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Thread: Remodeling a Hangar: Suggestions Requested

  1. #1
    WindOnHisNose's Avatar
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    Post Remodeling a Hangar: Suggestions Requested

    Julie and I have just purchased a home on an airpark, complete with a 60 x 60 hangar. The hangar was built by a good friend who recently passed away. He tiled the floor with linoleum, sheetrocked and insulated the hangar, and it looked like this one year ago...
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    Unfortunately, our friend developed dementia, moving to a memory care unit and his dear wife was left caretaking for the home and hangar. She received a bill from the water department for 500K and when she had the hangar looked at they found the heater had failed, resulting in freezing and bursting of a water line. They had to have all the sheetrock and insulation removed in order to dry things up and now it looks like this...
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    Obviously, we were really sad to see such a beautiful hangar damaged so badly. Trying to turn lemons into lemonade, we are now working to improve, insulate and recover the walls, and to do something different with the floor.

    I would appreciate insight into your thoughts regarding the following:

    1. Insulation type: Blow in (I understand that it is more "sticky" now, with less settling) vs foam
    2. Floor treatment: We plan to have the linoleum removed, diamond grinding to smooth finish. At that point we will epoxy, I think, but yesterday a contractor told us that often the grinding down to a glossy finish may be better (and cheaper) than epoxy. Also, if we epoxy this, what specifically should we ask for.
    3. Lighting: We will remove the fluorescent lighting and replace with LED. Any recommendations with regard to this?
    4. Bathroom: A toilet is in place, but we are adding a shower...fiberglass vs tiled vs cultured. We hope to be a stopping place for supercub folks passing through

    Any other tips/suggestions will be appreciated.

    Lino Lakes Airpark is just to the northeast of Class D at KANE.
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    The grass airstrip is a tad under 3100 ft long and is 130 ft wide at its narrowest aspect. The grass is beautiful, well-drained.
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    We look forward to moving in there sometime this winter, but are readying the hangar for visitors in the meantime!

    Randy
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    Me? I’d talk to a local foam guy. Flash coat with urethane and fill with isonene. Or whatever’s the go-to in your area. I had all the old style 8’ fluorescents in my company building converted to LED tubes. The tombstones in the fixtures had to be changed but that was fairly simple. Much better light, much less electricity to run them. I’d prefer a polished floor and would accept some staining. Epoxy chips and looks like crap. Sealed concrete is slicker than owl snot when wet so I wouldn’t choose that, either. Maybe add a hoist if you have enough ceiling height? What kind of heat in the hangar?

    Congrats on the new house. We’re in a parallel universe in that respect.

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    jrussl's Avatar
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    Congrats Randy and Julie!

    Some of my experiences from finishing off my 50 x 50.

    I like the spray in foam for insulation. It's a bit expensive so I only put in 1" and then topped it with 6" batt. What I like is that it really sealed up the hangar and prevents air infiltration. I heat the hangar all winter in Madison WI and have very low heating bills. On warm days, such as yesterday at 88 dF, I always get comments from other hangar owners on how much cooler my hangar is. Not sure what the cost may be in your area but in 2009 I paid $2k for 1" of thickness on all three walls and the hangar door. Walls are 12.5 feet tall and 50 feet wide each. The going rate back then seemed to be $0.80 per square foot per inch of thickness.

    I am not a fan of epoxy floors as I have seen way too many times where they have bubbled up due to moisture. I also have experience with them in factories and have spend in excess of $400k to do the floors in epoxy and have watched them get beat up in short order. We eventually moved away from epoxy in the factories and did the diamond polishing. Way less expensive and much more durable. Done right, I think they look every bit as good as epoxy too. You may even consider staining the floor. I see it in lots of newer restaurants and like the way it looks.

    Good luck on your project.

    Jeff
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    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Congratulations Randy on living the dream in your own hangar. The "best " way to make a hangar beautiful is to fill it with as many airplanes as you can and you won't notice all the imperfections

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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    No skylights. They always leak. Don't most water departments forgive exorbitant bills caused by undetected leaks? I signed the paper for my neighbor where I found a bust pipe in his hangar and I repaired it.
    You can't get there from here. You have to go over yonder and start from there.
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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Don’t paint the floor. All the stores here have ripped up all the flooring and just ground and stained their floors.


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org

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    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Randy,

    When you re-do the inside of the building put fiberglass in between the studs. On the outside of the studs put 1" of insulation. The 1" of insulation on the outside of the studs keeps the thermal energy that is passed through the studs out of the building. I like sheet metal siding...light grey or white instead of drywall.

