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Thread: How would you retrieve a cub fallen through the ice?

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    cubpilot2's Avatar
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    How would you retrieve a cub fallen through the ice?

    Ok. Lots of experience out there. How would or did you get a plane out of something like this?

    Oh... and with minimal damage. Give details please as it could really help someone in the future.

    D62FCB7B-4F26-4AFF-AB0D-F8EEEECF067E.jpeg
    Ed

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    Cut it loose with a chainsaw, jack it up by the wings (jacks and cribs), tent and heat it to thaw out some of the water weight, and call Northern Pioneer to fly it back to civilization.

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    Google Bradley lake cub in Ice.
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    Most of the cub is on top the ice so once it is loose it should move pretty easy. Dry suit, chain saw and then pick it up with helicopter. Hotsy or other heater to melt ice would be nice. You once you cut it free of the ice you might be able to pick it up with the helicopter. It went in because the ice is not thick so as you pick the plane the water will drain out (cut belly) that leaves you with a 1200 lb cub with 3 inches of ice inside. The helicopters pick up beavers so the cub should not be that big of a problem. On the cheap I would build tripod on 4x8 plywood sheets and cut ice with chainsaw and come along it out slowly. Once it is onto of the ice let everything freeze then tarp it, thaw, change oil, mags, prop, and struts. Fire it up and go home.
    DENNY
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    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    Max Folsom could fly in there with 3 Spruce poles, chainsaw and couple of blue tarps and a chain comealong, and have that out, in 2 hrs! He and his brother Rodney, can
    Flip a Skywagon thats upside down in the water on floats , turn it back over, drag it to shure, and in 6 hrs; fly it outta there! If it didnt get other damage when it got fliped. They have done dozens of them over the last 40 years!

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    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrb View Post
    Google Bradley lake cub in Ice.
    https://backcountrypilot.org/forum/s...ska-1972-16302
    Gordon

    N4328M KTDO
    My SPOT: tinyurl.com/N4328M (case sensitive)
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  7. #7
    Scouter's Avatar
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    This is how the State of Maine retrieves their gear. Of course you have to have some pull with the National Guard

    https://www.facebook.com/george.dumo...4309945053557/

    Jim
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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    In my case the tips of the skis were on the bottom about five feet deep. We set up two heights of pipe staging on the bottom, then with a come-a-long tied to the crankshaft behind the prop lifted it high enough to place some long 2 x 12s under the skis to straddle the hole. Then dragged it to shore. One prop blade was bent so changed prop. Borrowed a generator from the fire dept to run a space heater to get the engine running. Flew it off the ice. The take off run was about a half a mile with the ice in the wings and belly. Put it in a friends heated hangar where it took about a week to melt the ice which had collected.
    N1PA
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    The Bradley lake cub in ice story has been discussed on here a couple years ago. That recovery took a while as I recall due to bad weather that refroze all of the work that had been done the previous couple weeks. Notice in the picture of that cub they used an outboard motor to move the water around and over the plane to keep the ice open and ware away the remaining ice. As I recall my Dad flew me by it before they started trying to remove it and all that was showing above the snow was part of the rudder. That canyon is a really cold place to try and thaw ice that time of year.

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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    It probably will run, but my head says it went in water at probably full power, so prop blades will be bent forward, engine sucked up water too so probably bent conecting rod or 2. Maybe hydrolocked a cylinder/head separation maybe.


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    Many years ago (the 1980 era) the owner of a large A/E firm here in Anchorage flipped his amphib 185 off the end of my dock in very late October. The lake froze before they plucked it out. They waited until December, used chainsaws to cut the ice away, built a log tripod over it and hoisted it up.

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    Serious question as I've heard the tripod idea before. How long were the logs? I figure you'd need nearly 20' legs on the tripod given the scope they'd need to clear the plane.

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    I really don't remember. It was either my senior year in HS or my freshman year in college and details like that just didn't matter. I am sure you are right though, in the 20' range would make sense. Plenty of good birch and spruce there that you can easily get that distance out of. My cabin ended up 20 x 24 with a 8 foot covered deck and 2 foot overhang on the back. So some of my logs were 30+ feet for the purlins. I don't remember what happened to the logs either, I just remember the big flooded mess it created where I snowmachine off the lake usually.

