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Stewart System Paint

Regarding waterborne specific paint guns I think it may just be a sales pitch by manufactures. I use a SATA 3000B digital ($550) paint gun, Dan Stewart uses an IWATA LPH400 ($500) and we both have used the DeVilbiss Finish line III ($140) None of these guns are "waterborne" guns. I called IWATA to talk with their engineers about their new top of the line paint gun the "Supernova" which is available as a base coat or clear coat gun and also available in a LVLP or normal HVLP. They recommend their clear coat gun for shooting our single stage top coat paint. The LVLP gun will work on 19 psi and 10 cfm. I was told the Japanese had the best LVLP guns and IWATA is probably the leader of Japanese paint guns. I know people are on a budget but seriously the only thing other people are going to see is your paint job. Why skimp on the equipment used. It's a fact that the SATA and IWATA guns do a better job of atomizing paint and they have a larger fan width which really helps production time. If you spend $500+ dollars on a gun I'm not going to promise it will lay down a perfect paint job. Technique is mostly what affects the finish not the gun but a great gun sure helps. You can sell a top of the line paint gun when you're done with the project for almost as much as you paid for it. A less expensive gun has almost no resell value. It is also important to have clean dry air and hoses for painting. Only use 3/8" rubber hoses and the only quick disconnect should be a special high flow fitting between the gun and air hose. Waterborne paints are all about being able to atomize the paint into the smallest droplets possible. If you hold the gun to close you can blow excess air into the paint film which can cause pinholes, if you hold it back to far the paint will loose some of it's atomization and fall to the surface in larger droplets creating a dry or orange peel affect. What I'm trying to say is PRACTICE!! and not on airplane parts. Practice on stuff you can throw away

The paint is not hard to use and once you understand the parameters it's extremely forgiving and you can get away with stuff that would totally ruin a solvent based paint job. If you research online about auto body shops switching to waterborne paint they all had to go through a leaning curve but once the figured out what they were doing wrong they absolutely love shooting waterborne paint. Waterborne is the Future of painting and I have spoken to many professionals that have no desire to return to solvent based products.

For the thousands of gallons of paint we sell it is surprising how FEW problems our customers have spraying it and 99% of those problems are equipment or technique related.

Jason
 
I bet if we could go back in time Ray Stits caught all kinds of grief from the dope guys when he came out with his system.
 
I bet if we could go back in time Ray Stits caught all kinds of grief from the dope guys when he came out with his system.

Steve, I thought of that too. I think you are spot on. It will be interesting to see if and when Poly Fiber releases their version of waterborne.

I think Jason is right that the future of painting is in the waterborne...just strictly based on the EPA aspect. With Poly Fiber being based in CA and with this state's strict EPA standards, sometime I wonder how they do it. Only time will tell, I guess.

Sorry about the thread creep...
 
my main thing I adjust paint by (not this stuff, no exp yet) is when things are going great, STOP and go over to your test paper hanging on wall and shot a couple 3 or 4" long stripes, and look at the edges in the paint dots for the size of the atomized dots, THAT is what you are trying to duplicate each time... paint viscosity and guns will change as you use them, but if the dots are the right small size you will never have runs, sags or such(unless you try hard)
 
Well, I started this thread and since then I have painted approx 3/4 of my ext of my Murphy Rebel. I have no real prior experience painting and have found the paint to be easy to work with IF you follow the instructions to the letter. I have gotten some slight orange peel a few times and each time it was due to not putting enough paint on. Being afraid of a run has made me apply too little paint and each time I sanded and then repainted and it looked great! My compressor is rated a few CFM's less than what Stewart calls for and I guess it hasn't been a problem. One thing I really like is going to my sink and cleaning the gun with warm water! I also like the lack of dangerous fumes although it does have its own odor that isn't so great. Craig www.alaskanrebel.com
 
I would recommend leaving the painted parts outside in the weather just so that you can be sure that the paint actually set correctly. I am sure it probably will for you because you have followed the instructions to the letter. It seems as though many people on this thread have run into some minor issues with water intrusion but caught it early enough for it not to turn into a major problem. Our parts for my fathers cherokee looked great inside but once we put the plane together a few months after we had painted and put it outside that is when we ran into trouble. I just don't want to see anyone else go through all of the efforts of painting and then run into problems after you had thought you did it correctly.
 
