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Thread: Taxiway Blocked?

  1. #1

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    Taxiway Blocked?

    Drives me nuts, seeing these instructors with ten page after start checklists. One in my alley takes ten minutes. Includes a VOR check.

    We have a new flight school parked along a taxiway serving about 75 hangars. The school pulls their aircraft out to the taxiway centerline, mills around smartly, etc. I personally go around them, using an alley that serves a pair of maintenance hangars.

    Today two things happened. First, I returned from my daily landings to find all alleys to my hangar blocked. I did fine, between a fuel truck and a mechanic’s pickup. I had a foot either side, and wing walkers. My buddy in the other Cub got his picture taken going around the blocked area using an empty tie down spot and the maintenance alley.

    I had already alerted management to the potential for serious tie-ups - picture a pair of Bonanzas getting into a traffic jam! But I told them we were working on an equitable solution.

    Then the owner of the flight school showed up, miffed that we were going around his airplanes. He said the area we were using was “unauthorized.” That, of course, is news to me - I just taxi so I don’t hit anything, and if that means across an empty tie down, what’s the big deal?

    But I am sure the other shoe will drop tomorrow. I will let you know. Is it possible that Cubs will now have to follow orange center lines? I bet they are just jealous!

  2. #2

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    Some things I miss about being at “real” airport but deffinately not the taxi-way Bogarts. If I had stayed, I would have had to install air-horns on both planes.
    Last edited by OLDCROWE; 04-16-2019 at 09:29 AM.
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  3. #3
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Glad I live off the beaten path. I taxi straight out of my hanger, across a taxiway into the grass, across another taxiway and into the grass my son mows along the runway that we use as a landing area. It was brought up as an issue years ago but luckily one of the powers that be saw no issue with it and convinced the mamby pambies there wasn't one.
    Steve Pierce

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    SJ's Avatar
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    Bob, I believe that long checklists with the engine running were developed by a guy trying to build time....

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
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  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
    Bob, I believe that long checklists with the engine running were developed by a guy trying to build time....

    sj
    Ya, for the owner of the Hobbs meter...
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

  6. #6
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    There were some students at a local airport with the airplanes tied down outside with the engines running while they were in the lobby logging time.
    Steve Pierce

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    txpacer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    There were some students at a local airport with the airplanes tied down outside with the engines running while they were in the lobby logging time.
    What a waste. Just sitting inside while all that flying is being paid for. It shows where their priorities lie.

  8. #8

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    Not related, of course, but we have instructors who insist on blocking the runway, switching to tower, and "holding short, requesting takeoff". Then they go around the pattern once, with two mile upwinds and finals, to a full stop. The hapless student learns little of use - maybe intro to cross country?

    These same instructors will ask for a short approach. That reduces their final to one mile.

    I will contribute again this evening after airport management forbids us from taxiing across an empty tie down spot. I will of course ask if I can stop on the spot, then proceed. Answer should be interesting.

    They make this stuff up as they go along.
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  9. #9
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Can't wait for the rest of the story. Give 'em hell, Bob!
    Gordon

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    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    There were some students at a local airport with the airplanes tied down outside with the engines running while they were in the lobby logging time.
    We used to joke that you didn't get credit for combat pay while playing 'Call of Duty'. Looks like these guys figured a way around that idea!

    Web
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  11. #11
    CubCruiser's Avatar
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    These are quite effective distractors during long, flight school checklists:
    :Click image for larger version. 

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    Daryl Hickman, CFI
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    N161LC American Super Legend Amphibian
    http://www.CubFlying.com
    http://www.KidsFlyCubs.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    Then the owner of the flight school showed up, miffed that we were going around his airplanes. He said the area we were using was “unauthorized.”
    This is just a typical bully's "appeal to nonexistent authority" argument. In his mind, he's the big shot who authorizes everything. Your response needs to be "What "authority" regulates access to the tie down area at this airport and and what written rules are you referring to?" followed by "Where do I submit the bill for the avgas I am burning while your students are obstructing the normal flow of traffic to and from the hangar I am paying the airport rent for?" As you are walking away, remind him that the flight school can hold up your one plane, but your one plane can easily hold up an entire flight school on a VFR Saturday.
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  13. #13
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    I got myself into an argument with a lower 48 CFI the other day over this. I noted how many flight schools and /or CFIs were padding the log books with slow cross country taxi's and what should be ground instruction taking place in the cockpit with the motor idling.