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    NTSB Identification: ANC85LA007

    The docket is stored on NTSB microfiche number 25745.

    Accident occurred Saturday, October 20, 1984 in SHULIN LAKE, AK

    Aircraft: CESSNA A185E, registration: N70018
    Injuries: 2 Uninjured.

    NTSB investigators may not have traveled in support of this investigation and used data provided by various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report.

    THE ACFT NOSED OVER DURING A WATER LANDING. THIS ACFT HAD WHEELS IN THE FLOATS AND ONE OF THE WHEELS WAS NOT RETRACTED FOR THE WATER LANDING. THESE GEAR ARE HAND RETRACTED BY THE PLT. THE PLT SAID HE CHECKED VISUALLY TO INSURE THE LEFT GEAR WAS UP BUT DID NOT VISUALLY CHECK THE RIGHT. TO DO SO ONE MUST UNDO SAFETY BELT AND LOOK OUT THE RIGHT SIDE. GEAR INDICATORS UNRELIABLE IF LANDINGS MADE IN SALT WATER. A MIRROR IS PROVIDED BUT HARD TO READ FOR VISUAL CHECK FROM LEFT SEAT.


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I like how it states "IN Shulin Lake" not "at Shulin lake"

    Also, in October 1984 I would have been a senior in HS, so the only thing on my mind was girls and graduating. Not tripods.
    Last edited by StalledOut; 01-07-2019 at 05:16 PM.
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    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Serious question as I've heard the tripod idea before. How long were the logs? I figure you'd need nearly 20' legs on the tripod given the scope they'd need to clear the plane.
    Stew,
    We have had a set of galvanized 2.5" pipe tripod here since the 1960's that has been used on Cubs , Champs, Tcrafts many times for changing from floats to skis. I will
    measure the legs tomorrow if your interested ? Its just 3 pipes held togeather by one eyebolt at top thru all 3 pipes. I am going to guess they are about 16' but not sure on that. I used to jack 180/185 up when we got caught in overflow with spruce poles are those do need to be about
    20' ers! Later.
    E

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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Serious question as I've heard the tripod idea before. How long were the logs? I figure you'd need nearly 20' legs on the tripod given the scope they'd need to clear the plane.
    when we'd go change a 185 engine we would take 16' 2X4" with us inside the 185 to make tripod... going back in tail

    I would assume that's about the same hight needed... you'd be picking by the engine/or crank....

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    Quote Originally Posted by TurboBeaver View Post
    Stew,
    We have had a set of galvanized 2.5" pipe tripod here since the 1960's that has been used on Cubs , Champs, Tcrafts many times for changing from floats to skis. I will
    measure the legs tomorrow if your interested ? Its just 3 pipes held togeather by one eyebolt at top thru all 3 pipes. I am going to guess they are about 16' but not sure on that. I used to jack 180/185 up when we got caught in overflow with spruce poles are those do need to be about
    20' ers! Later.
    E

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    I would like to know. Probably a few others here would as well. Then I'll pray I never need the knowledge!

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    icy 2.jpg
    Wait until the ice goes out and tow it to a nice long beach.
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    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eskimo77 View Post
    icy 2.jpg
    Wait until the ice goes out and tow it to a nice long beach.
    Is that the 180 our mutual friend and his brother salvaged and now fly?

    Stewart, I agree!!
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

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    Some years ago, some may remember the incident at Mile Hi concerning a Bearhawk with tweaked gear. A comalong and a log tripod did the job there, so the gear could be jury rigged together enough to fly it out. A group effort, lots of hands on deck, it was a pretty slick deal, and at least it saved a helicopter bill.
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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by courierguy View Post
    Some years ago, some may remember the incident at Mile Hi concerning a Bearhawk with tweaked gear. A comalong and a log tripod did the job there, so the gear could be jury rigged together enough to fly it out. A group effort, lots of hands on deck, it was a pretty slick deal, and at least it saved a helicopter bill.
    My step brother and I replaced the gear shoes and reinstalled the gears on a 185 with no hoist. Tip plane onto one wingtip, shoveled dirt under belly on other side. Tip other way and repeat till we had it high enough to put gear and big tires back on. We got there late afternoon and I think by midday next day we had it on itís gear again. Our pilot had made a nice 60í landing with the 185í. About a foot to low. Left one gear in the riverbank and other mostly removed.


