Retired pitcher Roy Halladay lost in ICON crash

Skywalker said:

When practicing ground reference flying the lesson is more effective at 2X tree height than 20X. I like to know what size radius I'm drawing on the ground when turning upwind and down. I like to think the knowledge will help someday. But the video shows low level aerobatic flight. Big diff, so now I'm feeling smug and safe.....

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There is a BIG difference when practicing these maneuvers over land and over water. Particularly smooth water.

Skywalker said:

When practicing ground reference flying the lesson is more effective at 2X tree height than 20X. I like to know what size radius I'm drawing on the ground when turning upwind and down. I like to think the knowledge will help someday. But the video shows low level aerobatic flight. Big diff, so now I'm feeling smug and safe.....

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"There is a BIG difference when practicing these maneuvers over land and over water. Particularly smooth water."

Point taken but I think the difference is practicing to gain competence and (as someone wrote) "Hot Dogging".

I'm saddened by all airplane crash fatalities. It doesn't matter what leads up to them.

From what I've seen of the ICON airplane? It looks friggin cool. I'd love to have one in the front yard at my gulf coast beach house. Maybe someday. Regardless, I hope ICON survives and thrives.

It's a very sad day whenever playing with our dream machines turns deadly. Thankfully no one else was injured.

Sincere condolences to his family. He will be missed.

R.I.P.

Being a bit of a low time guy, especially in seaplanes, I am trying to understand some of your comments.

First off, my condolences to friends and family, sad day.

As I watch the videos and read the 'witness' reports, the statement that creeps into my mind "what is he doing?" Non-pilots, especially guys that have not been around float planes, have zero understanding of what a 'normal' maneuver would be.

As I watch the footage of the flight, I see a plane making a turn onto a final for a low approach. The plane appears to be making steep banks, but I see a 30 degree bank and some optical illusions due to the sun making it look steeper.

Next I see a low pass over a landing area. Looking for wakes, logs, wave size and swell I would imagine; seems a great idea to look before landing.

Next I see the plane come back around, can not say that the bank is as steep as some seem to think, but for sure the sun reflection changes the appearance.

The execution of the touchdown resulted in a bad situation. Why? can be many reasons including a damaged hull prior to touchdown.

I am not so sure this guy was hotdogging, seems to me he was trying to make a landing, did a prudent fly over of the landing surface, (do you look over your landing areas prior to landing?), and made a second approach for landing. Non-pilots opinions and commentary should be ignored. Come to think of it, beginners like myself should be also.

aktango58 said:

Being a bit of a low time guy, especially in seaplanes, I am trying to understand some of your comments.

First off, my condolences to friends and family, sad day.

As I watch the videos and read the 'witness' reports, the statement that creeps into my mind "what is he doing?" Non-pilots, especially guys that have not been around float planes, have zero understanding of what a 'normal' maneuver would be.

As I watch the footage of the flight, I see a plane making a turn onto a final for a low approach. The plane appears to be making steep banks, but I see a 30 degree bank and some optical illusions due to the sun making it look steeper.

Next I see a low pass over a landing area. Looking for wakes, logs, wave size and swell I would imagine; seems a great idea to look before landing.

Next I see the plane come back around, can not say that the bank is as steep as some seem to think, but for sure the sun reflection changes the appearance.

The execution of the touchdown resulted in a bad situation. Why? can be many reasons including a damaged hull prior to touchdown.

I am not so sure this guy was hotdogging, seems to me he was trying to make a landing, did a prudent fly over of the landing surface, (do you look over your landing areas prior to landing?), and made a second approach for landing. Non-pilots opinions and commentary should be ignored. Come to think of it, beginners like myself should be also.

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Don't sell yourself short, if you have lots of time in planes and boats, you pretty much have it covered.

Here's some info on the aircraft and impressions of the training regimen at the time of the flights:

https://personalwings.com/airplane-cross-country/icon-a5-review/
http://markslavonia.com/a5/
https://www.ainonline.com/sites/default/files/pdf/ain_2017_icon_a5_1.pdf

Gary

Edit: Here's the Kathryn's Report summary and NTSB account of a previous landing by a different pilot and aircraft that resulted in a hull breach. A field of view VSI in addition to the GPS' might be nice to have:

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2017/04/icon-a5-incident-occurred-april-01-2017.html

The ICON A5 appears to have been inspired by the Osprey 2 which I have had the privilege of flying on a couple of occasions including demonstrating it at Greenville. It is a fun little flying boat. I would welcome the opportunity to try the Icon.


Flying the Osprey 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RsGTmRukyY

One good reminder resulting from this sad situation, is that what we do routinely (some of us anyway) can be construed as reckless hot dogging by the gen public. I prefer to think of low level aggressive maneuvering as "training in low level recovery from unusual attitudes", just like off airport landings being potentially useful training for a real life engine out.

Kind of like a car driver who goes out on an icy abandoned parking lot and really learns how his car handles in a skid, he's going to be a safer driver in regular winter driving then someone who is too rigid to ever even think about getting their car sideways. Someone driving by the parking lot where the guy is practicing skids would report him as reckless.

I just went through this a couple weeks ago, sort of. After my almost routine cavorting on approach and short final to my rural private mountainside strip, (having just cleared the 9K+ ridge a 1/2 mile behind my place, I had lot of altitude to burn off) I got a visit from a local sheriff deputy. Seems that a couple of off duty officers were hunting above my place, and called in a report about a plane in possible trouble. I immediately informed him that all was OK, and I do that all the time, and went on to say how it's good training etc. etc. I really believe it, and also knew I did nothing wrong, so we had a good talk about how great a place Idaho is to live in and that was that. I did watch the local news that night, thankfully "the incident" went unreported. I think this ICON crash was a simple case of depth perception, or lack thereof. Maybe just smooth enough water that day, a little glare, a little extra speed? Neat little plane, doubt it's at fault.

My experience with Gulf Coast water is it's very shallow, the water is very clear, seeing the bottom is very easy, and daytime hours rarely see glassy water. Just saying'. And in this case I haven't seen anything in any reports that indicates this was a landing accident.

In my Post #37 some of the reviews noted earlier problems and malfunctions to controls. Weeds and hull surface impingement plus a rudder dislocation for example. Any hull breach as in the previous accident would be compromising. Not suggesting any contributed to the latest accident...just read them for what their worth. Water is unforgiving.

Gary

Chip D said:

Isn't ICON the same company that lost 2 of their engineers crashing one of their planes this summer or last? Chip.

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Yes, the incident report stated the pilot mistakenly flew into a narrow, high walled canyon and was unable to escape.


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Preliminary update 11/20/17: https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20171107X60614&key=1

Gary

BC12D-4-85 said:

Preliminary update 11/20/17: https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20171107X60614&key=1

Gary

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This is a clue to the amount of damage: "The airplane came to rest in 4.5 ft of saltwater oriented on a 192° heading with the fuselage and wings inverted. The front fuselage and cockpit were highly fragmented. "

Update: http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2018/01/icon-a5-n922ba-registered-to-n529pg-llc.html

The Toxicology report is interesting but I'm not qualified to comment.

Gary