I don't believe you have a water intrusion problem. I believe you have water trapped under the cured polyurethane. Once the catalyzed polyurethane is cured water is not going to penetrate it and this will take place in a day or two.
 
Well I don't really care what you believe I was just giving him a recommendation because if he has any problems with the paint laying down correctly it would be better to find it now than after he has the plane together. That is all. I wasn't saying anything else Steve just based on my experience with the product I would have liked to have found the problems prior to putting the plane back together so I could have repainted it.
 
Well I don't really care what you believe I was just giving him a recommendation because if he has any problems with the paint laying down correctly it would be better to find it now than after he has the plane together. That is all. I wasn't saying anything else Steve just based on my experience with the product I would have liked to have found the problems prior to putting the plane back together so I could have repainted it.

I understand your frustration. Just wanted to clarify that water is not seeping under your paint from the atmosphere and bubbling it up. Sorry you had problems. We have all been in similar situations. It isn't fun but we usually learn something from them.
 
Just got done putting the Fabric on my exp project...love it when it starts to look like a plane...Eco fill today...

Wondering if there is a shelf life on the glue...I am sure there is...started with an older bottle...could not get it to grab very well on metal...would pull away when I started to shrink...tossed the older glue, opened a new quart...seemed to work better...

Great stuff...Hopefully painting on Sunday...have to go to Anchorage to pick up the family from their spring break in the sun...
 
I found that I have troubles with the glue when I get in too big a hurry. If I put it on the metal in moderate thickness AND let it dry, it worked real well. But if I tried to put it on too thick and didn't let it dry enough, it just wouldn't stick - it just lifted off the metal and contributed to a not-so-nice vocabulary. I think for me, the biggest part of the learning curve is learning to wait long enough. I think that's because we're used to solvent evaporating relatively quickly, but the water takes somewhat longer to dry. Just my (limited) experience - -
 
Ideally you want to wrap the fabric around an edge, or tube and the glue should be on opposite side. That way the glue is in shear and not tension. Also make sure it is dry like a post-it note.
 
:rant: Aeronca65CA,
For a fellow on this website for what 2 weeks you are real gem. We know you are ticked off and frustrated but to a fellow that has not contributed an iota of useful information like yourself I can only hope SJ mails you back your money and you go over to back country pilots before your attitude prevents folks like Pierce and MCS Mike from posting cause its not worth dealing with flak from raving lunatics. Steve Noyes was a gentleman and shared information with us to help provide clues to a solution to a potential problem. Now I as one would like to know how to prevent it on my rebuild.

Steve Pierce since you have probably the path to the problem will you expound on what you mean by the polyurethane trapping water. I assume since most folks having issues with the process are the most experienced with painting then it comes down to too much product being waterborne trapping water under the paint. Am I on the right track?
I saw one post where the fellow is real happy with the product and he mentioned orange peel. I understand that to be air delivery issues and air volume causing inadequate atomization of the paint.

A65 if you stopped being so mad maybe you could help and we could help you.
John
 
If you are in a hurry for the bed layer of glue to flash off so you can start attaching the fabric I would hit it with a hair dryer or heat gun on low. It's noticeably slower to tack up when below about 45 deg or in cool temp and high humidity. I try to keep the shop above 50 when doing fabric work and above 60 when painting.

Jason
 
Progress...White on today...

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Still not sure on the color scheme...Wings are Red on Top, Black leading edges....white on bottom...Any original ideas?
Ron
 

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Sorry it took me so long to join on the Stewarts Cherokee paint problems. Ihave spoken to both Dan and Jason about the problems. I followed the instructions as close as possible. Today I went to the airport to work on the plane [Sooner or later it will fly again} I think I have two diffent problems. On the tail {where the large blister was} the paint has seperated from the primer. On the left wing root it appears that the upper layer of top coat has lifted. The rest of the at this point anyway seems to bonding ok. A question I have is why does it seem that only the upper surfaces are lifting? I used a rotator when I painted. Overall I found the Stewarts process fairly easy to use. I wish that when they have changes with the procedure that they would send an e-mail to everyone[ ie new tack rags and a few other changes] since I started this project almost 3 years. thanks for time Don Tewksbury
 
