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Thread: 35s on 6 gear?

  1. #1

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    35s on 6 gear?

    Interested to hear from anyone who has run this combination. I know itll be less vis over the nose, tail heavier, etc... With all due respect, Im more interested in real world experience than opinions. Ive heard the 6 gear debates and Im not looking to rehash that again. I see a lot of 35s on 3 gear and just would like to hear from someone who has or currently runs them on 6. Pics would be great too... Thanks!

  2. #2
    Barnstormer's Avatar
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    900 hours with 35's on 6" gear.

    IMG_0441.jpg
    Phil Whittemore
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  3. #3
    Rob's Avatar
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    This cub has been on 6" gear for 20 years, and the last 6 of it on 35's. Vis over the nose and tail weight
    are pretty far down on the list of things I'd be concerned with when contemplating this combo. At 5'6" I can see over the nose well enough to get in and out of as technical of a spot as a guy cares to venture into, and even with a bad back I can lift the tail out of sand / snow just fine.


    Last edited by Rob; 03-10-2019 at 11:20 AM.
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  4. #4
    Rob's Avatar
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    For comparison, here's another shot. The legend, also on long gear, is on 26" BW's.

    As you can see, the over all height difference is far more dramatic than the actual angle (over the nose vis)



    If I were contemplating this combination, factors I would consider are;

    Over all weight increase. This combination is HEAVY
    Flight characteristics. This is no longer going to be a sunday morning pattern flier.
    Cost. Self explanatory

    If the mission likes this combo, and the above are not a factor, it's a pretty plush way to roll.
    FWIW, in my barn there are mounted tires ranging from 8:50's through 35's, and a brand new set of Atlee 3" gear complete with AOSS hanging on the wall, yet I am still happily on the combo pictured above. YMMV

    Take care, Rob
    Last edited by Rob; 03-10-2019 at 11:21 AM.
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  5. #5
    Rob's Avatar
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    On the angle note. This combination should yield a better attitude for slow lading and take off. But my experience with respect to take off has been that while the AOA has been increased, if you don't have the wheaties (power) to overcome the added weight and footprint drag, you may actually increase your take off distance just a smidge.

    Take care, Rob
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  6. #6
    Barnstormer's Avatar
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    Wheaties or a light-weight cub... or a small belly I suppose.


    What Rob said is spot on. Here's another picture with me in it. I'm 6' 4" tall. As I stated in an earlier post in the Experimental section I did just replace my gear legs (total time on the legs 1200+ hours) in part cause the top mounting holes where egged out causing the gear to rattle a lot on landings. More wear with the longer gear. I also change all the suspension bolts every year although since I changed over from AOSS to TK1's I no longer have bent bolts, but I still change them- cheap insurance.


    The new gear is 6x3 (instead of 6x0) and I can't tell any difference flying although the tail is heavier to lift. Once I'm on wheels again I'll know if I like it or go back to 6x0.

    DSC_0257.jpg
    Phil Whittemore
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  7. #7
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I would use an 1 1/2" axle, way stronger than 1 1/4". The 35" makes for a long arm, saw one disappear under the plane. Bent the axle, lucky.
    Steve Pierce

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    Will Rogers

  8. #8
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Yes. 6" extended gear with 35" Alaska Bushwheels.

    Done it. absolutely recommend it. FADodge built mine with heavy wall tubing for the aft leg of the gear vee. (before this, the aft tube would bow a bit over time) (a welded in brace tube/step would be a reasonable option to prevent bowing on normal wall thickness aft tubes I would guess). (My next set will have that option)

    All the old arguments about 6" gear are half old wives tales. Talk to folks that have run them, not guys who heard this or that from the "guru". Most 6" extended owners will NOT go back to less.

    I have only run 6" extended with bungees. Would think the present options for shocks an excellent combo if set up properly, or piss poor if not tuned in or run on sacked out bungees

    FWIW��
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  9. #9
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Hey Dave, wasn't Atlee against using the 6" gear? Structural vs use?
    Steve Pierce

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  10. #10
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Steve, the story has been related on sc.org before. and many times before sc.org was a twinkle in SJ's eye, I am sure.

    Atlee said the six inch extended gear put too much leverage on the lower longerons and gear fittings cuz a set of six inch ext got knocked off a plane.

    Funny, since Atlees skis have highest pedestals, thus, lotsa leverage on longerons, as I see it.

    I know Nanook has reasons he doesnt like em. Would like to hear from him about 6" again.
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  11. #11

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    I like Rob's take. On the other hand, some folks are willing to sacrifice performance for the macho look, and I approve of that - so long as they don't tell me how it leaps off pavement, climbs better . . .

