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J3 flying from front seat

Not ALL single engine airplanes meet the spin requirements for certification. The Cirrus doesn’t meet it, but rather has an equivalent level of safety with the stupid parachute.

Something to consider with regard to spins, it isn’t only being within the CG envelope that is important, but where the mass is located. Using a ballast weight on the tail post will have a greater negative impact on spin recovery than using a larger weight farther forward to achieve the same CG location. Any weight at the extreme location will have a greater centrifugal force reducing the ability to stop rotation.

Everything is a compromise. Having the CG farther aft is more efficient, makes getting the tail down easier for landing. But it reduces your spin margins, and reduces stabilizing on the ground (tailwheel airplanes). Pick your poison!


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Not ALL single engine airplanes meet the spin requirements for certification. The Cirrus doesn’t meet it, but rather has an equivalent level of safety with the stupid parachute.
The Cirrus was spin tested it failed, which is why the parachute was installed.
 
.....Everything is a compromise. Having the CG farther aft is more efficient, makes getting the tail down easier for landing. But it reduces your spin margins, and reduces stabilizing on the ground (tailwheel airplanes). Pick your poison!

Aft CG also reduces your cargo loading capacity.
 
CG also changes quite a bit in flight with a J3. You take off with a full nose tank and by the time you're ready to land you've burned 60lbs of gas from the nose and shifted the CG rear. That's 5% of the aircraft weight in fuel. It's a noticeable and constant change in trim in cruise flight as you burn off gas.
 
Thank you all for the helpful input. Yesterday we brought home my new to me J3 and I had a chance to try the front seat for the first time. you are right - it’s tight up there. I think I’ll like the back better.

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Aft CG also reduces your cargo loading capacity.

A J3/pa11 has a larger baggage then a super Cub if you fly from the back seat. Pull the front stick and cover it, unhook front rudder and brake rods, all
this takes about 15 minutes.fill the front floor and seat right to the roof with your crap. Forward view is no difference then flying with a passenger

Glenn
 
Skywagon brings up a great point. I am not a test pilot, and only teach spin entries and recoveries, not fully wound-up spins - but my impression is that any aircraft, if pushed, can get into an unrecoverable or difficult-to recover from spin.

My buddies say it cannot happen to aerobatic aircraft, and maybe control cable breakage is the culprit when a multi-turn spin results in a crash.
 
My buddies say it cannot happen to aerobatic aircraft, and maybe control cable breakage is the culprit when a multi-turn spin results in a crash.
I used to believe it could not happen.........until it did. Nothing broke either. Just try to imagine a seven turn spin with a loss of 700 feet. It felt like a maple leaf slowly spinning down. Fortunately the engine kept running. If it had not..........then recovery may have been impossible.

This was a certified airplane with a normal type certificate.
 
skywagon I'm curious your take on spins in a float plane? I've heard different things on this from my instructors, my first instructor when I asked him one day out in the c152 after doing spins told me not to try it you might not be able to recover and to not even try stalls. he was not a seaplane rated pilot by the way. fast forward 13 months after I had my license I start my float training with a seasoned float pilot from quebec, he was a wealth of practical knowledge and wish I got more time with him. anyways first thing he tells me to do after I takeoff for my first flight is go stall the plane , he aint landing until he knows what it stalls at first. of course my brain goes right back to instructor #1 saying don't stall the floatplane! needless to say we were fine and after I asked him about spins, he said they are fine just longer to recover. I haven't tried though.
 
Thank you all for the helpful input. Yesterday we brought home my new to me J3 and I had a chance to try the front seat for the first time. you are right - it’s tight up there. I think I’ll like the back better.

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After awhile you'll love the back seat. It's not only more comfortable but easier to fly in the back. Wings level? No problem you can look at both at the same time. No need to look at that stupid ball in a turn, you own will tell you if your copacetic. Knees get stiff just lay them on top of rudder pedals or out on the struts. Bungee a pack on the front seat and everything you need from snacks to batteries are right in front where you can see and find them. And the best part of all is enjoying the looks and smiles of all the kids and folks getting their first Cub ride. Priceless
 
skywagon I'm curious your take on spins in a float plane?
In order for any single engine plane to be certificated in the normal category one of the requirements is that it be able to recover from a spin. First it must complete one full turn, then it must stop the spin prior to the completion of the second full turn. I did the flight testing to certify the EDO 696-3500 amphibious floats on the Cessna 185 with my 185. For the spin portion of the testing, the plane was loaded to the aft CG limit at max gross weight. The spins were done in both directions. Some with the power at idle. Some with the power at full throttle. Some with the flaps up and some with the full 40 degrees of flaps down. Some with the ailerons into the turn and some with the ailerons against the turn. The nose was pointed well down in the turns. In none of the spins was recovery ever a question. Lots of spins.

These spins were done during the investigating phase of the testing and again during the demonstration to the FAA. After this demonstration the airplane is placarded "Intentional Spins Prohibited". In order to remove the no spinning restriction, a six turn spin must be completed prior to stopping the spin in one turn. There is no advantage for a float plane to be certified to allow intentional spins.