The only place I have any kind of a lifting issue is right where I was afraid it would be. Before I closed my wings I used Corrosion X on the inside. After the wings were up on the wall while I was building the fuselage I started noticing that it was dripping out. Long story short, do not use C X on your plane anywhere you expect to paint. I only have a 2" x 1/4" area where the leading edge joins the wing. Hopefully I won't see any other ones! I took some precautions given me by the Corrsion X folks and Dan at Stewarts. We'll see. CW
 
thread fork!!!! (we really need an emoticon for this)

so this thread helped answer something with regular solvents based polyurethanes I had noticed...

when people over accelerate a paint the adhesion is poorer..

I bet this is the same issue, that the paint is hardening/curing on top of the carrier before the carrier evaporates.....

I always explained it as not giving the paint time enough to get into the pours/sanding scratches before hardening, but now I doubt it.........

I bet this is the same type deal????
 
ive been up north ski flying for the weekend, so ive been absent, the only thing i have a hard time understanding is if the water (thats the reducing agent) is whats trapped, how come the blisters only develope once they get rained on? remember, the topcoat is almost a year old prior to having been put outside in the weather. i really love the concept of this system, the glue and eco fill are great, and as previously mentioned, i love washing my gun in warm water at the sink, i need to find an answer before i continue though.

p.s. does anyone know of any AWB-2500's for sale?

talk soon
steve noyes
9788360361
 
Ok guys, I have been avoiding responding to this thread because I have no experience with the water-born paint systems. However, I will offer some food for thought simply because I wonder if it has any bearing. I have considerable experience with Aerothane, Randthane, and Superflite paints. I can tell you that under the right conditions (humidity,temp, or what,I don't know), you can't keep a floor wet painting the solvent-based urethanes; they will absorb water as fast as you can put it down. If the paints you folks are talking about do that, how can you not have a lot of water contained in the paint as it attempts to dry? I don't know if it means anything or just continues to add unanswered questions to the problem. I look forward as most of you do to good answers because I would like to try some myself; but not yet. Reid
 
Dave,
How do you paint one side of something and not get lots of overspray on it when doing the other side. I saw them do that on the Superflite video and still haven't figured that out.
 
Rolling Stewart Systems.

My apologies for the thread creep, but since this thread now seems to have everyone's attention I have a question.

Has anyone here tried rolling SS top coat? Doug Stewart says it can be done, but he hasn't done it himself and can't really offer much advice. He says some of his customers roll on the ecopoly and get really good results.

I kinda got the impression that it worked best in humid climates, he might have mentioned Missouri; that sounds a lot like the sort of climate we have here in Auckland.

Any comments would be appreciated.

I'm still at a bit of a loss at what causes the bubbling. Mike MCS and Steve P. keep coming up with hypotheses but nothing concrete seems to be floating to the top.

I've found this thread very informative. I'll lap up anything new!

Cheers,
Andrew.
 
Andrew,
I had to do the interior fabric of a completed Vagabond and decided to roll the SS topcoats.
I used a 4 in sponge roller and it came out great. I used the same mixing instructions as spraying.
There are some pictures under the Steve's Skylight thread at www.Shortwingpipers.org
Dave
 
no idea with water borne....

with solvents based,.... don't over accelerate, and/or don't over thin(carrier)...??????

The same holds true with Stewarts.... as well as don't try to put too much on at each coat! That's the biggest problem I have seen with people using it...and I'm right in there too....you can't hurry this stuff by putting on a heavier coat or playing with the mixture! Those directions are there for a reason...trust me, I know.

140 Driver, the reason that I'd say it wasn't the paint's fault, is that if it was, then the whole area that was painted should be affected, not just a few small areas. Like Snowyriver said in the very next post, he knew he was going to have a problem there.... it only takes a little bit of contamination to show sometimes....such as a bare hand touching the surface, too much pressure when tack-ragging (I've seen that a bunch of times!), someone's sleeve brushing the surface, etc..... it can happen.