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    Yes AkTango, I'm the brother. It was a great adventure and you can't beat the view.
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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    During the late 80s a 185 with a brand new set of hydraulic wheel skis went to the bottom of Two Lakes when the pilot needed a pit stop after having been told by his boss not to land on that lake. That lake is known for having thin spots in the middle of the winter. As far as I know it is still there at 190 feet. I found it with a side scan sonar. It is right side up facing north out near the middle.
    N1PA
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  24. #24
    cruiser's Avatar
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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0_oKHARhXw Low tech Ruskies made easy work getting this car out
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    During the late 80s a 185 with a brand new set of hydraulic wheel skis went to the bottom of Two Lakes when the pilot needed a pit stop after having been told by his boss not to land on that lake. That lake is known for having thin spots in the middle of the winter. As far as I know it is still there at 190 feet. I found it with a side scan sonar. It is right side up facing north out near the middle.
    Bring it up, call it Glacier Girl 2.
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !
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    Quote Originally Posted by PerryB View Post
    Bring it up, call it Glacier Girl 2.
    I believe I’d spend 1/2 the money and just buy Skywagon8a’s. It’s even got floats making it less likely to end up at the bottom of a lake

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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PerryB View Post
    Bring it up, call it Glacier Girl 2.
    I entertained the thought at the time. A group of people bought it on the bottom and then one of them lost his life in a crash of something else. They wanted me to show them where it is but did not want to compensate me for what it had cost me to locate it. I did snag it. The plan was to lasso the prop and pull. But without a title, I just left it there. There is likely only superficial sheet metal damage and whatever the water did to it. At that depth it's likely in decent shape.
    N1PA
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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Lake bottoms can be corrosive. Low oxygen levels at times and hydrogen sulfide produced by bacteria and vegetative decomposition. Can create acidic pH levels. Not saying that's the case here but it can happen.

    Gary

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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    This one has a constant current, at least when the ice is out. It actually flows from the outlet towards the inlet on the surface. Lots of glacial silt.
    N1PA

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    Quote Originally Posted by eskimo77 View Post
    Yes AkTango, I'm the brother. It was a great adventure and you can't beat the view.
    He showed me pictures of that recovery. Pretty cool!!

    How is your other bird? I spend an extra few days in Bethel so Nate could help on that.

    Pete- more than one owner has told a pilot to stay off X lake, only to find the pilot landed exactly there- and needed assistance to get home.

    skis and thin ice is tough, when you do go through you have to get out and around the wing to get air... scary for me.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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    cubpilot2's Avatar
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    Craig Elg when he owned Regal air at Lake Hood was taking a trapper in his 185 to upper Russian Lake shortly before Christmas several years ago.
    The trapper was to use a forest service cabin there.
    Craig was concerned about overflow so he made two parallel passes in front of the cabin. No overflow was showing so he landed between the two previous tracks an stopped near the cabin.

    He and the passenger were outside discussing where to unload his gear when Craig noticed some overflow showing under the 185.
    He got in to move it and as soon as he hit the starter it broke through the ice and fell to the wings.
    He said he wasnít sure if he was going to get out as he could barely open the door due to the ice jamming it.
    As I recall he said he had to push/kick it open with his legs and barely squeezed out.
    His only route to the surface was through the holes left in the ice by the ski tips.

    Craig was wearing Carhart insulated coveralls and of course soaked. All of their gear was now under water.
    He and his passenger got into the cabin which had some firewood but no way to light a fire.
    Craig said that fortunately for years he had carried a small flint on his key chain;and was able to use it and his pocket knife to get a spark enough to ignite a flame.
    Without that they would have been in deep trouble as he was already becoming hypothermic.

    I donít recall who rescued them but it was within a couple of days.

    The 185 was turned over to the insurance company and was retrieved by a third party hired by them. They waited for the ice to thicken and went in with snow machines to get it out.
    Craig said that they used chainsaws and axes to break the ice free at the engine and fuselage.
    They then jacked the tail up high enough to pull it over on its back with the snow machines.
    When it fell over the vertical fin and rudder took a beating.

    They then proceeded to drag it backwards on its back, away from the hole. Somehow later it was turned back on its feet ( I think with the helicopter) and sling lifted back to Lake Hood.