    I do all my radio stuff with students ( whom I call clients) before engine start.
    And I charge flight time. Not goof-off time.

    Needless to say, my opinions and methods were not very popular over on the CFI blog site with all the 12 year old CFIs fresh out of school.
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  14. #14

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    Step 2. Offered the flight school a suggestion - start engine, taxi to spot A or B, then buckle up and run the checklist. He instantly got defensive, then belligerent. Had friendly discussions with apron lessees. We are working on it.

    The funny thing - if the complainer were not blocking the taxiway we wouldn't have to go around him. And why on earth does he care if we don't hit his airplanes? More tomorrow, probably.
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  15. #15
    SJ's Avatar
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    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------
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  16. #16
    btracy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by txpacer View Post
    What a waste. Just sitting inside while all that flying is being paid for. It shows where their priorities lie.
    It wasn't a total waste The instructor went to the Hard 8 for an hour and had lunch while the student was building time on the ramp
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  17. #17
    charlie husky's Avatar
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    Often, the simplest answer is the best resolution. A taxiway between hangars is for orderly movement of aircraft. Blocking the taxiway is counterproductive to orderly movement. If they cannot startup and taxi almost immediately, then they need to tug the aircraft to a tie down spot, or other ramp area not blocking aircraft movement on taxiways. Courtesy, Etiquette, versus being a dickwad. Airport management should support orderly movement versus blocking taxi lanes. Does he really want to play the dickwad game? Other leasees like you, might play with a capital “D”.
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  18. #18
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Bob, bring some of the boys from the South Bay / Logan Heights regions for your next discussion. You know, the fellows with the dark-tinted-window Acuras, and such. Offer to give 'em all plane rides, then they'll see first-hand the obstruction and can initiate a conversation. Ha!!
    Last edited by Gordon Misch; 04-16-2019 at 07:55 PM.
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  19. #19

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    What airport, Bob?
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  20. #20
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    Step 2. Offered the flight school a suggestion - start engine, taxi to spot A or B, then buckle up and run the checklist. He instantly got defensive, then belligerent.
    How about buckling up first - then start engine--etc--------!
    N1PA
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    How about buckling up first - then start engine--etc--------!
    That's what I was taught from my first lesson. But my current CFI suggests not to buckle-up until after engine start as fire is most likely after start and egress would be easier. I do what he wants for my BFR but confess I buckle-up first otherwise.......

    That said, I was safety officer in a military flying club with a large fleet of C150's and we did have several losses from induction fires probably because of pumping throttle instead of using primer. I chalked it up to poor training. Two total losses over about 10 years/students were buckled-up and still managed egress. Several other fires with less damage. Majority were students of one CFI.

    Oh well,

    Jack

    PS. I buckle-up
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  22. #22
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by txpacer View Post
    What a waste. Just sitting inside while all that flying is being paid for. It shows where their priorities lie.
    Maybe all their LZs were under water that day.
    Steve Pierce

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    Will Rogers

  23. #23
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Bob, you need to move to Graham, TX. We will get your airplanes in a hanger, we have two grass landing areas and no flight school to get in the way just an occasional student from the Dallas/Ft. Worth metro mess.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  24. #24
    WhiskeyMike's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=n40ff;745441]That's what I was taught from my first lesson. But my current CFI suggests not to buckle-up until after engine start as fire is most likely after start and egress would be easier. I do what he wants for my BFR but confess I buckle-up first otherwise.......

    That said, I was safety officer in a military flying club with a large fleet of C150's and we did have several losses from induction fires probably because of pumping throttle instead of using primer. I chalked it up to poor training. Two total losses over about 10 years/students were buckled-up and still managed egress. Several other fires with less damage. Majority were students of one CFI.

