Gary Dumond
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skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
I remember Gary when he challenged me in the take off contest in Greenville. I was flying the Twin Bee. He had a PA-18. He and the rest of his warden friends were busy stripping down the Cub to fighting weights. Pulling all the radios, draining fuel and sponging out the floats. The Twin Bee was just light on fuel. At the drop of the flag we both pushed the throttles forward. When I was stabilized in the air climbing I looked out my back window and there he was just struggling to break water. Great fun! :smile:
supercrow
FRIEND
Smith Pond near Millinocket, Me
I was there, it was pretty cool.
You know in the early days of the fly in, little Kathy, what a great lady, was almost unbeatable. Dave Youland was great in his supercub. Charlie Coe, probably pulling 40 inches, did well in Dick’s Beaver.
This reminds me of a Dick lecture to us young, green pilots. Dick worked for Pratt and Whitney as an engine tech before WWII. They tested all the engines to destruction,
So one day we had a pilot return with part of a spruce tree lodged under the Beaver. He came in to the office and was upset. Dick was there and sat down. The young pilot said he knew it was close, but he never exceeded 36 inches.
Dick rounded up all us, working in the hangar, for a meeting. I will never forget what he said!
When I was at P&W we ran the 985s continuously for 24 hours at 42 inches. If you are in a jam, push forward. Jake Morrel
This reminds me of a Dick lecture to us young, green pilots. Dick worked for Pratt and Whitney as an engine tech before WWII. They tested all the engines to destruction,
So one day we had a pilot return with part of a spruce tree lodged under the Beaver. He came in to the office and was upset. Dick was there and sat down. The young pilot said he knew it was close, but he never exceeded 36 inches.
Dick rounded up all us, working in the hangar, for a meeting. I will never forget what he said!
When I was at P&W we ran the 985s continuously for 24 hours at 42 inches. If you are in a jam, push forward. Jake Morrel
aktango58
FRIEND
18AA
Take-off Power is red line
Military Power is above redline
OH SH!T Power is to the Stops until you are clear!
Where can we find that book?
BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
When I was checked out in a Beaver in 1977 there was no Flight Manual available, just a mark on the MP gauge and tach. Check pilot said run 30" unless there's a problem on floats then use Wartime power. So I did G/W takeoffs on 4930's all summer at 30" until leaving Chandalar Lake one September with the rear floats under water with two field camps aboard. Upped the power to that MP mark and gee it finally took off from that very long lake (5 mi). Made it over the hills to the south at 30" and learned something. Finally read the FM this summer. Too late for me.
Gary
Gary
BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
Haven't quite finished that great book yet but what's apparent are the challenging weather conditions in the air and on the ground. Lots of good info on how they dealt with that.
Gary
Gary
TurboBeaver
Registered User
Northern Maine
Gary,
30" would be light climb power? The MP gauge should have been redlined
at 36.5" that and 2300rpm would be 450hp. In a heavy Beaver we used to have to carry 34" and 2200rpm to get em to climb on a hot day. Lots of DHC-2s that are tail heavy ( almost any military Beaver unless Kenmore has not shimed the horizontal stabilizer) will need nearly 3/2 just to get the tail bumped up into the " step in the air" ????? Doggie ones need to have flaps cracked in cruise at 29/19
to keep the tail from sagging all the time. Can Not imagine flying that Beaver all summer at nearly 100hp less than rated? You can climb out at 34" for 5 mins from the OM........ And you will get vastly LOWER cly temps than trying to climb at 3/2 on a hot day heavy............
Thats bizarre[emoji33]
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sj
Staff member
Northwest Arkansas
Great fun reading you all's war stories! Here is the link to where to get the book. http://maineauthorspublishing.com/gary-dumond-remembers/
sj
sj
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
Earl, My Beaver experience is minimal. I have a friend who had a Beaver that he bought from Kenmore and had it installed on Wipline amphibs. With two on board it was nose heavy in the water. So much so that the bows plowed at low speeds. I built a ballast box filled with lead shot which was bolted to the tail wheel bulkhead to get the CG in a reasonable spot. I also figured out that cracking the flaps trick which made a big difference in cruise by moving the center of lift aft. Who would have thought that a plane would cruise about 10-15 mph faster with the flaps down a bit. Are you saying that the tail heavy Beavers were tail heavy because of the way you loaded them, or was it to do with some sort of rigging situation? How was the stabilizer trimmed more leading edge up or down? What was the shimming supposed to correct?
BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
Indeed looking back it was. I was a product of p poor training in that aircraft. A bit less than 300 hrs (I just looked it up) and all but 20 on floats with loads. But that what I was told by the check pilot...run it at 30 unless in a jam. By the time a jam pops up it's too late sometimes. The lack FM was a contributing factor and none was available like would be in 5 min on Google. No matter, survived and learned to fly the wing and CG. Might be some good came of that later.
It was N7023 and still flys locally counting wildlife for the Game bios. I was Fish so maybe that counted for some extra beginner's luck.
Gary
CenterHillAg
PATRON
Texas Coast
Sounds like my first year in a 450 Ag Cat. 30/2050 all day in the humid Tx heat, staggering around making 3 mile turns with a 225 gal load. Learned more in 500 hrs about flying the wing than I’ll ever get, good experience. After talking to other operators I started running 31/2150 loaded, cutting to 30/2050 around half a load, easier on the plane and my sanity. I think I’m in heaven helping a friend when flying his 600 Cat, tons of power.
P.S. ever heard a 1340 spinning at 2500? It’s... interesting.
P.S. ever heard a 1340 spinning at 2500? It’s... interesting.
TurboBeaver
Registered User
Northern Maine
Pete,
It is not a published fact. But when I worked at Kenmore it was common knowledge that Bill Peters was not happy with Dehavilands horizontal rigging. They machined a new piece they installed to change that refered as "shimming the tail........ Seams the roof skins and some others are heavier on military Beavers than Canadian models ( controls are backwards as well) anyway everyone seams to agree after Kenmore goes thru one it will fly " tail high" compared to how it flew before.
Gary if you could fly the Beaver at 30" loaded. You must know the wing very very well!!! Good for you. I had trouble sometimes even at 36.5" !!!!! [emoji6]
The old Beaver trick was just before you hit the trees.........overboost it to FULL power (40") and pull the prop control all the way out!!!!! Then push it back all the way ahead before it compleately despools the engine!!! Unreal kick in the as+ ........ Saved me three times I would have never made it![emoji15] [emoji15]
Could have blown a jug right off the base but it never did when I did it.
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BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
Power corrupts, and power flying might be worse in masking the wing's behavior. Cub pilots with flaps and power are truly blessed. I had a couple and a PA-12-180 so I know well. Slam, bam, and we're flying thank you. Later flew F&G's 185s 5K+ which is quite spirited.
The stock Beaver's wing is good but will stall if provoked but that was well practiced especially on floats. I see them now with all manner of aerodynamic enhancements. I'm no expert with them...far from that.
I was paid to freight field camps and fish catch stuff. The brief DHC-2 ops were considered another tool like boats by management. The flying and all training was 95% on my dime except for 10 years later annual check rides and a safety survival meeting. By then I also had discovered flight manuals to be of some value but too late for the DHC-2.
Rivers were a challenge in the wind but the lakes we went to in Northern Alaska were large and not that high. But anyone today that fails to practice no-flap partial power ops isn't doing themselves a favor when later needed.
All in the rearview mirror now.
Gary
The stock Beaver's wing is good but will stall if provoked but that was well practiced especially on floats. I see them now with all manner of aerodynamic enhancements. I'm no expert with them...far from that.
I was paid to freight field camps and fish catch stuff. The brief DHC-2 ops were considered another tool like boats by management. The flying and all training was 95% on my dime except for 10 years later annual check rides and a safety survival meeting. By then I also had discovered flight manuals to be of some value but too late for the DHC-2.
Rivers were a challenge in the wind but the lakes we went to in Northern Alaska were large and not that high. But anyone today that fails to practice no-flap partial power ops isn't doing themselves a favor when later needed.
All in the rearview mirror now.
Gary
mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
I was checked out in the Beaver by Jack Corey, a somewhat crusty veteran of many hours in deHavilland aircraft. After the first day of the checkout, I wandered through the maintenance hangar on Lake Hood, and our Chief of Maintenance, Jerry Lawhorne, called me over to his desk. He said "When you get done getting trained fly the Beaver by that check pilot, you come talk to me, and I'll tell you how I want MY engine run."
