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PA-12 STC help

M

MNAKPA12

Registered User
Starting to get the paperwork ducks in a row for this winters rebuild. Been researching for a day now and haven't been able to find where to obtain the following STC's. Any help would be appreciated. I apologize in advance for the formatting, I copied from my stc spreadsheet.

Gross weight increaseSA190ALM R Borer Aircraft ServiceIncrease GW from 1750 to 1935


Install rudder centering deviceSA289ALM R Borer Aircraft ServiceRemove ventral fin and install water rudder centering springs


PA-18 flapsSA578ALRonald Sullivan and David M Hendrick PA-18 flaps on PA-12

Installation of auxilliary baggage compartment		SA149ALM R Borer Aircraft Service


The aircraft is currently on floats and already has 3 inch extended Atlee gear, 18 tail, A2B 160 horse, Firman pod and Baumann 2100 floats. The main goal is to come out of this with Pa-18 flaps, are more comfortable AC and much, much more baggage space for large, light items. As well as a few other things. :)

Thanks,
12
 
Atlee Dodge's website has great contact information, either under 'links' or FAQ's.

http://www.fadodge.com/faqs/

Borer and Dodge did the gross weight increase together so both STC's are the same.
I'd recommend Sullivan's flap STC, he's great to deal with.
The common extended baggage is Borer's. Be advised the lower baggage requires you to change out the torque tube assembly to PA-18 style (PITA), and change out the bell crank under the rear seat and add pulleys along the keel longeron; hardly worth the work for the 15 pounds it gives you IMHO.
 
MT12 said:
Atlee Dodge's website has great contact information, either under 'links' or FAQ's.

http://www.fadodge.com/faqs/

Borer and Dodge did the gross weight increase together so both STC's are the same.
I'd recommend Sullivan's flap STC, he's great to deal with.
The common extended baggage is Borer's. Be advised the lower baggage requires you to change out the torque tube assembly to PA-18 style (PITA), and change out the bell crank under the rear seat and add pulleys along the keel longeron; hardly worth the work for the 15 pounds it gives you IMHO.
Click to expand...


In my opinion, the lower baggage mod is a must. I did it during the total rebuild of the airplane, and with the fabric removed it wasn't that big of a deal. When you get rid of the bellcrank and convert to the -18 elevator control system you get a flat floor all the way from the rear control stick and about 8 ft back. You also want to turn the diagonal brace behind the original bellcrank to a dogleg---which is included in the STC.
 
Flyin S said:
In my opinion, the lower baggage mod is a must. I did it during the total rebuild of the airplane, and with the fabric removed it wasn't that big of a deal. When you get rid of the bellcrank and convert to the -18 elevator control system you get a flat floor all the way from the rear control stick and about 8 ft back. You also want to turn the diagonal brace behind the original bellcrank to a dogleg---which is included in the STC.
Click to expand...

Which stc # are you referring to???


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The flap stc is sold by Ron Sullivan but he doesn't sell parts. Just the paperwork. He also has the skylight stc which is a must.

The best place to buy flap parts is Dakota cub. You will need a flap handle assembly that goes on the 18 seat so you better buy that stc from atlee dodge.

I only buy parts from Univair when Dakota, airframes Alaska, and atlee don't have what I need. In that order.
 
MNAKPA12 said:
Install rudder centering deviceSA289ALM R Borer Aircraft ServiceRemove ventral fin and install water rudder centering springs


The aircraft is currently on floats and already has 3 inch extended Atlee gear, 18 tail, A2B 160 horse, Firman pod and Baumann 2100 floats. The main goal is to come out of this with Pa-18 flaps, a more comfortable AC and much, much more baggage space for large, light items. As well as a few other things.
Click to expand...
I strongly recommend that you do not remove the ventral fin and add springs to the water rudders. When on floats and loaded anywhere aft of the forward limit the airplane will fishtail, particularly as the turbulence builds on hot days. You will be fighting your coordination since the springs stiffen the rudder pedal movement making more work for you. You will find that you will become more fatigued while flying, fighting the rudder and ailerons trying to keep coordinated. If your back seat passenger gets queasy at all, he/she will not want to fly with you again.

The Wipline amphib floats on a PA-18 use what you have proposed. I got FAA approval to remove the springs and to add a ventral fin. The plane was much more stable and comfortable to fly.
 
Paul Heinrich said:
Have you tried Univair?
Click to expand...

