ADS-B What kind of whooy are we in for ?

I check the info here often and totally enjoy this site but really have not logged in for years. Today I read the article ' Ins and ours of ADS-B' in sport Aviation April issue. It is written by a David Hughes. I have to say this is the biggest bunch of muck in have seen in a long time. I have flown 40 years, Not sure I ever want to fly with this crud in my plane. How is anyone going to be able to figure all this out. From this article it looks to be so problematic. I spent the big bucks on a Carbon cub to have less issues with all this crap. Now lets pile some more on????
Any info on where we will need this ?

Class A B C and E above 10,000' over 2500' AGL

Do you have a radio in that Carbon Cub? If so, why?

akskibum said:

Class A B C and E above 10,000' over 2500' AGL

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Don't forget, also within the 30NM mode c veil around all 37 class B airports within the US.
That's gonna be the deal killer for flying without ADS-B in the Seattle area, and probably most of the other 37 areas.
Busbart1, you should be good flying out of Scappoose -- just avoid PDX's class C.

Hmmm, avoid Seattle.....throw me in that briar patch said Brer Rabbit. ��

MTV

I have some empathy. We are at just over half of our 1977 GA flights, and a much larger percentage of GA is now turbine, and generally on an IFR flight plan. Is all this really necessary, and if so, should we expect a measurable decrease in midairs?

On the other hand, if you can wait 'till June 2020 I predict a truly inexpensive, small unit that will replace your transponder. The down-side is that they will have your name, address, and the location of your children at their fingertips, every time you fly. Expect these little boxes in your pickup around 2025.

Am I correct that the 2020 requirement can be met with a transponder that is ADS B out compliant with no other additional equipment?

I also wonder, if ground based radar is going away, how does anybody (other planes and ATC) see non ADS B equipped airplanes in areas where it's not a requirement? If that's true, then it would seem the odds of a mid air get worse.

Example: A mile west of my airport there is a Class C ring. 5 Miles east of my airport there is a Class D ring. In between I can fly my Cub without ADS B legally below 10,000 feet. Meanwhile there are corporate jets and commercial airliners going into both of those airports on a regular basis. You can bet they are a lot lower than 10,000 feet in that area.

I guess i dont understand the whole implementation. What am I missing?

Rich

bob turner said:

... Expect these little boxes in your pickup around 2025....

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To late. Already in there.

Web

wireweinie said:

To late. Already in there.

Web

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That's just one of the reasons why I still drive an 85 4Runner.

The biggest one is that it's cheap and paid off, and doesn't take away from my flying budget!

Richgj3 said:

Am I correct that the 2020 requirement can be met with a transponder that is ADS B out compliant with no other additional equipment?

I also wonder, if ground based radar is going away, how does anybody (other planes and ATC) see non ADS B equipped airplanes in areas where it's not a requirement? If that's true, then it would seem the odds of a mid air get worse.

Example: A mile west of my airport there is a Class C ring. 5 Miles east of my airport there is a Class D ring. In between I can fly my Cub without ADS B legally below 10,000 feet. Meanwhile there are corporate jets and commercial airliners going into both of those airports on a regular basis. You can bet they are a lot lower than 10,000 feet in that area.

I guess i dont understand the whole implementation. What am I missing?

Rich

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The same way non transponder equipped aircraft are seen now. They are not seen by any system. Controllers usually suspress primaries.

Not out here, they don't. They track us, and seek altitude info. As far as I can tell, none of us has had any problems. However, there are an average of three violations a day with transponder-equipped airplanes wandering into B.

bob turner said:

Not out here, they don't. They track us, and seek altitude info. As far as I can tell, none of us has had any problems. However, there are an average of three violations a day with transponder-equipped airplanes wandering into B.

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Why are you answering?

wireweinie said:

To late. Already in there.

Web

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This is a nonairplane answer that I would like more information about. Do you have any links to back this up or to inform? I don't doubt you as I have heard about little black boxes in motor vehicles, just no details.

My 2017 Audi owner manual says there is an event recorder that saves the last 30 seconds of data when the air bags deploy. They say they won't give the data to law enforcement "unless they request it ".

Rich

My experience with ADS-B is all positive. And I live in Class G airspace.

bob turner said:

I have some empathy. We are at just over half of our 1977 GA flights, and a much larger percentage of GA is now turbine, and generally on an IFR flight plan. Is all this really necessary, and if so, should we expect a measurable decrease in midairs?