So, after the checkout, I went and spent a couple hours with Jerry reviewing how he wanted me to run that engine. One of the things he told me was this: "If you are ever on takeoff from a confined area, and you're looking at trees in the top of your windshield, and you wreck my airplane, I'd better find knuckle prints in what's left of the windshield, from shoving that throttle all the way to the stop." "But, if you shove that throttle lever all the way to the stop, then cycle the prop lever for an extra boost, and that all gets you over the obstacle, then once you've cleaned your underwear out, you give me a call and fess up, and I'll tell you what we're going to have to do with MY engine."
A couple years later, I landed in Karluk Lake in mid winter. The lake was partially frozen, but there was open water around Camp Island, which is where we needed to go, so I landed. My co conspirator took a little longer to finish his task than planned, and when we got back in the plane and I taxiied to warm the engine and reposition for takeoff, the ice had moved with a wind that'd come up while we were on the water.
As I turned around to takeoff and pushed the power up, it took me a little while to realize that ice was a LOT closer than it had been when we landed.....and I had more load now. And, by then I wasn't sure I'd stop. So, throttle all the way to the stop. With cool temps and buckets of power (the prop on this airplane was a full foot longer than legal) the plane leaped out of the water and I reduced back to METO power.
Next day, I called Jerry and fessed up. He asked me how much MP I'd pulled and how long. I reported a solid 43 inches, and maybe two minutes.
His response was "No problem, just don't do that again unless you're really desperate."
I said "Hey Jerry, if 43 inches is okay, why does the Flight Manual limit power to 36.5?" His response was he'd forward me a book to read.
Couple days later I received a book in the mail. It was a Pratt and Whitney R-985 maintenance and overhaul manual. With it was a note from Jerry, which read: "See what the engine manufacturer says about max power".
That book was huge, and I spent hours looking for that information. Finally gave up, and called Jerry. I said what am I missing? His response: "The engine manufacturer doesn't specify limits on that engine. Power limits are an airframe manufacturer's deal. In other words, don't sweat it, but if you exceed deHavilland's recommendations again, call me and we'll talk about it."
I flew that airplane a few more years, and never needed to shove that lever to the windshield again. But, what a fantastic workhorse of an airplane. I too was taught to crack some flaps for cruise (airplane was on 4580 amphibious floats), which worked great. N765 was a civilian Beaver out of Downsview to the government, brand new.
It broke my heart when they took that airplane away from me, sold it and replaced it with a brand new 206 amphib......
:roll:
MTV
So, after the checkout, I went and spent a couple hours with Jerry reviewing how he wanted me to run that engine. One of the things he told me was this: "If you are ever on takeoff from a confined area, and you're looking at trees in the top of your windshield, and you wreck my airplane, I'd better find knuckle prints in what's left of the windshield, from shoving that throttle all the way to the stop." "But, if you shove that throttle lever all the way to the stop, then cycle the prop lever for an extra boost, and that all gets you over the obstacle, then once you've cleaned your underwear out, you give me a call and fess up, and I'll tell you what we're going to have to do with MY engine."
A couple years later, I landed in Karluk Lake in mid winter. The lake was partially frozen, but there was open water around Camp Island, which is where we needed to go, so I landed. My co conspirator took a little longer to finish his task than planned, and when we got back in the plane and I taxiied to warm the engine and reposition for takeoff, the ice had moved with a wind that'd come up while we were on the water.
As I turned around to takeoff and pushed the power up, it took me a little while to realize that ice was a LOT closer than it had been when we landed.....and I had more load now. And, by then I wasn't sure I'd stop. So, throttle all the way to the stop. With cool temps and buckets of power (the prop on this airplane was a full foot longer than legal) the plane leaped out of the water and I reduced back to METO power.
Next day, I called Jerry and fessed up. He asked me how much MP I'd pulled and how long. I reported a solid 43 inches, and maybe two minutes.
His response was "No problem, just don't do that again unless you're really desperate."
I said "Hey Jerry, if 43 inches is okay, why does the Flight Manual limit power to 36.5?" His response was he'd forward me a book to read.
Couple days later I received a book in the mail. It was a Pratt and Whitney R-985 maintenance and overhaul manual. With it was a note from Jerry, which read: "See what the engine manufacturer says about max power".
That book was huge, and I spent hours looking for that information. Finally gave up, and called Jerry. I said what am I missing? His response: "The engine manufacturer doesn't specify limits on that engine. Power limits are an airframe manufacturer's deal. In other words, don't sweat it, but if you exceed deHavilland's recommendations again, call me and we'll talk about it."