I can't find anything specific towards the STC's I'm looking for. Mainly looking for the contact for the Borer STC's. I know the gentleman who originally had them had headed west and his daughter was the point of contact. But I can find any information to contact her.

Thanks,
12


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PIPER J5.5 said:
The flap stc is sold by Ron Sullivan but he doesn't sell parts. Just the paperwork. He also has the skylight stc which is a must.

The best place to buy flap parts is Dakota cub. You will need a flap handle assembly that goes on the 18 seat so you better buy that stc from atlee dodge.

I only buy parts from Univair when Dakota, airframes Alaska, and atlee don't have what I need. In that order.
Click to expand...

Roger. Thanks. Speaking of the seat. It I have the STC for the 18 seat can I piggyback off of that for the folding seat STC? Or is that more of an IA issue for them to determine if they are compatible?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
skywagon8a said:
I strongly recommend that you do not remove the ventral fin and add springs to the water rudders. When on floats and loaded anywhere aft of the forward limit the airplane will fishtail, particularly as the turbulence builds on hot days. You will be fighting your coordination since the springs stiffen the rudder pedal movement making more work for you. You will find that you will become more fatigued while flying, fighting the rudder and ailerons trying to keep coordinated. If your back seat passenger gets queasy at all, he/she will not want to fly with you again.

The Wipline amphib floats on a PA-18 use what you have proposed. I got FAA approval to remove the springs and to add a ventral fin. The plane was much more stable and comfortable to fly.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Good info. With the Baumanns we currently do not have the fin or the centering device. I don't have the STC paperwork in front of me, are we not in compliance? Or are both of those items float manufacturer specific?


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MNAKPA12 said:
Thanks. Good info. With the Baumanns we currently do not have the fin or the centering device. I don't have the STC paperwork in front of me, are we not in compliance? Or are both of those items float manufacturer specific?
Click to expand...
Those items are float specific. The fin was originally part of the Piper approval using EDO 2000 floats. The rudder springs are Wipline's method of passing the certification testing without installing the fin. Apparently Baumann was able to pass the flight tests without either. I do know that the PA-18 just marginally passed the flight test without the fin on EDO 2000. Enough so that the later -18s with the round air filter are not approved on floats by Piper. I installed the fin on my -18 clone on EDO 2000s with a noticeable improvement in handling.
 
Atlee's has the contact info for the Borer STC's, Karen Byerly (?) or something close to that. I also believe her number has been publicly disclosed on this forum, perhaps a search for her name?



MNAKPA12 said:
I can't find anything specific towards the STC's I'm looking for. Mainly looking for the contact for the Borer STC's. I know the gentleman who originally had them had headed west and his daughter was the point of contact. But I can find any information to contact her.

Thanks,
12


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
 
Float Approval Question

skywagon8a said:
Those items are float specific. The fin was originally part of the Piper approval using EDO 2000 floats. The rudder springs are Wipline's method of passing the certification testing without installing the fin. Apparently Baumann was able to pass the flight tests without either. I do know that the PA-18 just marginally passed the flight test without the fin on EDO 2000. Enough so that the later -18s with the round air filter are not approved on floats by Piper. I installed the fin on my -18 clone on EDO 2000s with a noticeable improvement in handling.
Click to expand...

I was hoping you could direct me to where you found that "later -18s with round air filter are not approved on floats by Piper." as I don't see that on the TCDS. Is it in a different document or am I missing something in the TCDS?
thanks
bubb2
 
I could have worded it better. The later -18s are approved, just not with the round air filter.

From TC 1A2
110. Paper air filter installation (Fram CA-122PL) installed in accordance with Piper Dwg. 15013. Eligible on Lycoming O-230 series engines only. Not eligible when Item 209(b) is installed.

209. Two Floats (b) Edo 89-2000 floats and water rudder in accordance with Edo Dwg. 14390 or 69470. +179 lb. (+17)For Model PA-18S "125", the powerplant must be modified in accordance with PiperDwg. 14185 (net increase in weight 8 lb. at (-62) and rudder stops filed to obtain 25° rightand 25° left rudder travel).
 
Interesting- I never noticed or had heard that- tons of round filter cubs on 2000's running around up here, and I've never seen one with a fin... It's curious that it says O-230 series- is that a typo of O-320? Or are they referencing the O-235's? I've never seen drawing 15013- Pete I assume you've verified it indeed depicts the typical round late style filter? Or am I not familiar with the style of filter you're referring to...?