As far as rolling it on, Dick Starks (of the Kansas City Dawn Patrol fame) used to have info on that on their website, and did an article that appeared in Kitplanes (if I remember correctly). He rolled it on his Taube and was very happy with the finish. I've seen a few samples of it being done, and I'd have sworn that they were sprayed! The only limitations I could see were around irregular areas (gear wells or something like, for example) where spraying should give easier coverage.
 
The Stewart manual I have gives the procedure for rolling on the finish coat.
How do you paint one side of something and not get lots of overspray on it when doing the other side. I saw them do that on the Superflite video and still haven't figured that out.
Best way I know ho is to paint a leading edge stripe. I have seen people tape a line on top at the leading edge of the wing as well. Hard to see since it is a high wing.

As far as the bubbling etc. It appears to me that the atmospheric changes are affecting the top coat from underneath. I wonder if the bottom would do the same thing if it were flipped over. I speculate the finish was put on too thick or not enough time between coats and the moisture from the air and paint is entrapped. Moisture will attach itself to the paint as it leaves the gun and make the problem worse. Kinda thinking out loud here.
 
Here are some websites with good info on the most common paint defects. It took about 5 minutes of googling to get these references. I think they cover a lot of important information that most guys never think about.

http://www.sherwin-automotive.com/~...les/Reference/Trouble Shooting Guide/tsg.ashx

http://learnautopainting.com/auto-paint-repair/

http://pc.dupont.com/dpc/en/US/html/visitor/s/trouble/PDSG_Home.html

http://www.glasurit.com/en_UK/Service/AdviceOnPaintDefects/index.xml

I had a thought the other day that I wanted to share... why does nobody complain about how long it takes them to learn how to be a good welder but if the paint job goes south on the first or second attempt its the end of the world? I know I'm absolutly guity of feeling that way sometimes. And just to let everyone know I still have problems painting from time to time. And it's always because of something I did wrong.

All paint systems are subject to issues of contamination, poor prep, and application error. The information shared on this thread is universal and I'm more than happy to do the best I can through emails and open discussions on threads like this. SC.org is lucky to have such a talented and experienced group of contributing member responding to this thread on painting.
Diagnosing finish defects over the phone and through email is extremely difficult to do. The combined experience of those contributing here has helped to identify the most likely cause of these two different types of finish defects. Don's Cherokee has adhesion problems in localized areas and Steve's fabric aircraft parts have blisters in localized areas. The fact that they are different types of finish defects and are they occurred in localized areas and not the entire surface along with the fact that other customers using paint from the same batch did not have any problems is a real strong case for ruling out a problem with the product. If we concentrate on what factors contribute to blistering and loss of adhesion and the fact that both of these issues developed only after being exposed to 100% humidity and rain I believe we can formulate a theory of what combination of prep and application techniques contributed to the paint issues. Lets start with the blistering on Steves parts first. If everyone can use the links I included above for reference information or find more info on the web in regards to blistering I would like to hear some opinions. Steve and I have been communicating through email and have gone over many of the details in regards to his tools, setup, technique, and work environment so I it seems to me with the information that I have at this time his paint most likely was applied too soon between coats and sprayed on a little heavy - AND/OR - the environment he was painting in cured the surface of each coat to fast trapping moisture.

It's real busy here at Stewart Systems today so I'll add more as I can later.

Jason
 
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When Painting the parts flat and one side at a time you have to think about the angle that your spray fan shoots across the surface. The first side you need to hold your gun slightly below the edge and shoot up at a slight angle so that there is a slight amount of over spray landing on the lower surface as you go around the edge of the part. Always go around the edge before painting the flat surface. The next day when you are ready to paint the other side of the part you are going to already have a few inches of paint past the edge and out into the open bay so now when you hold the gun and paint the second side you need to keep the gun above the surface and angle the fan so that the overspray goes past the edge and does not land on the side that you painted the day before. With waterborne paint you will not have a dry fog line at the overlap intersection around the perimeter. If you get over spray on the first side you'll have to let it cure and buff it out weeks later.

You can roll it but I have no experience doing that either. It's going to be trial and error and you should practice different techniques before going after real airplane parts. We can point you in the right direction and describe what you should be looking for when rolling but you're going to have to practice and experiment.

Jason
 
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