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Vee One Rotate!

B

bob turner

Registered User
A friend and fellow instructor mentioned to me that the new Garmin glass cockpits in airplanes like the 172 now have fixed "rotate" speeds on the airspeed tape.

I think his concern was that 172 pilots are now leaving pressure on the nose wheel until some speed well above flying speed and then rotating to a predetermined pitch attitude.

I am sure a 172 can be flown that way if the nosewheel is in good shape. I gather that the rotate speed is independent of weight or flap setting. Apparently the flight manual does not list a rotate speed.

I don't fly 172s any more, and have only a few hours in the apparently tricky 182, but I have a whole lot of time in very heavy taildraggers, and my impression of how to get airborne does not involve rotation.

Any chance I could elicit some opinions of pros/cons for a jet-style takeoff procedure in a small nosedragger Cessna?
 
Seems like it would be beneficial if the instructors would in stead, create a mindset to reduce load on the the nose gear as much as possible including when taxiing. I see airplanes taxiing all over grass runways and taxiways with the yoke on the dash.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk
 
A 172 owner taught me to operate nosedraggers. He did his own maintainance on the gear and there was never an ounce more load on the nose than was needed. He had me holding the nose off more than I can hold my tail off, both takeoff and landing.
 
Weasel said:
Seems like it would be beneficial if the instructors would in stead, create a mindset to reduce load on the the nose gear as much as possible including when taxiing. I see airplanes taxiing all over grass runways and taxiways with the yoke on the dash.
Click to expand...

Me too. In fact, I see a lot of nosedragger pilots fly a nice approach, only to relax back pressure as soon as the mains touch.
Plop....and another landing goes into the logbook.
FWIW
I see a lot of flat nose struts too-- a prop strike just waiting to happen if any rough ground is encountered.

​
 
I have a cub and a piper Comanche. I fly the cub by attitude(looking outside) and seat of the pants. Comanche is a more numbers especially on takeoff. Flown lots of heaver ag planes and more numbers there. Think numbers are more important on higher wing loaded aircraft. Just my 50 years experience talking.
 
My impression is that holding a single engine aircraft on the runway past the flaps up flying speed is not efficient. I see many C-180 drivers (at least those that operate on pavement) set a notch of flaps, raise the tail, accelerate to around 65, then climb at 90, flaps extended, because everybody knows the more lift you have the faster you go up.

Sarcasm.
 
They're teaching people how to push buttons. This is a big problem in foreign countries, especially Asia, China and India. Students can give the correct answer, but have no idea why. I've been interviewed many times while flying at air shows recently in China about this specific problem. Sorry about the Chinese language, but what it says - as politely as possible - is that current flight training has to be more than memorization.

http://us.xinhuanet.com/2017-11/15/c_129740701.htm?from=singlemessage&isappinstalled=0

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-11/17/c_136759573.htm?from=singlemessage&isappinstalled=0
 
Just finished this free eBook by a western pilot flying contract in China. You get a good perspective of the problems with Aviation in China.

A former Cheif Pilot of mine in the C130 flew for Air Vietnam for two years and his stories were identical. I hope our training isn’t going down the same road where blind adherence to procedures trumps skill and common sense.

I have only flown to Beijing twice so far and haven’t been impressed with their ATC system.


https://www.scribd.com/doc/273231452/Flying-Upside-Down-pdf



Sent from my iPad using SuperCub.Org
 
C130jake said:
Just finished this free eBook by a western pilot flying contract in China. You get a good perspective of the problems with Aviation in China.

A former Cheif Pilot of mine in the C130 flew for Air Vietnam for two years and his stories were identical. I hope our training isn’t going down the same road where blind adherence to procedures trumps skill and common sense.

I have only flown to Beijing twice so far and haven’t been impressed with their ATC system.


https://www.scribd.com/doc/273231452/Flying-Upside-Down-pdf



Sent from my iPad using SuperCub.Org
Click to expand...

Oh, that link is a must-read. I've been howling with laughter for the last half hour. I'm sorry, the culture clash is just too much! Hysterical!! None of this is going to end well!!
 
Along these lines, a Supercub.org member/enthusiast just got his type rating for the CJ lineup and is on the roster now.
He said :
...The class behind us lost 7 of 24 total before the FAA oral. Then another 7 at that.
All the embry riddle kids have failed out the last 3-4 classes....

They go from Aviation College to big boy training with an ego, and wash out without a job.
That's got to be embarrassing.