    A friend of mine taxiied his 172 to the fuel pumps before being buckled up and fell out. It takes one nano second to unbuckle and it can get pretty darn bumpy taxiing around. I assume a good number of these students are foreigners wearing epaulets.

  25. #25
    txpacer's Avatar
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    You shouldn't underestimate the power of epaulettes

    https://youtu.be/f6q2VKsvQEQ
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  26. #26
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Saw a guy taxi a super Cub to put it in another hanger put it on it's nose. When it started he wasn't buckled in and went forward aggravating the situation. I wear a seat belt whenever I start the engine.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
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    aktango58's Avatar
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    On the water, I don't put on the belt until I am getting ready to launch. long taxis can be normal, and having to jump out and fend off can be a quick need. Also, trying to get an IO-anything hot started in current, wind and waves can be a challenge before your wing tip is in the boat that pulled up to watch...

    That said, Bob- have you gone inside the flight school and gently discussed the issue with the instructors and owners? Explained that other aircraft need to use that taxi way, and if they want to run 10 minute checklists, there are plenty of other areas, not blocking the route, (like the tie down you used) that they could be out of the way?

    If not, you need to do that- start nice.

    If so, maybe if a particular day you and your flying buddy each had flat tires, one on either side of the flight school's mess, and had to change tires while they waited, it might develop understanding...

    Otherwise, you just have to be patient- you choose to live in the land of fruits and nuts.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    40 years ago I worked at a shop that had singer Lou Reed "Take a walk on the wild side" as a customer. He had a cabin on a dead end road in the woods by the Delaware Water Gap. He was a very strange reculse type person. We had a IHC Scout for sale with a plow. He bought it and kept it in NYC as his daily driver's. He left the plow on all year, said he never had a problem again driving in city traffic. Bob, if nice fails you need to get more creative.

    Glenn
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  29. #29

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    I like the flat tire idea!


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    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    40 years ago I worked at a shop that had singer Lou Reed "Take a walk on the wild side" as a customer. He had a cabin on a dead end road in the woods by the Delaware Water Gap. He was a very strange reculse type person. We had a IHC Scout for sale with a plow. He bought it and kept it in NYC as his daily driver's. He left the plow on all year, said he never had a problem again driving in city traffic. Bob, if nice fails you need to get more creative.

    Glenn
    Lol! I was just thinking that no airplane ever argues with the snow plow. But a plow might be a little unusual in southern Cal.

    Web
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  31. #31

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    That said, Bob- have you gone inside the flight school and gently discussed the issue with the instructors and owners? Explained that other aircraft need to use that taxi way, and if they want to run 10 minute checklists, there are plenty of other areas, not blocking the route, (like the tie down you used) that they could be out of the way?

    If not, you need to do that- start nice.

    Yep. Did that. Pleasantly offered the suggestion above. Flight school owner came unglued, and I left. Discussions with ramp owners were far more pleasant. I am actually a reasonably pleasant guy. When I get pissed, I don't scream and holler, I go do touch and goes. Defuses it.
    The no seatbelt suggestion was meant to get the aircraft going. Some of the modern inertia reels can take forever to fasten. Pull the aircraft on to the taxiway, start it, check oil pressure, and taxi to "Spot A", and maybe shut down so an extensive pre and post start checklist can be carefully completed. Towing works too.

    I have another suggestion, but it will not work as well, since the post start checklist cannot be rushed or shortened. I plan to suggest as a distant third alternative that when they see us coming and have not started the engine they push back into the tiedown spot and let us pass. The problem there is that once the pilots get in and start the process it can be ten minutes before engine start. They would resist getting out . . .

