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Thread: Possible Static Display Cub

  1. #1
    Clyde Barker's Avatar
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    Possible Static Display Cub

    I've not been flying my experimental cub much for the last few years. It's getting harder to justify the fixed hangar/insurance expenses, so I've been thinking about what to do with my cub. I know that amateur built aircraft are sold all the time and most sellers never have a problem, but I just don't want to have the liability exposure for the rest of my life. So I've been thinking of what to do with my cub.

    I'm planning on contacting Cabela's and Bass Pro Shop after the Christmas shopping rush to see if they will be needing a static display to hang in one of their locations. If that works out I would cancel the airworthiness certificate and registration.

    I was wondering if anyone here has any other ideas of what I could do with my cub. I don't want it to just sit around somewhere and deteriorate. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

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  2. #2

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    Part it out? Exhaust stacks alone would bring more than Cabelas, probably.
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  3. #3
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Cabela's? Bass Pro shop?

    Please give me a call before you go that route- donations to those organizations have not gone well for others.

    Another option would be to sell it without the airworthiness/registration and let another take it apart and reassemble.

    How about a school? Lots of A&P programs in Highschool and colleges needing that type of project.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  4. #4

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    And some 16 year old somewhere who wants to fly so badly he can taste it is going to read this and weep... I get the liability concerns, but no matter how you slice it, it’s a shame for a plane that could bring so much joy to so many to just sit for the rest of its life. I know it’ll never happen, but there needs to be a way to donate these types of things to young eagles or something and absolve the builder of all liability... It’s even a shame for it to go to a school- they can use any old rust-bucket; this thing was born to fly!

  5. #5
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Clyde, why not get an A&P/IA with Cub experience to perform a very thorough Condition Inspection and then get a lawyer to draw up a contract? I would hate to see my trusty stead hanging in a Cabela's store. Most I have seen are built from unairworthy parts. I have seen amateur built experimentals parted out as well but would be very sad in my opinion.
    Steve Pierce

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  6. #6
    n40ff's Avatar
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    Sell it and don't worry about it. I own two E-AB's and have a repairman certificate for both. My plan would be to NOT sell with an condition inspection signed by myself. As Steve suggests, sell w/o an annual and have the owner obtain an inspection by a good A&P. Your liability w/properly worded bill of sale IMO is minimal. I believe the EAA has suggestion for E-AB bill of sale? (Don't sell to a John Denver type)

    Unless you burn it there is no way to absolutely absolve yourself from liability from the wrong lawyer type( Only a suppressed 6.5 Creedmore can take care of one of them)
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  7. #7
    Stew's Avatar
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    "caveat emptor"

    If we could get it a UK permit then it would certainly find a good home over here in the UK.

    Our legal system still respects "caveat emptor", the principle that the buyer alone is responsible for checking the quality and suitability of goods before a purchase is made.

    Once it crossed the Atlantic it is inconceivable that you would ever be held accountable especially if the receipt was suitably worded.
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  8. #8

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    Nice cub please donít part it out. Send it to me in Canada.


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  9. #9
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Clyde, it breaks my heart to think of that hanging somewhere motionless, or being parted out.

    Seriously, spend a few dollars talking to a lawyer about drafting purchase/sale agreements with indemnity.

    Or, (full disclosure--I'm a lawyer), send the plane to me and I'll draft you up an indemnity agreement with any number of pages that will amount to, "I will not sue you, and if anyone else sues you over this aircraft, I'll cover it" language.
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  10. #10

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    wheres it at, i will steal it and leave some cash.
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  11. #11
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    There is no liability if you give it away as a donation, even when flying. I see others beat me to the offer, but I'm willing to accept it as a donation to a good cause and hold you harmless from any liability.

    I'm sure there are others (like that 16 year old mentioned above) that could even make a monentary donation back to you, or relative, or your favorite charity...

    pb
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  12. #12
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    I'll even defer to Farmboy--I know he's been looking hard for wings!
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  13. #13
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    <<<<Another option would be to sell it without the airworthiness/registration and let another take it apart and reassemble.>>>>

    Quick story about people.

    There was an exp. supercub for sale in MT that I called on a little while back, was advertised at 60k. Once you get into looking at ads, it's not hard to see oddities listed. The odd part on this one was where it was listed. (an obscure facebook page for aircraft parts) A friend of mine also reminded me that it was the same plane previously for sale last April from a builder in WA, as parts only, no paperwork, for 25k. The builder wanted to absolve himself of any liability. So I had to call.

