mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
Glenn,
Read up on an accident involving one John Denver. The builder of that airplane was sued down to parade rest......by a very wealthy family. To teach a lesson, perhaps?
MTV
Just Curious
- Thread starter flyrite
- Start date
Glenn,
Read up on an accident involving one John Denver. The builder of that airplane was sued down to parade rest......by a very wealthy family. To teach a lesson, perhaps?
MTV
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
Earl, The example which I gave was on a new airplane on it's delivery flight to it's initial owner during the 1950s. It may have been the first Helio on floats. That, I'm not certain of. That accident took place in western Mass or NY state. Old in years airplanes are a different issue which boils down to maintenance, usage and the environment in which it is used. I don't know why, but strut less high wings always made me suspicious while low wings do not. I recall during the early 60s converting a military Cessna 195 to civilian use there was an AD note which required installing steel bars across the center section connecting the two wings. Perhaps there needs to be something of this sort on the old Helios?
Farmboy
MEMBER
Middlebury, VT
Which is insanity, and leads into problems with NTSB reports.
In a majority of GA accidents the report is concluded with "pilot error" as being the cause, without even listing any contributing factors. But yet somehow, in Denver's crash without cameras, data recorders, or other hard data, they conclude that the cause was due to him "likely" attempting to reach the fuel selector, because he would have "likely" pushed on a rudder pedal, thereby causing loss of control. Why is that report so subjective?
None the less, until our society is restricted from being so litigious, its the world we live in.
Southern Aero
SPONSOR
kcco/1ga2
sky
I remember John Roberts and Larry Montgomery dealing with the carry-through AD ............ late 70's? The plane they were talking about had light previous damage from trees while on floats and thot it might have been a contributing factor. John's son Brant just passed about a year ago and would have been a great source for more exacting info as he worked with John until he died. He gave me all of John's Helio records years ago and some info might be in there. I remember John and Larry having new or re-worked trussed carry through sections in hand and having to deal with getting them installed. I was in my early 20's then and mostly chasing girls, race cars and motorcycles. Airplanes were on the back burner then................
I remember John Roberts and Larry Montgomery dealing with the carry-through AD ............ late 70's? The plane they were talking about had light previous damage from trees while on floats and thot it might have been a contributing factor. John's son Brant just passed about a year ago and would have been a great source for more exacting info as he worked with John until he died. He gave me all of John's Helio records years ago and some info might be in there. I remember John and Larry having new or re-worked trussed carry through sections in hand and having to deal with getting them installed. I was in my early 20's then and mostly chasing girls, race cars and motorcycles. Airplanes were on the back burner then................
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skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
Southern Aero,
My rather distant association with Helio dates from the early 60s when the production facility was in Pittsburgh Kansas and there was an experimental facility at Hanscom Field in Bedford Mass. This was during the time that the Twin Courier was in production. I worked at their original location, the old Canton Mass airport. My two bosses were ex Helio engineers who had gone to work on their own developing a twin engine amphibian. My coworker was an ex Helio mechanic who had worked for Helio at Canton. We utilized some of Helio's equipment for parts forming.
My rather distant association with Helio dates from the early 60s when the production facility was in Pittsburgh Kansas and there was an experimental facility at Hanscom Field in Bedford Mass. This was during the time that the Twin Courier was in production. I worked at their original location, the old Canton Mass airport. My two bosses were ex Helio engineers who had gone to work on their own developing a twin engine amphibian. My coworker was an ex Helio mechanic who had worked for Helio at Canton. We utilized some of Helio's equipment for parts forming.
BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
Re Helios: Rode in one on wheels a few times as passenger with Wright's out of Fairbanks in the 1970's. Some doing sheep surveys on calm days but most was going to and from the Hughes area in the Fall to catch Sheefish for the hatchery for a few years. Hap Hanlon (SP?) owned the plane we flew in I was told and Indian Mountain near Hughes makes weather and gets bumpy. He'd pull back on the controls after every big bump and slow down, then speed up. I asked him why in pre-headset days and all I recall was stress on wings and plane didn't like turbulence. Cruise was 120's. Not sure what he slowed to.
One accident report discussing maneuvering speed and wear: http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2001/a01p0203/a01p0203.pdf
Gary
One accident report discussing maneuvering speed and wear: http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2001/a01p0203/a01p0203.pdf
Gary
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
This is becoming more troubling. If my former employers were still living it would be interesting to discus the wing separations with them. They performed the structural engineering on the Helio wings.
TurboBeaver
Registered User
Northern Maine
Pete,
You are a wealth of information and always interested in safety. Sad to think someone else may have to kill another
load of inocent folks before a very obvious problem gets looked into deeper.......:evil:
The Helio is a wonderful airplane but how the wing attaches to the airframe has always been a Controversial subject; for a long time. I think if
they were ever build them again they would want to Compleately redesign the attachment system! Like seriously consider a STRUT.
We had two of them at Valhalla Lodge. A 250 n 295. I loved the little one on wheels.
It brought new meaning to " landing slow"
Kirk wrecked it in a BAD crosswind behind the lodge when most folks wouldnt have tryed it with a Cherokee 6..........