On the other hand, if you can wait 'till June 2020 I predict a truly inexpensive, small unit that will replace your transponder. The down-side is that they will have your name, address, and the location of your children at their fingertips, every time you fly. Expect these little boxes in your pickup around 2025.

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If you have a Mode S transponder, they've already got everything ADS-B provides, because there is an ICAO code assigned to your airplane that links to your registration document. I don't think they need ADS-B for 'surveillance'...

(Edited to correct from "If you already have a Mode C transponder" to read "Mode S" after several people pointed out my error. Sorry!)

spinner2 said:

My experience with ADS-B is all positive. And I live in Class G airspace.

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i love my ADS-B in/out with ForeFlight. It's not the end-all buts it's really valuable info in the cockpit, especially in congested airspace where it's required. A long way from whooy. Been flying it since last August. I would suggest flying with it for enough time to making a rational decision before dissing it. I see people pissing away money on Cubs on a bunch more expensive things that don't really add much value to safety and making flying the plane better.

ADS-B Out is all that's required and is pretty straight forward, and that is only required if you fly in the airspace previously listed. A lot of the confusion is coming from all the options we have here in the US. In most of the rest of the world, you still must comply with ADS-B out to fly in certain airspace, but only by use of a Mode-S transponder with a WAAS III GPS feed. That's cut and dried. No other options. In return for equipping, you get nothing. No TIS-B. No FIS-B. No NexRad Radar. Nothing.

In the US, we have the option of keeping our Mode-C transponders and using UAT-Out on 978 MHZ as an alternative. It should be a less expensive option, although that's not always the case. Additionally, whether you have ADS-B Out or not, you get FIS-B weather and NexRad radar being broadcast from the ADS-B towers. As an enticement to equip, you also get TIS-B traffic that can be displayed in your cockpit.

I equipped one plane with the fully compliant ADS-B in and out 3 years ago. Even though I fly in an area with sparse coverage, I am often time surprised by how much traffic is out there. The best part is that you are alerted to traffic so you know where to look to find them, or can deconflict long before there is an issue. I have not equipped the SC clone with ADS-B out or TIS-B traffic yet. It would be nice to have the traffic information on board, but the majority of the time, I am not flying at altitudes where traffic conflicts happen much, so I mostly only have to deal with traffic close in around the airport. Eventually, I will equip it as well, but will likely wait until closer to the 2020 deadline.

As many have stated before, it's not cheap. It's a bloated overspent program. But it's also a reality we have to deal with and there are some nice advantages to being equipped here in the US.

-Cub Builder

Flying home in low weather. Still in uncontrolled airspace so 1 mile is legal. Staying low to get that mile. The ground view is reduced from normal so I don't know where I am relative to that radio tower that I know is out here. What do I do? Look at the obstacles feature on the GPS. It shows me where that tower is. ADS-B adds other airplanes to that screen, too. Now I can avoid what I knew was there AND what I didn't know was there. That information allows me to pay more attention to flying the plane. What's not to like?

Another example. You're told to hold outside of controlled airspace awaiting entry for a special vfr arrival. You have company as a few other planes are also out there maneuvering, waiting to be called inbound. All those transponders will show up on ADS-B so you know where they are even when you can't see them. It isn't perfect but it's better than what we had before, which is nothing.

JimParker256 said:

If you have a Mode C transponder, they've already got everything ADS-B provides, because there is an ICAO code assigned to your airplane that links to your registration document. I don't think they need ADS-B for 'surveillance'...

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I disagree. Maybe Mode S ?

stewartb said:

Another example. You're told to hold outside of controlled airspace awaiting entry for a special vfr arrival. You have company as a few other planes are also out there maneuvering, waiting to be called inbound. All those transponders will show up on ADS-B so you know where they are even when you can't see them. It isn't perfect but it's better than what we had before, which is nothing.

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Isn't the tower already doing that for you?

Glenn

No.

stewartb said:

Flying home in low weather. Still in uncontrolled airspace so 1 mile is legal. Staying low to get that mile. The ground view is reduced from normal so I don't know where I am relative to that radio tower that I know is out here. What do I do? Look at the obstacles feature on the GPS. It shows me where that tower is. ADS-B adds other airplanes to that screen, too. Now I can avoid what I knew was there AND what I didn't know was there. That information allows me to pay more attention to flying the plane. What's not to like?

Another example. You're told to hold outside of controlled airspace awaiting entry for a special vfr arrival. You have company as a few other planes are also out there maneuvering, waiting to be called inbound. All those transponders will show up on ADS-B so you know where they are even when you can't see them. It isn't perfect but it's better than what we had before, which is nothing.