Due to the floats hanging low the plane does spin a bit more nose down than a plane without floats. If you have wing tip fuel tanks and spin with one tank full and the other empty, it will turn faster in one direction than the other. Spin testing is required for extra fuel tank installations also.

My take? A spin is a spin. Floats or no floats. I did spin testing with my E-AB TCOW Cub on floats. Chances are few pilots have done intentional spins with float planes since they are taught that "Intentional Spins Prohibited". When I did these spins the airplane was licensed in the Experimental-Research and Development category.
 
thanks! its nice to hear first hand info like that. eases my mind now to play around some more in my PA12, I still wont be doing any intentional spins though. just more stalls in different conditions so I know the plane better.
 
thanks! its nice to hear first hand info like that. eases my mind now to play around some more in my PA12, I still wont be doing any intentional spins though. just more stalls in different conditions so I know the plane better.
Keep in mind, a spin is a stall maneuver in which one wing is stalled. As a result the forward indicated airspeed will be low. So, after you stop the rotation raise the nose quickly before the speed builds. This will keep the wing loading low. If you hesitate in raising the nose the speed will rapidly increase due to the nose being pointed at the ground. In that case raise the nose more slowly to avoid over stressing the wings.
 
Never really had a chance to play with spins in the J3, but in a 7AC, I found it was great for demonstrating the impact of CG on the spin to a student. Enter the spin and both occupants lean forward and the nose drops noticeably. Then lean back and the nose comes up and the rotation slows. Lots of fun and a great demonstration.


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Never really had a chance to play with spins in the J3, but in a 7AC, I found it was great for demonstrating the impact of CG on the spin to a student. Enter the spin and both occupants lean forward and the nose drops noticeably. Then lean back and the nose comes up and the rotation slows. Lots of fun and a great demonstration.
Good demonstration of the effects of CG on the spin.
 
well, you were all correct of course. the first five hours of dual from the back i hated it. could not figure out sight picture. then things started to click. by the time i flew off the dual requirement for insurance and got to fly solo, i love the back. no interest in shoe horning myself up front. view from the back is spectacular. i’m fully converted. D53850B8-03C2-4D1A-A089-7B349097C03F.jpg
ps: trying all combinations of door and windows open/closed. everything open is my favorite but it does seem to reduce climb a bit.
 

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well, you were all correct of course. the first five hours of dual from the back i hated it. could not figure out sight picture. then things started to click. by the time i flew off the dual requirement for insurance and got to fly solo, i love the back. no interest in shoe horning myself up front. view from the back is spectacular. i’m fully converted. View attachment 55194
ps: trying all combinations of door and windows open/closed. everything open is my favorite but it does seem to reduce climb a bit.

They don't call it the best trainer ever for no reason, you didn't stand a chance resisting ;- )

Welcome to the club

Glenn
 
Probably my best landing ever in the J3 was in the back seat on a very dark (surely not illegally dark) evening. Just felt my way down and felt the yaw in the seat of my pants and greased it right on. Sitting behind the center of yaw and pitch really lets you feel what the plane is doing and when you don't have a lot of visual cues to lead you astray you kind of have to "use the force" so to speak and it works out pretty good.

Congrats on the plane, she looks beautiful. Glad we could convince you to give the back seat a try.
 
It’s great to fly in the back in J3 especially in the summer with door and window open. Fun to surf winds over mountain ridges in CT.
 
Most planes can fly slower in an aft CG configuration assisting with shorter landings. A standard J-3 is usually in a forward CG configuration due to the fuel. That’s the reason they are typically flown from the front seat. As fuel is used the CG moves aft. Use extreme caution if you are flying a J-3 from the front seat. If you get on the brakes you may find a very sudden stop. Usually however they go over on there backs at a very slow speed when the elevator is no longer effective.

for off airport landings I find the front seat valuable because I can continue to see obstacles in front of me. This prompts some to wheel land for better visibility. I have a thick cushion on the 18 seat in the front of my J-3 which puts me very close to the spar attachment. I wear a helmet. My J-3 has also been converted to Pa-11 configuration so all fuel is in the wings.
 
I have tried flying my J-3 from the front seat to accommodate giving a flip to someone too large for the front but, even though I also have a Cruiser and fly that from the front, it feels terribly wrong in the J-3. I love flying it from the back seat.Image1618370447.773249.jpg


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The nicest thing about flying from the back is that long moment arm from your eye to the front of the airplane. Very easy to see pitch changes. Likewise, it forces you to look out the side during landings. Depth perception is much easier when looking forward at a diagonal to the edge of the runway.
 
I love the J3, I've owned two of them. One had a C90 the one now has an 0200. Get rid of the front tank, add 12 or 18 gallon wing tanks, extend the baggage and rebuild the back seat and install a super cub seat up front. Only way to go for serious two person or backcountry flying in my opinion. Otherwise just enjoy it how it is and cruise around the patch in circles.

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