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
 
One morning I was shooting the ILS in Beijing and they had us side stepped off the course while they launched a turbo prop straight out at us after they turned out they turned us back on course. This took place inside ten miles or so. They gave preference to a light twin over a 767. Ever wonder why they crash so many airplanes in China?
 
bob turner said:
I see many C-180 drivers (at least those that operate on pavement) set a notch of flaps, raise the tail, accelerate to around 65, then climb at 90, flaps extended, because everybody knows the more lift you have the faster you go up.
Click to expand...

Bob, I don't fly my 180 exactly like that but maybe close. What technique do you prefer?
 
bob turner said:
A....but I have a whole lot of time in very heavy taildraggers, and my impression of how to get airborne does not involve rotation....
Click to expand...

By "very heavy taildraggers", I'm assuming something like C46, C47, etc?
The one's I've seen take off do so from a level attitude, so I assume increasing the AOA by "rotating" is involved?
I have seen people take off from the 3-point attitude.
I usually let the tail come up on it's own, then very shortly thereafter I add a little back pressure and off we go.
So while it's not very drastic, I would say that I rotate as well.
 
Bob, My first 150 hours was flying Cessna 150, 172 and T41B(Hawk XP) in a military flying club. Been too long ago so I don't remember the numbers but IMO I as taught wrong. Which was to set trim and run along the ground with nose wheel firmly on ground and rotate at a certain speed. After we got the Bird Dog I seldom flew nose wheel aircraft. I believe I was also taught to fly/take off in the Bird Dog incorrectly by forcing the tail up level and rotating.......I continued that method in the rest of my aircraft, C120, Pitts, Spezio and Starduster 2.

Then I quit flying for 23 years.... It wasn't until then that I as taught "correctly" (IMO). First my the instructor who gave me a BFR in his C150. He gave me a hard time about keeping the load off the nose wheel telling me to fly it just like I would a tail wheel aircraft which was tail low and let it fly off.....Then I started flying a friends J5A. I checked myself out and flew it like I had before UNTIL I joined this and the J3 forum and was convinced by you and others to simply get the tail up up slightly and let the airplane fly off. So that is my usual method now with another Spezio and my Acroduster 2. Except if I have a really nasty x-wind where I'll hold it tail up to a higher speed before I "rotate" and lift off.

I'd like to fly those aircraft I flew 40+ years ago to see if I do any better especially the O1D Bird Dog. Marcia and I flew it almost 75 hours w/o incident but I as never happy with my technique.

FWIW

Jack

PS Oh BTW, before I flew the Acroduster the insurance company anted me to get 2 hr. dual in a Pitts with 10 FS landings. The instructor in his S2C had me revert back to the "old" way,

Full power, stick full forward, run along level and rotate at 80 mph. Oh well....;-)
 
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I was thinking single engine. I would have loved to have flown a DC-3, but I am told that it, along with most other twins, need to stay on the ground a bit longer. By heavy, I meant C-180 through 195, Stearman, Waco, big Stinson. Never flew a Skyraider.

There are some airplanes that can become airborne before the ailerons are effective. The small Cessnas are not among them. I maintain that if you have performance issues, the best thing to do is get off the ground, accelerate in ground effect until Vx, and then climb at that speed until about 600' agl. You cannot get max performance in a single engine aircraft by holding it on the ground.

In large multi engine aircraft we do "overspeed" take offs if obstacle limited. The computations there are not quite the same as those involved in clearing the trees at the end of a short strip. The extra runway we eat up accelerating is not subtracted from the obstacle distance.

What is significant to me - here - is that not one poster has said that accelerating to a predetermined rotate speed, then pitching to a predetermined attitude, is a good technique.

Thank you for your inputs and comments. You are a valuable group.
 
txpacer said:
It's not about flying, it's about becoming an airline pilot.
Click to expand...

Exactamundo. Teach a student how to fly a wing? No, the instructor’s goal is to accumulate sufficient time to put himself/herself in the right seat of a regional jet.
 
airspeed in ground effect....not accurate so being glued to the airspeed is a bit of a waste weather your on the take off or short final for that matter....what ever happened to (in calm air) waiting for the stick to get heavy in your hand lift the nose wheel six inches and let it take off when it's ready?
 
algonquin said:
One morning I was shooting the ILS in Beijing and they had us side stepped off the course while they launched a turbo prop straight out at us after they turned out they turned us back on course. This took place inside ten miles or so. They gave preference to a light twin over a 767. Ever wonder why they crash so many airplanes in China?
Click to expand...