    Craig bought the salvage back and eventually restored it. Lots of damage was done during the retrieval; with lots of bent metal ,dents, and axe marks.
    Got to help him with the repairs and reassembly. It served him well until he sold out and left Alaska.

    Sure miss Craig! Gone west way too soon.
    Ed
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  32. #32
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubpilot2 View Post
    Craig Elg when he owned Regal air at Lake Hood was taking a trapper in his 185 to upper Russian Lake shortly before Christmas several years ago.
    The trapper was to use a forest service cabin there.
    Craig was concerned about overflow so he made two parallel passes in front of the cabin. No overflow was showing so he landed between the two previous tracks an stopped near the cabin.

    He and the passenger were outside discussing where to unload his gear when Craig noticed some overflow showing under the 185.
    He got in to move it and as soon as he hit the starter it broke through the ice and fell to the wings.
    He said he wasnít sure if he was going to get out as he could barely open the door due to the ice jamming it.
    As I recall he said he had to push/kick it open with his legs and barely squeezed out.
    His only route to the surface was through the holes left in the ice by the ski tips.

    Craig was wearing Carhart insulated coveralls and of course soaked. All of their gear was now under water.
    He and his passenger got into the cabin which had some firewood but no way to light a fire.
    Craig said that fortunately for years he had carried a small flint on his key chain;and was able to use it and his pocket knife to get a spark enough to ignite a flame.
    Without that they would have been in deep trouble as he was already becoming hypothermic.

    I donít recall who rescued them but it was within a couple of days.

    The 185 was turned over to the insurance company and was retrieved by a third party hired by them. They waited for the ice to thicken and went in with snow machines to get it out.
    Craig said that they used chainsaws and axes to break the ice free at the engine and fuselage.
    They then jacked the tail up high enough to pull it over on its back with the snow machines.
    When it fell over the vertical fin and rudder took a beating.

    They then proceeded to drag it backwards on its back, away from the hole. Somehow later it was turned back on its feet ( I think with the helicopter) and sling lifted back to Lake Hood.

    Craig bought the salvage back and eventually restored it. Lots of damage was done during the retrieval; with lots of bent metal ,dents, and axe marks.
    Got to help him with the repairs and reassembly. It served him well until he sold out and left Alaska.

    Sure miss Craig! Gone west way too soon.
    Interesting. Would have never thought of flipping it upside down


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  33. #33

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    AkTango, Both 180's air back in the air, thanks for covering for Nate in an unpleasant situation.
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  34. #34

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    How would you retrieve a cub fallen through the ice?

    Quote Originally Posted by cubpilot2 View Post
    Craig Elg when he owned Regal air at Lake Hood was taking a trapper in his 185 to upper Russian Lake shortly before Christmas several years ago.
    The trapper was to use a forest service cabin there.
    Craig was concerned about overflow so he made two parallel passes in front of the cabin. No overflow was showing so he landed between the two previous tracks an stopped near the cabin.

    He and the passenger were outside discussing where to unload his gear when Craig noticed some overflow showing under the 185.
    He got in to move it and as soon as he hit the starter it broke through the ice and fell to the wings.
    He said he wasnít sure if he was going to get out as he could barely open the door due to the ice jamming it.
    As I recall he said he had to push/kick it open with his legs and barely squeezed out.
    His only route to the surface was through the holes left in the ice by the ski tips.

    Craig was wearing Carhart insulated coveralls and of course soaked. All of their gear was now under water.
    He and his passenger got into the cabin which had some firewood but no way to light a fire.
    Craig said that fortunately for years he had carried a small flint on his key chain;and was able to use it and his pocket knife to get a spark enough to ignite a flame.
    Without that they would have been in deep trouble as he was already becoming hypothermic.

    I donít recall who rescued them but it was within a couple of days.

    The 185 was turned over to the insurance company and was retrieved by a third party hired by them. They waited for the ice to thicken and went in with snow machines to get it out.
    Craig said that they used chainsaws and axes to break the ice free at the engine and fuselage.
    They then jacked the tail up high enough to pull it over on its back with the snow machines.
    When it fell over the vertical fin and rudder took a beating.

    They then proceeded to drag it backwards on its back, away from the hole. Somehow later it was turned back on its feet ( I think with the helicopter) and sling lifted back to Lake Hood.