    Tim
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    How is the ceiling insulated and to what R value? What about the bifold door? Throwing big money at the walls may not make sense if the ceiling and door aren't up the that standard.
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    1st thing i would do is call the water department and put a limit on the monthly bill, no demand it, and see what they say, tell them if the bill goes over say 800 bucks, just a figure, you want your water shut off. probably get it in writing. 500k thats nuts, where are these people or the neighbors? are you sure it was that much? How long did that go on?? not helping your question but that sortve burned me. 500 thousand of water would fill a ocean wouldnt it? but on the bright side you shouldnt have to worry about the neighbors bothering you.
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    If you're ever planning to snowbird you should add a water shutoff and a drain-down now. Turn the water off, open the drain valve, toss some anti freeze in the P traps, and don't worry about it freezing up if the heat fails.
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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Lots of good advice, only thing I would add is a tankless water heater if you have gas.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

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    mvivion's Avatar
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    I like drywall on walls. Not as much echo as metal all around. I’d also stay away from spray foam against the outer walls......in a cold climate, you want the vapor barrier on the INSIDE of the insulation. Putting fiberglass inside the spray foam is an invitation to vapor problems......I learned that the hard way. Fortunately the builder was a stand up guy and fixed it.

    id consider blow in insulation in the walls. With a tight vapor barrier and drywall inside. Drywall also allows you to paint to taste, and it’s easier to hang those photos and calendars from SC.org......

    MTV
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    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    and it’s easier to hang those photos and calendars from SC.org......

    MTV
    MTV...Magnets. Lots of magnets.

    You should also add space for a cot. In case you are in trouble with the Boss (Mrs. C) you have a nice place to sleep in your dog house.

  14. #14
    WindOnHisNose's Avatar
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    Thanks very much for the suggestions.

    Insulation: I have been advised by the insulation company that "bat" insulation is not an option, given the spacing between 2x4's. The blow in insulation is their recommendation as the lesser expensive approach compared to foam. With blow in, they would put up the vapor barrier first, then blow the "sticky" insulation into each section. Apparently the vapor barrier is also sticky, making settling a non-issue. The insulation will be 9" cavity, rendering R35. Yes, Stewart, the ceiling has been retained, with 12" of blow in insulation. The hangar door also has been insulated. Dick (the builder of the hangar) was quite fastidious when it came to the insulation. Tim, there are 2x6 perlins running horizontally (I think you can see them in the photo), and the blow in will fill that space. Mike, they told me that if we foam that foam acts as a vapor barrier and there would be no additional "vapor barrier" required...in fact, he thinks putting up metal panels or sheetrock will be suboptimal in that they would act as a vapor barrier and cause problems. Jeff, I think that foaming and then putting in bat insulation will be a problem due to the bat insulation acting as a vapor barrier of sorts (as MTV suggests).

    Water Heater: Steve, an "on-demand" water heater is exactly what we will be putting in. This is a perfect application for this, I agree. I have this in my workshop at our current home and it has been terrific.

    Wall covering: MTV, I agree that the metal will make it into an echo chamber, of sorts. I am getting pretty deaf (perhaps you can relate) and echos really won't bother me much. I like the clean look of the metal siding and it will be pretty easy to put up, relative to sheetrock, and it will not require taping/painting.

    Floor: Mike and Jeff, I think we are leaning toward your point of view on this. I don't know that I have seen a cement floor polished like our consultant suggested. You suggested "staining" the floor...would you elaborate? I am worried that if I don't put some sort of protectant on the floor (epoxy, etc) that oil stains will somehow make the underlying concrete blemished.

    I see that noone has addressed lighting. I have a couple of bids for LED lights, have been told to make sure we are getting the 5000K LED lights.

    Your comments are very helpful. Thank you.

    Randy

  15. #15
    WindOnHisNose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by behindpropellers View Post
    MTV...Magnets. Lots of magnets.

    You should also add space for a cot. In case you are in trouble with the Boss (Mrs. C) you have a nice place to sleep in your dog house.
    Tim, I am putting a shower, a toilet and heating in the hangar. Not that I have EVER been in trouble with the Boss, but I am selling this to the Boss as preparing a wonderful place for my supercub.org buddies to stop by and sit a spell... I am going to have wifi out there, too.