I got to visit the ATC center in Zhengzhou in May during the World Formation Aerobatic Contest. Every controller has a separate supervisor standing behind him at all times. They seemed very conservative, but you can never explain why they do things the way they do. My explanation is always the same... welcome to China and don;t confuse this with loogic. They did explain that right over Zhengzhou is the busiest intersection in China. They did let us fly our banners over the city center. No transponder code, No talking to anyone. Within a couple of miles of an air base. Just always monitor military frequency.

They hire airline pilots out of school, and then send them to learn to fly in the USA. Man talk about green. They don't know a prop from an elevator. I marvel at the WW2 training of 90 day wonders. My wife's uncle ended up knocking off an ammunition train in A P-47 (I think). Started from scratch- zero aviation experience, but a lifetime of aviation culture in America with movies, magazines, TV all around us.


If you fly in to PEK frequently as a passenger you can expect 2 hour delays as routine. On a number of domestic trips I've gone by high speed train instead. 195 MPH, silent, good seats and never a delay. 5 minute window to board the train or you'll watch the train leave without you.
 
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Slowmover:

I have taken the time to measure takeoff rolls in the 180. If I set the flaps to 15 and just relax the back pressure it comes off the ground in a hurry. Then you need back pressure (at least at sea level) to keep it at Vx. If you push forward on the yoke, the tail comes off the ground at almost exactly the 3-point liftoff point.

Climbing with flaps extended at Vy or above is almost always going to result in a decreased climb rate. Flaps do not make you go up faster.

They do reduce the speed at which you fly, and in the 180 and Super Cub a max performance climb is done with flaps extended and at a truly frightening deck angle. You only need to do it once, and then imagine what a powerplant failure at 200' will do to you.

We practice full power full flap climbs at altitude. The deck angles are around 45 degrees in a fully loaded Super Cub.

So to answer your question, my normal C-180 takeoff is flaps up, tail low, and climb at 60. It takes an extreme crosswind for me to raise the tail on takeoff - the kind of crosswind that requires a brake to stay straight. Scary.
 
Bob, I appreciate that reply. I'm mostly a self-taught 180 guy so all advice is appreciated.

I have not measured takeoffs but I usually perform them with two notches of flaps. I never use more than that. I maintain a tail-low attitude and let it fly off. Usually I get a chirp on the stall horn and as soon as it's off I reduce the back pressure to let it accelerate. Flaps seem to want to come out at about 70 knots which where I retract them. That also is about the first time I look at the airspeed indicator much. Then once clear of any obstacles I climb out clean at around 90.

I probably would like to fly with you sometime if I ever am in the same zip code as you!
 
Cub@H20 said:
Exactamundo. Teach a student how to fly a wing? No, the instructor’s goal is to accumulate sufficient time to put himself/herself in the right seat of a regional jet.
Click to expand...
True, the sad part is that student will become an instructor never knowing ho to fly a wing which means that we can look forward to a large group of licensed pilots with a lack of skills. There are times when even an airline pilot needs to know how to fly his wing.
 
A lot of things depend on the surface on which you are taking off from, length, wt and barriers. I like getting the tailwheel up up as soon as possible and tail up level. If you need to get airborne short start zero flaps and when you are at flying speed pull full flaps accelerate in GE and ease out the flaps to two notches and vx out. This isn't something I do unless it's really rough and short. So basically there are lots of ways to fly a 185/ 180 and they are very adaptable in the bush and hard surface operations so don't get locked into a certain way to fly a Skywagon. The tailwheel and rear stab are are easy to damage so getting them up many times is critical. Lol, it takes two days to reskin a stab. On one side I've been told.
 
"So to answer your question, my normal C-180 takeoff is flaps up, tail low, and climb at 60. It takes an extreme crosswind for me to raise the tail on takeoff "

Bob, how about a cub?
Thanks aways for your input. Happy Thanksgiving.
VT Glenn 40m
 
Full power and full flaps with any higher powered cessna is just beating the heck out of flap tracks & hardwaare.
 
Every single airplane handles differently - rigging, load, runway, density altitude, wind, etc. IMHO There is no single answer.
 
My standard J-3 or Super Cub takeoff is flaps up relax the back pressure and let it fly off. The Super Cub book says a max performance takeoff is full flaps and pointed toward the sky. That works if your engine does not miss a beat, and it is a stunning departure. I am very cautious about demonstrating it - it is not smart to put yourself in a situation where it is needed.

I am also a full flap landing kind of guy and insist on proficiency with full stall landings. If I catch a student graduating to 100% wheel landings I get grumpy. Especially in Huskys. Just me. Lots have a different opinion - as I understand it, Missionary Air teaches all wheel landings.
 
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