  12. #12
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    At the risk of derailment,

    Dave, I'd be interested to hear more about the aft tube bow. Is this a side load bow? I've never seen an aft tube bow, but I have bowed a front tube from side loading. No fault of the gear, or reason to suspect a shorter leg would have faired better, 100% operator induced wedging in too small of a space. Looks real weird when it happens too, because it bows out and up. Is this what you've seen on the aft tube?

    Take care, Rob

  13. #13
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob View Post
    At the risk of derailment,

    Dave, I'd be interested to hear more about the aft tube bow. Is this a side load bow? I've never seen an aft tube bow, but I have bowed a front tube from side loading. No fault of the gear, or reason to suspect a shorter leg would have faired better, 100% operator induced wedging in too small of a space. Looks real weird when it happens too, because it bows out and up. Is this what you've seen on the aft tube?

    Take care, Rob
    very, very common, on even a standard length cub gear... one of the things on my inspection check list.... cause is not from side load...

    from aft force....

    but if you constrain it with a welded step(fore to aft), then it MUST/WILL bend sideways, and falsely makes you think it was a side load issue.....

  14. #14
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Just as Mike says Rob.

    Rear tube. pretty common.

    Mike. I hadnt seen one with the welded in step/brace bend yet. Can visual why the brace would constrain it in one direction and cause it to move a different direction.

    I have bent a shock strut on 3" gear after a heavy landing with heavy skis. no breakage, but definitely bent. A rebound thing I figure. Gear V was not affected
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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Calkins View Post
    Just as Mike says Rob.

    Can visual why the brace would constrain it in one direction and cause it to move a different direction.
    ..

    make up a test... and play with it..

    when you strengthen something in one dimension/direction it cannot flex that way anymore, and the overloaded force must/will deflect more in another dimension/direction, then it did before you constrained the first one.....

    more than one time i outsmarted myself thinking I was making something better, and actually made it worse/more guaranteed to fail in another/certain direction....

    I think I may have misinterpreted your response...

  16. #16

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    Rob, I hear the nose on your cub recently got a raise......pirep
    dave

  17. #17

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    You guys have jacked up trucks with big tires? If so, that explains it.
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  18. #18
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    you ever flown em Don?

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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Calkins View Post
    you ever flown em Don?
    They are like Crack.
    Steve Pierce

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  20. #20

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    Haven't tried them or crack. I'm Just being a smart ass.
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  21. #21

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    Crack? Somebody say crack? What flavor?
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  22. #22
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinJ View Post
    Crack? Somebody say crack? What flavor?
    STOL Crack, you know what I'm talking about. You are probably Jonesing right now for that next big mod.
    Steve Pierce

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  23. #23
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Don. I put a smiley in my question.....figured your comment was good natured. I drive a Chevy with stock size tires.

    I never had crack, but high perf 4 cylinder Lycomings in the 230HP range are addictive!

  24. #24
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Calkins View Post
    Don. I put a smiley in my question.....figured your comment was good natured. I drive a Chevy with stock size tires.

    I never had crack, but high perf 4 cylinder Lycomings in the 230HP range are addictive!
    Just a figure of speech I use a lot.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  25. #25
    DW's Avatar
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    Interesting thread I have a set of 6" gear I've been going to install for a while now I'm juiced up to get it on.

  26. #26

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    I installed extended gear to get the nose higher and now performance flaps to get the nose lower??
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  27. #27

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    I second Dave Calkins' assessment of the 6" gear.

    I've been running 6" gear since 2007. 12 years and 5000+ hours later, I can say the setup is solid. For maintenance, the landing gear bushings get replaced every other year or two. Also, I'm on my third set of shock struts (the old ones wore out and Atlee doesn't re-bush them).

    In 2016, I upgraded to 35's. I'm stoked on the 6" and 35's and have no intentions of going back. For what it's worth, if I had to choose between either of these two mods - I would take the 6" gear.

    Another thing to note about the 6" gear is that it is quite a bit wider than standard gear. This directly translates to better ground stability while taxiing around in strong wind conditions.

    As a disclaimer, I've bent one gear leg. I'm confident any length of gear would have bent given the circumstances (big rock + skis = broken stuff).

  28. #28
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    OK, I gotta ask what you like best about the 6" gear?
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  29. #29
    Rob's Avatar
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    Hi Steve,


    Not sure if that was directed to anyone in particular, but Ill bite. Although Ill acknowledge up front that to a better cub guy, none of this might be worth while.


