
accordance with paragraph (g) of this AD. The request
should include an assessment of the effect of the
modification, alteration, or repair on the unsafe condition
addressed by this AD; and, if the unsafe condition has not
been eliminated, the request should include specific
proposed actions to address it.

Compliance: Required as indicated, unless accomplished
previously.
To prevent crankshaft failure, which can result in
engine failure, propeller separation, forced landing, and
possible damage to the aircraft, accomplish the following:
(a) For engines shipped new from Textron Lycoming prior
to and including December 31, 1984, and that have never been
overhauled, or any engine remanufactured or overhauled and
that has accumulated 1,000 hours or more time in service
(TIS) since remanufacture or overhaul, visually inspect the
inside diameter (ID) of the crankshaft for corrosion pits
within the next 100 hours TIS after the effective date of
this AD, or 6 months after the effective date of this AD,
whichever occurs first, in accordance with Textron Lycoming
Mandatory Service Bulletin (MSB) No. 505B, dated December 1,
1997.
(1) If corrosion pits are found during this
inspection, prior to further flight, accomplish the
following:
(i) If the crankshaft is installed in
the engine such as during an on-wing inspection, perform a
fluorescent penetrant inspection (FPI) in accordance with Textron
Lycoming MSB No. 505B, dated December 1, 1997.
(ii) If the crankshaft is removed from the
engine at overhaul, perform a magnetic particle inspection
(MPI) in accordance with Textron Lycoming MSB No. 505B,
dated December 1, 1997.
(2) Within 48 hours after these inspections,
report the finding of the inspection in accordance with paragraph
(e) of this AD.
(b) For engines shipped new from Textron Lycoming after
December 31, 1984, and that have never been overhauled, or
any engine remanufactured or overhauled and that has
accumulated less than 1,000 hours TIS since remanufacture or
overhaul, visually inspect the ID of the crankshaft for
corrosion pits, at the earliest occurrence of any event
specified in subparagraph (3) of this paragraph, and in
accordance with Textron Lycoming MSB No. 505B, dated
December 1, 1997.
(1) If corrosion pits are found during this
inspection, prior to further flight perform an FPI or MPI in
accordance with Textron Lycoming MSB No. 505B, dated
December 1, 1997.
(2) Within 48 hours after these inspections,
report the finding of the inspection in accordance with paragraph
(e) of this AD.
(3) Visually inspect the ID of the crankshaft
for corrosion pits at the earliest of the following:
(i) The next engine overhaul or disassembly.
(ii) Within 10 years of the original
shipping date or 6 months from the effective date of this AD,
whichever occurs later.
(iii) Within 1,000 hours TIS since
remanufacture or overhaul, or 6 months from the effective
date of this AD, whichever occurs later.
(c) Thereafter, if no corrosion pits or cracks are found
on the ID of the crankshaft during the initial visual
inspection, perform a visual inspection at intervals not to
exceed 5 years since last inspection, or at the next engine
overhaul or disassembly, whichever occurs first, in
accordance with Textron Lycoming MSB No. 505B, dated
December 1, 1997. If corrosion pits but no cracks are found
on the ID of the crankshaft during the initial visual
inspection and the ID does not exceed the maximum ID
specified in Textron Lycoming MSB No. 505B, dated December
1, 1997, repeat the FPI at intervals not to exceed 100 hours
TIS since last FPI or until a serviceable crankshaft is
installed in the engine.
(d) Prior to further flight, remove from service and
replace with a serviceable part any crankshaft found cracked
during FPI or MPI performed in accordance with Textron
Lycoming MSB No. 505B, dated December 1, 1997.
(e) After accomplishing the initial visual inspection
and, if necessary, the FPI or MPI, required by this AD,
complete Appendix 1 of this AD and submit to the Manager,
New York Aircraft Certification Office, FAA, Engine and
Propeller Directorate, 10 Fifth St., Valley Stream, NY
11581; fax (516) 568-2716. Reporting requirements have been
approved by the Office of Management and Budget and assigned
OMB control number 2120-0056.
(f) The application of Urethabond 104 to the inner bore
of the crankshaft and confirmed by stamping of the letters
"PID" on the outside diameter of the propeller flange in
accordance with Textron Lycoming MSB No. 530, dated December
1, 1997, constitutes terminating action to the inspection
requirements of this AD.
(g) An alternative method of compliance or adjustment of
the compliance time that provides an acceptable level of
safety may be used if approved by the Manager, New York
Aircraft Certification Office. Operators shall submit their
requests through an appropriate FAA Principal Maintenance
Inspector, who may add comments and then send it to the
Manager, New York Aircraft Certification Office.

Note 2: Information concerning the existence of
approved alternative methods of compliance with this
airworthiness directive, if any, may be obtained from the
New York Aircraft Certification Office.