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Stewart,

I don't think that's necessarily a given. It depends on whether you are in contact with a GBT or not. No GBT signal, you may not see all the transponders. Lots of places around here with no coverage when you're low.

MTV

My post is a pirep. Yours? What kind of equipment are you using? There's the thing. In these discussions the guys who use ADS-B are generally positive and like what it offers. The guys that argue against it almost never have any experience with it, they just repeat the same old rhetoric that's always used. Eyes inside the cockpit, sketchy coverage, too expensive.... I use very basic ADS-B in services on my iPad in the Cessna and it's impressive. My new Cub has the full in and out package as a result. My pirep, my opinion, my reasons. That's all I've got.

stewartb said:

My post is a pirep. Yours? What kind of equipment are you using? There's the thing. In these discussions the guys who use ADS-B are generally positive and like what it offers. The guys that argue against it almost never have any experience with it, they just repeat the same old rhetoric that's always used. Eyes inside the cockpit, sketchy coverage, too expensive.... I use very basic ADS-B in services on my iPad in the Cessna and it's impressive. My new Cub has the full in and out package as a result. My pirep, my opinion, my reasons. That's all I've got.

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Agree with you 100%. Just don't force me to do the same

Glenn

JimParker256 said:

If you have a Mode C transponder, they've already got everything ADS-B provides, because there is an ICAO code assigned to your airplane that links to your registration document. ..

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Not true. That is Mode S.

mvivion said:

Stewart,

I don't think that's necessarily a given. It depends on whether you are in contact with a GBT or not. No GBT signal, you may not see all the transponders. Lots of places around here with no coverage when you're low.

MTV

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You will see an OUT if you have an IN, via direct communication. Non OUTS only appear through rebroadcast from a ground station. As I understand it.

hotrod180 said:

I disagree. Maybe Mode S ?

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Eddie Foy said:

Not true. That is Mode S.

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You're both correct, and I was mistaken. My confusion stems from the fact that my previous airplane was Mode-S equipped and had the ICAO code assigned, and when I look at the registration online for my current airplane (which has a Mode C transponder), I noted that it also has that ICAO code assigned -- I just failed to notice that the label for that field is "Mode S Code"... Sorry for the bad info. I'll edit the original post (if I can) to indicate the info was wrong.

Thanks for the "fact check"...

mvivion said:

Stewart,

I don't think that's necessarily a given. It depends on whether you are in contact with a GBT or not. No GBT signal, you may not see all the transponders. Lots of places around here with no coverage when you're low.

MTV

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As I found out in my non-ADS-B "Out" Cub, but with a GDL39 as the "In" source, I can see an ADS-B Out transponder if it is line-of-sight from me. I do not have to be within range of an ADS-B tower. Garmin calls this Air-to-Air.

In my Cessna, which is ADS-B Out equipped, and if I'm in range of an ADS-B tower, I can also see ordinary Mode C traffic through a re-broadcast of radar traffic, ADS-B Out traffic that isn't necessarily line-of-sight and that same line-of-sight traffic I could see in the Cub. I am using the same GDL 39 for In in the Cessna.

In the non-Out Cub I can also see the same traffic as I would in the Cessna if the ADS-B tower is sending a signal to an Out plane that is relatively close to me.

I like the system. No complaints from me.

stewartb said:

My post is a pirep. Yours? What kind of equipment are you using? There's the thing. In these discussions the guys who use ADS-B are generally positive and like what it offers. The guys that argue against it almost never have any experience with it, they just repeat the same old rhetoric that's always used. Eyes inside the cockpit, sketchy coverage, too expensive.... I use very basic ADS-B in services on my iPad in the Cessna and it's impressive. My new Cub has the full in and out package as a result. My pirep, my opinion, my reasons. That's all I've got.

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Pirep, Schmirep Stewart. Study up on the capabilities and functionality of the system. My point was simply that without contact with a GBT, you MAY not see all the transponder equipped aircraft as traffic, as your previous post stated.

Im glad you're happy with the system. I have tried it with ADS-B in, via a Stratus 1S, and in this part of the world, it's utility is limited at best. I've flown with it in the Midwest, and it works much better. I no longer live there, however. And the radar images transmitted by ADS-B are very poor compared to XM Weather images. So, where I fly these days, I'll keep looking out the window for traffic.

So, there's my pirep.

MTV