    1) Height. When I fly a cub on std or 3 gear, it is pretty common to come back with green prop tips (best case scenario) or peppered prop tips (bad) Lay the whip to your cub to get the tail up and turned around on the sand bars (where the river rock is mostly smooth and polished)and you cringe as your prop gets pelted. Do the same on a malpais flat where the rocks are sharp and angular, and you will cry as you pit it past the point of dressing. Your hard pressed to suck anything up with 6 extended gear rolling on 35s. A better stick probably wouldnt have this problem, but thats not me. lol!


    2) Dabbing I love being able to see exactly what both tires are doing at the same time. With my poor piloting skills, it is reasonably common for me to land on a malpais ridge top where the stones appeared to be cantaloupe sized, only to be flairing into what more realistically approaches the size of a round 26 goodyear. Being able to dab a tire exactly where I want it, and if energy still allows, lift the other up and over something is priceless Yes I realize you can do this almost as easily on 31s with std gear (specially if you carry a nick name like lurch or tiny) but for me its just that much easier with the exaggerated stance.


    3) What about that stance? I have yet to land on a ridge that was level for very long. Flat? yes, level not so much. I love the extra width when I need to turn around on something way off camber. Further more, when you are uneven ground, not the kind that rolls the whole airplane, but the kind that swallows one wheel at a time, all that extra width and height starts paying back in spades. Tussocks (the kind that old school Alaskans have a very politically incorrect word for) come to mind. Those rogue 26 goodyear rocks do the same.


    4) The longer arm makes running a 1280/1380 bungee combo just perfect. The same on shorter gear works, but a witness tie wrap on the strut will show you may as well be running straight legged.


    5) The added AOA. between the extra height and the extra AOA, you really add a good amount to the tail low approach. Take off (for me at least) is not any better, in fact it probably suffers a little, but not enough to offset the rest.


    None of this means I dont see/know where the sacrifices are. And there are plenty


    Take care, Rob

    Last edited by Rob; 03-13-2019 at 10:12 AM. Reason: speeeling
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  30. #30
    Rob's Avatar
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    Dave and Mike,


    Thx. I guess that would be a toe stubbing type injury.


    Dave, Thx for pointing out yet another thing we do backwards down here in the desert



    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    OK, I gotta ask what you like best about the 6" gear?
    Skis. Switching from big tires, even 29’s or 31’s, you lose aoa big time with most skis. And sometimes on skis is when you need it most...
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  32. #32
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    6" gear doesn't give 6" more height. It's an angle related deal that an engineer can determine. At ~45* gear angle it would be about +3". Plus the longer gear needs way stiffer bungees to prevent unwanted extension.

    I had a set on my PA-12-180 with Cub gear and liked them. But they would twist from the AERO 3000's and probably needed more lower leg bracing and stiffer bungees. Not many wheel ops with the 26" Goodyears and long gear. Not my gift in flying.

    That heavy plane had an 82" prop so tall was better in deep snow.

    Gary

  33. #33
    Rob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    6" gear doesn't give 6" more height.
    Gary
    Correct, but it does give a 6" gear wider stance, and almost twice the height increase as 3"... both good things for my ops.

  34. #34
    Rob's Avatar
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    Hi agpilot Dave,


    Ya ya…. I finally got around to the nose job. I figure after 20 pages of testimonials from individuals far more qualified than I, I’d be off the hook on the pirep deal, but I will find the old thread and weigh in.


    I will say this though, I have had the opportunity to fly a few with ‘snooty noses’ but they’ve always been different airplanes, so I never really knew how much difference to attribute to what. It was really nice to have a very familiar platform to get an honest before and after view. Thanks for reminding me


    Take care, Rob

  35. #35
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    I wish Nanook would comment.

    I recall his major dislike of the 6" was how his plane reacted in "tussocks". Something about how it dipped a wing further.

    I ran 6" with Aero 3000 skis and that was a great combo. No twisting or issues Gary. That was the set with heavy wall rear tubes.

  36. #36
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Thanks Dave for the info on gear tubes.. Mine was inherited and an early version from Atlee. I phoned and asked Atlee and he said bring it down and we'll check them for straight and beef up. Never got around to it and then sold the PA-12 a few years later. Sure liked the AOA in snow tho. Plane was excellent.

    Gary

  37. #37
    Rob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Calkins View Post
    I wish Nanook would comment.

    I recall his major dislike of the 6" was how his plane reacted in "tussocks". Something about how it dipped a wing further.
    I seem to recall it something about being tippy, but I never could quite understand what he was getting at. I do agree that if you lose a strut or tire, it gets the wing spooky low. And if you nose it in, you get startlingly verticle, not that I have any experience there
    Last edited by Rob; 03-13-2019 at 12:41 PM.

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