(h) Special flight permits may be issued in accordance
with sections 21.197 and 21.199 of the Federal Aviation
Regulations (14 CFR 21.197 and 21.199) to operate the
aircraft to a location where the requirements of this AD can
be accomplished.
(i) The actions required by this AD shall be done in
accordance with the following Textron Lycoming MSB:

Document No. Pages Date

505B 1-5 December 1, 1997
Total Pages: 5

530 1-2 December 1, 1997
Total Pages: 2

This incorporation by reference was approved by the Director
of the Federal Register in accordance with 5 U.S.C. 552(a)
and 1 CFR part 51. Copies may be obtained from Textron
Lycoming, 652 Oliver St., Williamsport, PA 17701; telephone
(717) 327-7080, fax (717) 327-7100. Copies may be inspected
at the FAA, New England Region, Office of the Regional
Counsel, 12 New England Executive Park, Burlington, MA; or
at the Office of the Federal Register, 800 North Capitol
Street NW., suite 700, Washington, DC.
(j) This amendment becomes effective on March 30, 1998.

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Rocco Viselli or Raymond
Reinhardt, Aerospace Engineers, New York Aircraft
Certification Office, FAA, Engine and Propeller Directorate,
10 Fifth St., Valley Stream, NY 11581-1200; telephone (516)
256-7531, fax (516) 568-2716.


********************** Appendix 1 ************************

ILLUSTRATION (Survey Form Original)

TEXTRON LYCOMING CRANKSHAFT INSPECTION SURVEY
AD DOCKET NO. 94-ANE-44

Date of Inspection _____________________

Inspector?s Information
Name
__________________________________________________________
Address
__________________________________________________________
State _________________________ Zip Code___________
Telephone No. _________________________ Facsimile No.
_________________________

Engine Model Number ____________________

Engine Serial Number (S/N) _________________________

Date of Manufacture _______________ (M/D/YR) Total
Time (TT) _________ hrs

Time Since Major Overhaul (SMOH) _____________ hrs

Crankshaft Part Number (located on prop flange)
________________________
S/N _______________________

Aircraft Make and Model
_________________________________________________________

Frequency of Flights _____________ per month (average)
Duration __________ hrs per Flight

How was aircraft being utilized? ____ Training, ____

Personal, ____ Banner Towing,
____ Glider Towing, ____ Agricultural, Other (please
explain)
____________________________________

Propeller Make and Model
_______________________________________________________

Has the aircraft ever experienced a propeller strike during
service? _____ Yes ______ No

Was propeller ever removed for servicing or overhaul?
_____Yes ______ No

If yes, describe reason for removal in detail?
____________________________________________________________
____________________________________________________________

What was the condition of the crankshaft internal bore?
Corroded ____ Yes ____ No If corroded, how many pits?
___ 1 to 5, ___ 6 to 10, ___ More than 10
Was a crack found? ____ Yes ____ No If crack was
found, complete the following:
______ Distance from crankshaft end (Inches)
______ Crack Length (Inches)

COMMENTS:
____________________________________________________________
____________________________________________________________
____________________________________________________________
 
I would definitely change to a 160 if you already have a wide deck engine. Burns less gas than a 150. Mine runs cooler than most 150s but I have a light weight oil cooler. When temp gets below 50F I start covering the cooler. Cyl head temps very rarely go above 400, only in prolonged climbs. My engine was a first run 2000 hour engine. I just rehoned the cylinders and put in new valves/guides pistons and rings. Just short of 1000 smoh now and still 78/80. Standard steel Lyc cylinders. Ive burned around 4000 gal of 91 auto with no problems, the rest 100LL. I will never be at a remote artic village so the availability of gas is not a factor for me.
 
I bumped my compression up while retaining the old cylinders. It runs cooler, as would be expected (according to the Lycoming mass flow charts, the 160 requires roughly about 20% less mass flow rate for cooling than the 150). Available power is noticeably improved. It was a cheap upgrade, and a good bang for the buck. If you have a narrow deck, you'll need the reinforcement plates, and if I remember correctly, you'll need to change a few mounting studs.
JimC
 
While we're on the subject of wide vs. narrow deck............I have a narrow deck, and a Lycoming guy told me that under no circumstances should I consider modifying it to a 160. Is this because it is not a Lycoming factory mod, or is this really something that should be avoided? I understand the reasoning for the backup plates, etc. After all this is done, is there enough beef in the case to hold the jugs on?
 
The front main bearing is thicker. That and the plates are the only difference I know of. I have one of each disassembled in the shop.
 
If I remember correctly, the 150 ND jugs are spot faced on the flange so the hold down nuts sit flat, and the 160 ND jugs are not so that the plates sit flush. Use 150 ND jugs with hold down plates and the jugs may blow off, not to mention that it wouldn't be legal either. And the fins on the 150 ND jug extend to far down the barrel to make room for the plates. Add up the price of a set of honest 160 ND jugs, the plates and all the longer studs, and the 160 ND conversion makes no sense.
 
Mark is correct. The 150hp jugs I have seen have the spot faced flange and the fins are closer to the flange. Makes getting that internal wrenching cylinder wrench more of a pain in the ass to get on than it already is.

Factory 160 hp narrow decks had the bigger front main, longer thru studs, flush flanged cylinder bases and the crush plate around the cylinder base flange.

I am getting a field approval on installing a 150hp on my Clipper. I bought a set of low time 150hp Millenium cylinders on eBay and a 160 hp narrow deck engine. I talked to a machinist about milling the flanges and it is economically feasible. Seems some of the cylinder shops do this. I ended up buying a 150hp narrow deck case from a SC.org member.
 
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