    Thanks for your concern for my well-being, in the remote chance that I get myself (further) in trouble

    Randy
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    WindOnHisNose's Avatar
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    Sound system: I am planning to run a sound system, stringing the wires before the insulation and closing of the walls happens. I know the metal walls will make it less pleasing from an acoustic standpoint, and will likely pour on more power (sound volume) to overcome the lousy accoustics!

    Randy
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  17. #17
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    No Tiki bar?

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  18. #18
    WindOnHisNose's Avatar
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    Stewart, Dick had two forced air systems in the hangar...one for the bigger area (that failed) and one for the enclosed workshop. We are going to replace the one that failed with one of those heaters that hang from the ceiling, not sure what to do about the one inside the workshop (which I plan to keep at a warmer temperature). Both will be fueled by natural gas.

    Randy

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    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Re lighting, I agree with 5000k. Also, I'd encourage a minimum of 100 ft candles at floor level.

    Also put LOTS of receptacles in the walls, both 120 and 240V, at about 4 ft off the floor. I used a mix of 20A and 30A, with a couple of 50A for good measure. I spaced rexeptacles at 4 ft along all walls and am glad I did so.
    Last edited by Gordon Misch; 09-05-2018 at 03:16 PM.
    Gordon

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    My SPOT: tinyurl.com/N4328M (case sensitive)
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    I chose to cover about 1000' of stained concrete because even a hint of moisture made is as slick as an ice rink. Be careful with your concrete finish choice. Ask your concrete guy where to see some different finishes.

    See post #2 for my LED light comments. I love my shop's LEDs. My new airplane place has T8 fluorescents and I'll use them until they start dimming. The good news is T8 LED tubes are common so replacing is simpler than my old shop lighting that needed the tombstones changed. What you do and how you do it may depend on what you have.

    My place also uses a unit heater. That's my preference. Turn it up, turn it down. Instant response.

    I recently visited a friend inside a SIP ( steel insulated panel) hangar. Outdoor noise like passing cars and planes were louder inside that closed hangar than if standing outside, not to mention the annoying echo while talking. I wouldn't use metal interior panels. Drywall on wood framing is much better for sound, and a quieter environment is a more comfortable environment. Now that you're in decision mode? Try to visit a few other hangars with different walls and lighting and see what you like. You probably never paid attention before. Now it matters.
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    Randy

    I used these as a guniea pig in my house garage, they work pretty well. when I get enough butter and egg money I am going to do the hangar with them as well. 3600 sq ft of your hangar would be about $9000 if you do the whole thing. They are easy to clean, although I dont know what a steady diet of gas/oil will do to them. There are a couple of high end muscle car guys close by who have a nice color pattern in their Mancave car garage. Ive not seen them in a commercial application I dont think they would have a place in a working shop, but they look nice. I will put up a pix of the garage when I get home

    https://www.garagefloor.com/product/hd-coin/

    Diamond tread as well
    https://www.garagefloor.com/product/...e-floor-tiles/

    We have a local guy that diamond polishes the local Sams club and Home Depot, WalMart. They look nice but are really slippery. Im not a big fan of Epoxy it seems to get torn up

    Plus one for the spray foam. even 1 inch makes a huge diff. Then the blown in would work well. Spray foam is pretty steady price, .85-1.00 a board foot.
    Tims idea of 1 inch foam on outside is huge, that thermal break between the studs looking at -25 and uncoupled with an inch of foam works well. We have done a couple houses this way.

    We have been using these lights, they are available on Amazon sometimes for less. when we can we wire them 240 volts, they use a lot less power. Dont know if MN has a efficiency upgrade program, but we got a lot of them for little money under that program

    https://www.warehouse-lighting.com/c...Best%20Sellers

    the led strip lights are less money, but I dont think you get the bang for the buck.

    Great fun spending your money!!!

    Jim
    Last edited by Scouter; 09-05-2018 at 03:46 PM.
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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I replaced my 8' florescent tubes with these https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 in my hanger, shop and paint booth. Better light, less power draw and last way longer. Simple install as well, just take the ballast out of the system, hot to one end and neutral to the other and you are done. Comes with the tombstones that the bulbs lock into but only had to replace one that had gotten a bit hot years ago.
    Steve Pierce

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  23. #23
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Why do they call them tombstones? I assume you mean the ceramic where the tube plugs in. I thought I knew everything but I missed that one!
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  24. #24
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I replaced my 8' florescent tubes with these https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 in my hanger, shop and paint booth. Better light, less power draw and last way longer. Simple install as well, just take the ballast out of the system, hot to one end and neutral to the other and you are done. Comes with the tombstones that the bulbs lock into but only had to replace one that had gotten a bit hot years ago.