    The original (builders) ad showed 350 hours or so on the engine prior to install in cub. The current ad showed airframe and engine with a total hours of 178 or something low like that. When questioned, the fellow on the phone immediately stepped back and said it wasn't his airplane, he was just listing it for a friend. All he knew was what the hour meter showed in the panel. But they had just put the wings back on and had not flown the aircraft at all. He didn't have a contact for the builder, as they (they current owner and him) had dealt with a daughter, as the builder "has dementia or something". He would have his friend call me.

    So I called the number in the original ad as parts for sale for 25k and left a message asking about the airplane, hoping for a call from the builders daughter or someone.

    In the meantime the actual owner called me and regaled me in some wonderful flying stories around the country in all sorts of low and slow aircraft, all while avoiding most of the reasons for the call. I enjoyed the call, but also knew he avoided the question(s). So I point blank asked him about the paperwork, and he said they submitted an application for a duplicate airworthiness cert and were denied by the FAA as the builder had sent them a letter stating it was destroyed. The new owner took photos of the airplane and a bunch of build related receipts and sent them back to the FAA, stating that no, it's in his hangar and ready to fly. So the FAA issued him a duplicate AW certificate, in the original owner/builders name.

    About the time I hung up with the current owner, the builder returned my call... in person, and sounding just fine. As he was driving at the time, I think he's in good health. He immediately questioned how the airplane was available to purchase because he sold it as parts, with no paperwork, and the new owner promised he would not get a certificate and sell it. This was exactly what he was trying to avoid. His next call was going to be to Oklahoma, asking how they could issue a certificate to a new owner in his name. He turned in the AW cert to turn the aircraft back into a pile of parts, and since they accepted it he expected they would keep it that way.

    And that was the end of my connection with that situation. Sorry for the thread disruption, but I thought it may be relevant, as you never know where your airplane truly is going. My friend in Middlebury sold his Fouga Magister to a Museum in Britain or somewhere over on that side of the pond. The photos show it probably flys more there than it did here. Must be a different type of museum.
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  14. #14
    WanaBNACub's Avatar
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    Our flight school up here at the University of Alaska Anchorage has a cub an another experimental bi-wing hanging from the ceiling in the foyer. I think if you could find a flight school or something along those lines to donate it to would be better than a Cabela's or Bass pro. Just my .02 cents which is probably worth less than a penny...

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    While people seem to be worried about liability, I canít say Iíve ever heard of a builder being involved in litigation over an E-AB after itís been sold. Iíd like to see any cases if anyone knows of any.

    That said, sell the airplane and make the new owner proud to carry on your handiwork.


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  16. #16
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Ditto re liability for an E-AB.
    A guy on my home airport built an Avid Catalina amphib homebuilt several years ago.
    I'll just say that it wasn't the best built airplane I've ever seen and leave it at that.
    He was a pretty low time pilot & had several gear-related mishaps with it.
    Sold it to a guy from Texas, who trucked it home.
    A year or two later, that buyer was killed in it,
    a water-takeoff that went bad.
    Never heard about any legal repercussions on the builder.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
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  17. #17
    n40ff's Avatar
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    I know of at least two nasty cases. One was John Denver. The other was an RV10 that crashed and killed a little girl. The lawyer went after EVERYBODY. Of coarse they were really going after Van's rather than the builder, $35 million . Cause was a failed fuel flow sensor of some sort and/or poor install ? That said it seems to be very rare. What, 10,000 RV's and one suit? If so pretty good odds.

    Although our legal system seems more "evolved" than the UK most of us do tend to take personal responsibility. Problem is estates are different. I suppose it also depends on your net worth? I'm not much of a target........

    BTW the RV suit was dismissed.



    Jack
    Last edited by n40ff; 12-06-2018 at 03:42 PM.
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  18. #18
    n40ff's Avatar
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    Farmboy,

    The FAA issuing new paperwork for that airplane seems criminal to me.
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  19. #19
    Clyde Barker's Avatar
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    Jack, the fact that attorneys sometimes go after everybody is my concern. And no matter what kind of liability release is signed by the purchaser, nothing can keep other injured parties from suing, particularly if it's a minor. It would be expensive and stressful to defend even if the suit was denied.

    Farmboy, I didn't think it was possible to get an airworthiness certificate re-instated after it's surrender. Particularly not without good documentation and an inspection. It's really disturbing the the Feds would do that, especially in the name of the original builder!

    Not sure what I'll end up doing, but thanks to everyone for their comments and suggestions. I'll probably just keep paying hangar rent for a while.

    Oh, and my first post wasn't real clear. I wasn't thinking of donating my plane to Cabela's. I'm pretty sure they purchase the planes they have hanging in their stores, although I'm sure it's significantly less money than an airworthy plane would sell for. Even just building a full size model or recovering and painting a junk airframe wouldn't be real cheap.
    Last edited by Clyde Barker; 12-06-2018 at 05:47 PM. Reason: clarification

  20. #20
    Clyde Barker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by n40ff View Post
    Farmboy,

    The FAA issuing new paperwork for that airplane seems criminal to me.
    I agree with that!