    Craig bought the salvage back and eventually restored it. Lots of damage was done during the retrieval; with lots of bent metal ,dents, and axe marks.
    Got to help him with the repairs and reassembly. It served him well until he sold out and left Alaska.

    Sure miss Craig! Gone west way too soon.
    80 Romeo. As I recall that 185 had over 10,000 hours on it. Craig sold it not long after it was repaired and got a surprisingly good price for it. I rode in that plane a few times, including when Craig helped stuff me in the baggage area with a badly broken leg and flew me back to Hood. Worst flight ever!

    IMG_5034.JPG
    Last edited by stewartb; 01-11-2019 at 01:57 PM.
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  35. #35
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubpilot2 View Post
    Craig Elg when he owned Regal air at Lake Hood was taking a trapper in his 185 to upper Russian Lake shortly before Christmas several years ago.
    The trapper was to use a forest service cabin there.
    Craig was concerned about overflow so he made two parallel passes in front of the cabin. No overflow was showing so he landed between the two previous tracks an stopped near the cabin.

    He and the passenger were outside discussing where to unload his gear when Craig noticed some overflow showing under the 185.
    He got in to move it and as soon as he hit the starter it broke through the ice and fell to the wings.
    He said he wasnít sure if he was going to get out as he could barely open the door due to the ice jamming it.
    As I recall he said he had to push/kick it open with his legs and barely squeezed out.
    His only route to the surface was through the holes left in the ice by the ski tips.

    Craig was wearing Carhart insulated coveralls and of course soaked. All of their gear was now under water.
    He and his passenger got into the cabin which had some firewood but no way to light a fire.
    Craig said that fortunately for years he had carried a small flint on his key chain;and was able to use it and his pocket knife to get a spark enough to ignite a flame.
    Without that they would have been in deep trouble as he was already becoming hypothermic.

    I donít recall who rescued them but it was within a couple of days.

    The 185 was turned over to the insurance company and was retrieved by a third party hired by them. They waited for the ice to thicken and went in with snow machines to get it out.
    Craig said that they used chainsaws and axes to break the ice free at the engine and fuselage.
    They then jacked the tail up high enough to pull it over on its back with the snow machines.
    When it fell over the vertical fin and rudder took a beating.

    They then proceeded to drag it backwards on its back, away from the hole. Somehow later it was turned back on its feet ( I think with the helicopter) and sling lifted back to Lake Hood.

    Craig bought the salvage back and eventually restored it. Lots of damage was done during the retrieval; with lots of bent metal ,dents, and axe marks.
    Got to help him with the repairs and reassembly. It served him well until he sold out and left Alaska.

    Sure miss Craig! Gone west way too soon.
    Interesting. Would have never thought of flipping it upside down


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  36. #36
    G44's Avatar
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    So how did they get the cub out that went thru the ice last week?

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    Interesting. Would have never thought of flipping it upside down


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app
    Probably because your job is to make them fly again- and flipping it over would create even more work for yourself.

    I like the idea of putting ramps under skis and towing it backwards up ramps.

    Another thought I had the other day was to take some type of inflatable bag, slide under the wing deflated then inflate. Would work like a jack but reduce the amount of damage. Now, finding two large air bladders...
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  38. #38
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    Probably because your job is to make them fly again- and flipping it over would create even more work for yourself.

    I like the idea of putting ramps under skis and towing it backwards up ramps.

    Another thought I had the other day was to take some type of inflatable bag, slide under the wing deflated then inflate. Would work like a jack but reduce the amount of damage. Now, finding two large air bladders...
    No. I like it. Put something on fuselage at lifting eyes to take some of the load and act like a ski. Wings would spread load out nice. Upside down plane donít necessarily get hurt bad. Had one that didnít even dent the spinner or break antenna


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  39. #39

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    I miss Craig too. One of the best I've ever met.
    Likes mike mcs repair, cubpilot2 liked this post

  40. #40
    gdafoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 46 Cub View Post
    I miss Craig too. One of the best I've ever met.
    I completely agree with you on that, a great friend and neighbor here in AZ. I will always be thankful that he made room for me to tag along on his last of many ferry flights taking the Beaver from AZ up to AK. That is one of the "Highlight Flights" in my over 50 years of flying.
    Likes cubpilot2 liked this post

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