Bob Curtis gave us both "1 hr" in them and said " your both good to go" . I am thinking more like 15/20 hrs would be alot more like it. Kirk told me it took him a couple hundred hours to start to feel comfortable
In the Helio.
With no disrespect towards Otto C. Koppen. I sure think this design of how he attached the wing :will over time tarnish his legacy.
E
You are a wealth of information and always interested in safety. Sad to think someone else may have to kill another
load of inocent folks before a very obvious problem gets looked into deeper.......:evil:
The Helio is a wonderful airplane but how the wing attaches to the airframe has always been a Controversial subject; for a long time. I think if
they were ever build them again they would want to Compleately redesign the attachment system! Like seriously consider a STRUT.
We had two of them at Valhalla Lodge. A 250 n 295. I loved the little one on wheels.
It brought new meaning to " landing slow"
Kirk wrecked it in a BAD crosswind behind the lodge when most folks wouldnt have tryed it with a Cherokee 6..........
Bob Curtis gave us both "1 hr" in them and said " your both good to go" . I am thinking more like 15/20 hrs would be alot more like it. Kirk told me it took him a couple hundred hours to start to feel comfortable
In the Helio.
With no disrespect towards Otto C. Koppen. I sure think this design of how he attached the wing :will over time tarnish his legacy.
E
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mike mcs repair
Registered User
chugiak AK
anyone got a picture or an AD to link here... not familiar with it..
wonder if the erosion is just from wallowed out hole hammering, like the rear beaver attach fittings on the wing spar?
TurboBeaver
Registered User
Northern Maine
The Branhams are the experts on them Mike. We had ALOT of problems with the geared engine in the H 295 .
Clyinders every 5/600 hrs was common. A new IO 550 ; would be a huge improvement for the Helio maintenance wise.
Clyinders every 5/600 hrs was common. A new IO 550 ; would be a huge improvement for the Helio maintenance wise.
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skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
I did the first annual on a new Lake LA-4-200 and found some black powder stains in the right wheel well at the rear wing attach fitting. This is a one bolt attachment. When I pulled the bolt I found that the fitting which was attached to the fuselage was shaped like a figure 8. Apparently when the wings were installed and the hole was line drilled the wing wasn't up tight against the fuselage so they redrilled the hole. Needless to say the factory quickly gave me a new fitting to install.
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
The reason that they used the geared engine was so that they could use a large diameter slow turning prop for low speed thrust. While the 550 would be a good idea the prop tip speed would be higher than desired. Their use of the O-540 was an attempt to eliminate the geared engine and it's higher cost which as I understood it wasn't as good a performer and didn't sell as well.
The first Helio was a modified PA-17 Vagabond. http://www.acmp.com/blog/helio-courier-from-modified-vagabond-to-vietnams-cia-stallion.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helio_Courier I knew the original test pilot, Jack Phillips who was the head of the sales department for Wiggins for many years.
I watched a wing go on a Helio once. The one piece wing drops over 4 big studs and 4 big nuts are run down, big time. The mechanic had a huge wrench with an extention and yelled down twice to have the torque spec verified. He was giving it nearly all he had. So the main bolts are in tension(not shear) and highly preloaded. Lovely.
Southern Aero
SPONSOR
kcco/1ga2
I beg to differ........... If I can get this image out of the parts manual to go in here............. The attach bolts are in double shear which is usually preferred ....... Regardless, it was the carry-thru truss that was the problem in the early days not the attach method. Damage history, corrosion could surely contribute to other failures. The upper attach method seems a little unorthodox but would only be a factor with negative loads. The wings are left and right, not one piece.
Attachments
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BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
Previous Helio info from here: http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?37451-Helio-Courier
My experience was as a passenger and tail pusher. Land on soft one-way gravel bar like we did and turning 180 wasn't an option. Lift-push-pry with drift wood-repeat. No approved tundra tires. Then I started flying myself and another into the Koyukuk River Sheefish camp with a Scout so we could avoid getting stuck with the Helio if the water came up and flooded the bar.
Gary
My experience was as a passenger and tail pusher. Land on soft one-way gravel bar like we did and turning 180 wasn't an option. Lift-push-pry with drift wood-repeat. No approved tundra tires. Then I started flying myself and another into the Koyukuk River Sheefish camp with a Scout so we could avoid getting stuck with the Helio if the water came up and flooded the bar.
Gary
Yeah, the 7 and 8 parts. I don't see anything else holding the fuselage up. 4 vertical bolts, threads in(a whole lot of) tension. Not a problem, it just doesn't give me the warm fuzzies, makes you wonder about other decisions. I didn't see them put the wing together, and I assumed it was one piece.
Unless you’re VANS accountant, I’m not sure how anyone would know about their “assets”.
My understanding is this; if there is an injury or worse, the lawyers are going to hunt until they find a trail right to you’re front door, especially if you have any money at all. They will take your coat too if possible.
Not only do we have the “entitled” to contend with, we have the “not responsible” as well.
Roddy