  21. #21
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clyde Barker View Post
    Jack, the fact that attorneys sometimes go after everybody is my concern. And no matter what kind of liability release is signed by the purchaser, nothing can keep other injured parties from suing, particularly if it's a minor. It would be expensive and stressful to defend even if the suit was denied.

    Farmboy, I didn't think it was possible to get an airworthiness certificate re-instated after it's surrender. Particularly not without good documentation and an inspection. It's really disturbing the the Feds would do that, especially in the name of the original builder!

    Not sure what I'll end up doing, but thanks to everyone for their comments and suggestions. I'll probably just keep paying hangar rent for a while.

    Oh, and my first post wasn't real clear. I wasn't thinking of donating my plane to Cabela's. I'm pretty sure they purchase the planes they have hanging in their stores, although I'm sure it's significantly less money than an airworthy plane would sell for. Even just building a full size model or recovering and painting a junk airframe wouldn't be real cheap.
    My new hangar will be ready to place aircraft this summer. Maybe you should just take me up on free housing for it, with visitation housing for you, and bring her up here where she can enjoy life in the wilds.

    If you are willing to accept some reasonable legal release of liability, I bet we could find a home for that plane that honors your craftsmanship and allows it to be loved for years to come.

    I agree letting it sit is a bad for aviation. Lots of youth would love to have access to something like this to learn flying.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by n40ff View Post
    Farmboy,

    The FAA issuing new paperwork for that airplane seems criminal to me.
    Legally you canít go E-AB again, no credit for any parts that were installed on an aircraft that previously had an airworthiness certificate. You could go Exhibition with a new data plate, bu there are other limitations with Exhibition that E-AB donít have.


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  23. #23
    n40ff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    Legally you can’t go E-AB again, no credit for any parts that were installed on an aircraft that previously had an airworthiness certificate. You could go Exhibition with a new data plate, bu there are other limitations with Exhibition that E-AB don’t have.


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    Correct, but they didn't have to go "again" as the feds re-instated the original AWC. It frankly surprises me.

  24. #24
    Clyde Barker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by n40ff View Post
    Correct, but they didn't have to go "again" as the feds re-instated the original AWC. It frankly surprises me.
    I'm surprised they re-instated it too. I always thought that if an airworthiness certificate was surrendered, that was the end of that aircraft.

    I guess the guys who got it re-instated knew what they were doing. Had they claimed they built it and attempted to get a new AW they could have been in big trouble.

  25. #25
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    I didnít mean to divert the thread with that story. Nor do I know the outcome.
    For all I know after the original builder called them everything might have been rescinded.
    All I know was the info I was passing on to the guy was not making him happy, like maybe I had inadvertently soaked a beehive with a bucket of fuel, and it was waiting for a match.

    As others stated - many of us cherish Experimentals, and someone would be happy to purchase your cub.

    Pb


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  26. #26

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    Back to parting it out. What kind of engine? If an 85-12, I bet I can find you a buyer. If the fuselage was properly done and a duplicate of Piper, it ought to bring a pretty penny. Tail feathers are a grand, easy. I bet Cabela would give you two grand, but be careful - maybe they would see how good it is and re-sell it?

    I have a really neat train collection, and I would love to see it displayed in the California RR Museum when I croak, but every indication is, if it isn't Lionel, they will sell it. So my family will have that dubious pleasure.

  27. #27
    AdirondackCub's Avatar
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    Clyde I think it would be different for you or you may feel differently about this and selling it if you had a separate entity listed on the data tag as the builder. Most of our kit builders do exactly this by forming an LLC and the LLC is the builder. If it's in your name, you know it's a different story.

    I, like the some others feel it should be sold out of annual and with a signed agreement to hold you harmless. I also feel like many,that it's a huge Vegas long shot anyone comes back on you in that situation. It could be sold de registered, wings off and let the next E-AB person go after the paperwork. That's what I would do, but to scrap it or part it is a bugaboo. MK


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  28. #28
    Clyde Barker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdirondackCub View Post
    Clyde I think it would be different for you or you may feel differently about this and selling it if you had a separate entity listed on the data tag as the builder. Most of our kit builders do exactly this by forming an LLC and the LLC is the builder. If it's in your name, you know it's a different story.