P.S. I did look it up in my AD program and the tcds says o-230 there as well...
 
The original poster has a PA-12 which requires a ventral fin per the TC.
All I know is that it is mentioned in the TC. Fram CA-122PL
312WymlJf5L.jpg
And I do think that is a typo 0-230.

Here's one with a Husky fin and round filter. It's my EAB Cub and to be fair it also has squared off wing tips so I can't say for sure whether it was the wing tips or the filter which caused the need for the fin. Just that the ride is a lot less tiring with the fin.

PeteAirtoAir15Jan2014033.jpg
 
Last edited:
bf85767234cf8cb3b8b571f8aab8ee33.jpg


PA-12 w/160hp on a short mount, round filter, EDO 2000s, and no ventral. That's one fun float plane!

Crosswinds has gross weight and skylight STCs. Atlee's has the reverse dogleg, the foundation for a big, useful cargo area, and Ron Sullivan has the Cub controls ans -18 flaps STCs. Cub controls allows for the flat floor.

Sent from my iPad using SuperCub.Org mobile app
 
Last edited:
I had a PA-12-180 with the Crosswinds FWF kit, squared off tail surfaces, and extended squared off wings. On EDO 2000's it had the centering springs instead of the fin. It was a drunken sailor in any wind and took constant directional correction regardless of the weather. I'd use a ventral fin with that configuration. It even had a forward extension to the vertical tail but that was insufficient even on tires and skis to keep it from wandering around.

Gary
 
skywagon8a said:
I could have worded it better. The later -18s are approved, just not with the round air filter.

From TC 1A2
110. Paper air filter installation (Fram CA-122PL) installed in accordance with Piper Dwg. 15013. Eligible on Lycoming O-230 series engines only. Not eligible when Item 209(b) is installed.

209. Two Floats (b) Edo 89-2000 floats and water rudder in accordance with Edo Dwg. 14390 or 69470. +179 lb. (+17)For Model PA-18S "125", the powerplant must be modified in accordance with PiperDwg. 14185 (net increase in weight 8 lb. at (-62) and rudder stops filed to obtain 25° rightand 25° left rudder travel).
Click to expand...

Are you sure they aren't referring to the PAPER element?

Web
 
wireweinie said:
Are you sure they aren't referring to the PAPER element?

Web
Click to expand...
I'm saying that they are referring to the Fram CA-122PL whatever it is made out of. My take is that the increased vertical area forward of the CG is just enough to require more offsetting area at the aft end in order to pass the stability tests when on floats. The original smaller square filter has less side area.

Now, perhaps they just never did a flight test on floats with the Fram filter? It could be as simple as that. Unless I am in receipt of something to the contrary, I need to follow the TC. Since the PA-18 is marginal on directional stability when on floats by my own observation, I just assumed that the slight increase in area forward rendered it unable to pass the directional stability test. I could be all wet, it may be that it is figured that a paper filter was not safe for seaplane use? This is not stated in the TC.

I can tell you with all certainty that my Cub with the big filter and extended squared wings will not pass the directional stability requirements, until I installed the fin.
 
http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?22292-Round-air-filter-vs-flat-filter

Old news. I had heard the water saturation before but it may be just speculation.

Edit: The "I heard it before" came from long time local mechanic Ed Kieth who in the early '70's worked at Bachner's Aircraft at now-gone Philips Field (it's an expressway today). I had an early model PA-18 and asked about converting to the round element. He suggested I don't because of their experience with water on floats. I left it as built.

Gary
 
Last edited:
stewartb said:
bf85767234cf8cb3b8b571f8aab8ee33.jpg


PA-12 w/160hp on a short mount, round filter, EDO 2000s, and no ventral. That's one fun float plane!

Crosswinds has gross weight and skylight STCs. Atlee's has the reverse dogleg, the foundation for a big, useful cargo area, and Ron Sullivan has the Cub controls ans -18 flaps STCs. Cub controls allows for the flat floor.

Sent from my iPad using SuperCub.Org mobile app
Click to expand...

Nice photo Stewart!


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So far we have two speculative reasons for the round filter not being approved on floats And one admission by the FAA that it is not approved on the TC by virtue of the fact that they issued an STC to Kenmore. It would be interesting to hear the real "Official" reason that it is specifically mentioned on the TC?
 
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