I flew that airplane a few more years, and never needed to shove that lever to the windshield again. But, what a fantastic workhorse of an airplane. I too was taught to crack some flaps for cruise (airplane was on 4580 amphibious floats), which worked great. N765 was a civilian Beaver out of Downsview to the government, brand new.
It broke my heart when they took that airplane away from me, sold it and replaced it with a brand new 206 amphib......
:roll:MTV
mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
Jack was a classic, no doubt. One of the lessons he conveyed to me was to lower the nose on a deHavilland airplane if it's slowing....either on approach or climb. They fly nose down with flaps deployed. He really emphasized that, and gave me a bunch of scenarios of that type during my check out. That evening, I asked Jack over a pint why he emphasized that so much. His response was that he'd wrecked an Otter full of lumber by pulling instead of pushing after takeoff.
I'd had an annual done in ANC on the Beaver a couple years later, and it was Friday afternoon when the crew pushed it out. Jack came up and asked if he could ride down to Kodiak with me.....his daughter was living there at the time, I believe. I was happy to have the company.
Heading out from Homer for Kodiak, the ceiling was about 1100 and there was a strong west wind blowing in Shelikof Strait. I was cruising along at about 500 feet, and Jack was acting really nervous. He had a lot more experience than I did, so that made me nervous.
Finally, I asked Jack what the problem was. His response: "Climb up a little higher, will you?" I pointed out that a) legally, we were required to maintain at least 500 feet below the lowest cloud layer, which was about where we were. And, b) Climbing another 500 feet higher would simply mean we'd crash a few hundred feet further out into the Strait.
His response was a classic: "a) I don't give a **** about cloud clearance requirements, and b) I just want the damn waves to LOOK smaller."
I climbed up and put the fin in the overcast. He still looked nervous. Turns out he'd never liked flying single engine airplanes over big water. Like anyone does?
Jack was a good friend and a class act.
MTV
Yep, good man. When I was a new co-pilot on a Turbine Commander out of Lonely working the NPR-A, I had a captain who had me doing the weight and balance one day after he told me we were going to top the fuel off. I ran the numbers and dutifully told him we couldn’t top off because we’d be a few hundred pounds over gross. I never forgot his next statement: “Son, these airplanes will fly a little over gross, but they won’t fly for s**it without gas.” Turns out he was right, and probably saved my butt a few times. (Not advocating flying over gross)...... Good mentors were, and are, important!
BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
Well I guess my takeaway from limited Beaver flying was if the water was too small at low power then don't go there. Not sure why the low power was noted as the engines were cheap. I did try the MP redline some but I would have done better if I'd known more. 30-32" MP isn't much on takeoff.
This is for those that will: https://washingtonseaplanepilots.org/resources/Seaplane POHs/DHC-2-Beaver-POH.pdf
Gary
This is for those that will: https://washingtonseaplanepilots.org/resources/Seaplane POHs/DHC-2-Beaver-POH.pdf
Gary
TurboBeaver
Registered User
Northern Maine
Mike please dont reference Shelikof Strait.............. I am still having nitemares of "bad trips" we used to have trying to fly overloaded Beavers
across there to get to Kodiak from the
Peninsula....... Couple hundred feet, HUGE waves and screaming winds off
Cape Douglas trying to knock the fillings out of your teeth[emoji36]
Sweating your fuel guage watching the gps reading 65mph into those headwinds.
Shelikof Strait is no place for anyone when its nasty and that is normal.
E
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mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
Yes, I used to say that the Boogie Man was alive and well, and that he lives in the Barren Islands. Seems like you could have great weather in Kodiak and Homer but it’d be major ugly out there in no mans land.
I don’t recall how many times I did that crossing, but I’m happy I don’t have to any more.
MTV
I don’t recall how many times I did that crossing, but I’m happy I don’t have to any more.
MTV
hotrod180
FRIEND
Port Townsend, WA
Was he a homebuilder?
Here's a pic of the one-off "Lawhorn Kee-Bird" from an aold 1996 issue of Sport Pilot & Ultralights magazine.
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mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
CamTom12
Registered User
Huntsville, AL
I’d love to hear it if you’ve got the time. Looks like an interesting airplane.
Yes