    I, like the some others feel it should be sold out of annual and with a signed agreement to hold you harmless. I also feel like many,that it's a huge Vegas long shot anyone comes back on you in that situation. It could be sold de registered, wings off and let the next E-AB person go after the paperwork. That's what I would do, but to scrap it or part it is a bugaboo. MK


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    The AWC is in my name. Having an LLC as the builder would solve the problem, but when I built it I didnít think I would ever sell it. Iím sure you guys are right, and itís a long shot that there would ever be a problem. I guess I just worry about stuff too much.

    In any case Iím not in a hurry. I think Iíll just hang on to it for now.

    I appreciate all the comments and suggestions.
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  29. #29

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    A single owner LLC is thin shield.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

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    Boy, I'll say! Set up a corporation or LLC just to avoid liability, and fail to have sufficient assets/insurance to cover liabilities = something called "piercing the corporate veil."

    If you set it up correctly, not only do you have to carry insurance until you croak, but you pay the state of incorporation fees every year! In California, that is $800/year, and for a J-3 you then are not eligible for property tax relief.

  31. #31
    Clyde Barker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    Boy, I'll say! Set up a corporation or LLC just to avoid liability, and fail to have sufficient assets/insurance to cover liabilities = something called "piercing the corporate veil."

    If you set it up correctly, not only do you have to carry insurance until you croak, but you pay the state of incorporation fees every year! In California, that is $800/year, and for a J-3 you then are not eligible for property tax relief.
    Unless I misunderstood AdirondackCub, the idea is that the LLC is the builder, not the owner. So the AWC is in the LLC's name, the registration is in the owners name.

    Whether the LLC would provide real protection from liability doesn't matter in my case anyway. I never have been sophisticated enough to think of things like that!

  32. #32
    AdirondackCub's Avatar
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    That's right , the LLC is the builder.


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  33. #33

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    I have purchased 3 Vanns RVís throughout the years from original builders. The 1st two, a liability release wasnt involved.
    The RV8 i now own involved a liability release signed by me, my wife and all adult children. Also i had 1000+ hours in make so the builder figured i likely was proficient. He also insisted i have the RV thoroughly condition inspected before leaving his possession.


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  34. #34
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I got sued over a mid-air in 2002. Very frustrating experience that got cleared up after 5 years but I learned a lot. I learned that you have to have a lot of assets to be a target. I had a $100,000 insurance policy but the lawyer was looking for more. I was sent an 18 page affidavit listing investments, properties, guns, vehicles etc. I laughed, threw it in the trash and called the lawyer who was being paid by my insurance company. I was recently married, bought a house and frankly didn't have ****. I told the lawyer that the opposing attorney could come up here and see what I had and visit with my banker. Having been around other lawsuits it usually involves deep pockets because the amount these lawyers have to make to make it all worth their while. I work on and rebuild airplanes for a living. Yes the liability is there, I do not carry product liability/finished product insurance. They can't take my house or one of our vehiocles and probably don't want either one. I guess basically to a lawyer I am not worth much so am less of a target. I don't know your situation but thought I would throw this out there. I was told it cost $200K to see a law suit through, do you have that much in assets that they are willing to gamble that much money to get what you have?
    Steve Pierce

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  35. #35

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    That's called being "judgment proof". Sometimes in that situation it is better to not have insurance - but there is the issue of social responsibility, which is why some states mandate auto liability insurance. I flew my first 15 years with no insurance at all.
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  36. #36
    n40ff's Avatar
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    I'm certainly judgment proof myself. Practically I'd rather NOT have liability insurance but take Bob's suggestion of responsibility seriously so I have insurance. I have to buy liability to purchase hull anyway but the liability is cheap.

    I'm a gunsmith(or was). I opened a part time shop in 1983 with plans to go full time when I retired from civil service. There were only two companies selling product liability for gunsmiths. My first years premium was $500 based on business volume of $5000. When I went to renew only one company was left and they wanted $1000. I could NOT afford it, didn't do much business to start but managed to pay it. The third year they wanted $1800. I simply couldn't pay. I talked to a lawyer friend who advised to incorporate, have limited assets and I simply wouldn't be a target. I knew it was possible that someone might be hurt by my product so I quit. I remained a gun dealer and collector until 2006 but never fixed or built another gun....

    I was building custom 1911's and there are about a doz. out there. Of coarse they had a "good" SAFE trigger, at least when they went out the door. I made the mistake of putting my name on them and some idiot 3rd party owner had an AD and shot his wife, very minor, but decided to find me over 10 years later. I got a package from a lawyer, first page mentioned too light trigger, quit reading and threw it in the trash. Got a call 6 weeks later and told the SOB I was worth about $100k including my house and to go XXXX himself. Last I heard.

    Jack
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  37. #37

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    you can give it to me SMILE

  38. #38

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    take it apart and sell it as a project
    Last edited by pilotski; 12-10-2018 at 04:31 PM.

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