    Last week I taxied around the black Cessna, flew my daily three landings, and passed the outbound black Cessna on my way back in. By that time he had progressed to the two way taxiway on his way out. What is it about a 172 that takes 20 minutes to get it moving?
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  32. #32
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    It isn't just the flight schools.
    I'm based on a fairly busy public use airport,
    and I see a lot of rude, inconsiderate behavior.
    Pilots parked at one of the only two fuel station spots while they're eating lunch or whatever.
    I doubt they'd leave their car at the gas station pump while they hit McD's--
    why do that when they're at an airport?
    Also recently had the buddy of a new rental hangar tenant leave his airplane in front of the tenant's hangar,
    and go to town-- meanwhile blocking the taxiway to 8 other hangars, in spite of there being about 25 open parking spots on the ramp.
    Also all the time I see cars parked left blocking taxiways and hangar doors...
    all done by airplane people who ought to know better.
    One airplane taking up an entire 2-airplane-sized run-up area, prop wash aimed at open hangars,
    lonnnng run-ups done at the hold-short line with other ready-to-go pilots waiting behind them....
    the list goes on and on.
    I think some people just switch their smarts, common sense, and courtesy switches to "off" when they get to the airport,
    as they don't even seem to realize they're doing anything wrong.
    (OK, rant over. sorry!)
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  33. #33

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    Taxiway Blocked?

    I have to say, the push by FAA on checklists is part of the problem. I recall a discussion on here or an the J3 forum about checklists for checkrides. I was always taught that a checklist is supposed to check that things had already been completed, not a do list. When the list is so long you can’t remember it, and you have to read step by step you open yourself up to errors.

    From the sounds of it, that 172 checklist is longer than our C37 checklist! That makes no sense.


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    Last edited by dgapilot; 04-17-2019 at 02:07 PM.
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  34. #34
    Wannabe Cubdriver's Avatar
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    They say Chivalry is dead, I guess Airmanship went with it.
    Every instructor I had always prioritized their wallet over instruction but at least didn't make me waste other people's time on the taxiway, that's what the ramp and run-up areas were for...
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  35. #35

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    Today the flight school blocked both the taxiway and the maintenance ramp. Ramp is plenty wide, but they just stopped in the exact middle. I think they are trying to pick a fight. I threaded my way around, crossing two forbidden tie downs. I should hear about that tomorrow.

    Checklists! I invented them for a J3. Three items on the walkaround, one on the after start, one after takeoff, and CIGAR TIPS and GMS for the important ones. We had to have after landing and shutdown checklists too - one item each. The very picky and scared DPE said they were OK. After landing was the toughest - I forget what we used - Flaps up in the Super Cub, but something silly for the J3.

    The way I see it, a before start checklist should never have things like "Master- ON" "mixture-RICH" " starter - ENGAGE". After all, if you forget those sorts of things, you are not going flying! And that's a good thing!
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  36. #36

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    Wow, thanks for reminding me how lucky I am flying out of my own strip, I tend to take it for granted.

    I'd done just what you did, go around them, whatever it took, let the chips fall wherever.

  37. #37

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    Bob again what airport? Just curious, thanks, Pete Schoeninger
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  38. #38

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    Pete - Montgomery, in San Diego. I am, by actual count, 3% of reported average daily operations, and March 2019 by actual count, 4 1/2%. I have been flying out of Montgomery for 52 years, and based my J3 there since 1976. It is now possible that i have more experience in Montgomery's class D than any other pilot. I bet that is more than you wanted to know - but wait! I logged 96 Stearman hours last year, all in the pattern, and all as instructor pilot.

    What fun! Who knew retirement could be this good?

  39. #39
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    I plowed snow for the neighborhood a few years. One guy there was a bit of an ass, and had it in for most of the others. Had his own plow, and did his own thing.

    After a couple of times of me plowing the common road, and him coming after and pushing snow into other's driveways, (other side of the road had NO driveways), the State Trooper got called. Guess about an hour after I plowed, he came by with his bobcat and worked to block the neighbor in. As I told the Trooper- If he wants a snow war, I can do that. Don't pick a fight with guys owning more and bigger machines, I was ready to haul snow with trucks and build a massive pile in that guys driveway.

    Never had another problem.

    Park every one of your planes around the flight school planes, block them in for a few hours on a busy day. Then nicely walk in and discuss courtesy. Might take a couple days for the owner to cool down though
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  40. #40

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    Thanks Bob, great reply. Have a good day. Pete

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