    Do you have to pull the ballast?
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  25. #25
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    More power does not fix lousy accoustics, I.E. a metal building.

    Quote Originally Posted by WindOnHisNose View Post
    Sound system: I am planning to run a sound system, stringing the wires before the insulation and closing of the walls happens. I know the metal walls will make it less pleasing from an acoustic standpoint, and will likely pour on more power (sound volume) to overcome the lousy accoustics!

    Randy

  26. #26
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    You don't have to physically remove it. You do have to bypass it

    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    Do you have to pull the ballast?
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    Randy,

    I'm about to have a surplus sleeper sofa and matching sleeper loveseat as we cull items from the old house. Into the hangar they'll go. Probably not as much for the wandering pilot as much as for the grandson, who I suspect will rather sleep in the hangar with airplanes and dead animals than in the house.
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    mvivion's Avatar
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    Randy,

    A vapor barrier is intended to prevent moisture (vapor) from getting into insulation in the wall/ceiling. So, from the outside of a wall, for example, you have siding, then inside that is sheathing, then insulation, then vapor barrier, then interior finish.

    The problem with what you describe (if I understood you correctly) is that the spray foam will create something of a vapor barrier in the wall, but then you’re going to add more blow in insulation INSIDE (on the warm side) of the vapor barrier.

    That allows vapor from the Hangar to migrate INTO the blon in insulation. Now you have moisture in the walls.....a very bad thing.

    A vapor barrier has to be installed inside ALL insulation, or that insulation will absorb moisture, which can cause all kinds of problems, mold being high on that list.

    I went through this in Fairbanks, with almost exactly the setup you’re descibing. It took all of six or seven years before that roof was a mess. The solution was to remove the roof......the entire roof......mold knows no bounds.

    Finally, according to the Alaska State Extension office, from which I learned waaaay more about vapor barriers than I ever wanted to know, spray foam was not designed or intended to be used as a vapor barrier, since those foams can absorb SOME moisture.

    Vapor barriers in relatively warm climates are no big deal, but in Minnesota, I’d want a very good, and properly installed vapor barrier.

    you might call the state extension office and see what they have to say on the subject.

    Hers a short video on the subject: https://youtu.be/fSdD9r5K4RU

    Granted, I am paranoid on the subject, but it’s a hard earned paranoia, believe me.

    MTV
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  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    Why do they call them tombstones? I assume you mean the ceramic where the tube plugs in. I thought I knew everything but I missed that one!
    Because the original shape of the tube holders looked like old tombstones.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!
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  30. #30

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    Randy,

    Mine (new construction) is polished through 2400 grit and has a liquid densifier applied.

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    When you remove (have it done) the VCT flooring the seams often stay or shadow depending on how long it has been down and if it was lick-n-stick or mastic applied... when polished I think it’s looks cool as it leaves a subtle 12x12 pattern (those are 12x12 and not 9x9 right ?) There is a store nearby that did it, let me know if you want a pic. If you polish be sure to do it before finishing the walls.

    If you decide to paint, do a vapor transmission test FIRST.
    Last edited by OLDCROWE; 09-06-2018 at 01:37 PM.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!
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  31. #31

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    When you use urethane foam you don't add a separate vapor barrier. To do so makes a second barrier and creates a terrarium in the wall. That's what rots studs and rafters, and it was a big problem 30 years ago. It isn't a problem these days and foam is still popular in new construction.
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  32. #32

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    Are you on Natural Gas or Propane. If the later taking a look at heat pumps with gas auxiliary heat its a good approach where you get the best of both worlds. That’s what we’re replacing the Barn HVAC unit with.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

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    I did close cell spray foam...steel building...4” on the walls and six plus inches on the ceiling. 3 inches would have been sufficient somewhere way south... 5/8” green board on the walls, ceiling 1/4” exterior grade plywood, primer sealer and latex top coat...vapor barrier is the paint... in floor hydronic heat...at some point I’ll apply polyurea to the floor...using the same machine I used to apply the spray foam....so maybe two birds with one stone if you contract out the work... polyurea is the tough stuff...industrial applications which include withstanding wild men on forklifts...
    Using plywood on the ceiling...I don’t want sheet rock falling should the roof generate a water leak at some point...


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  34. #34
    Bearhawk Builder's Avatar
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    Vapor barriers are very location specific. What works somewhere else may not be what will be best for your location so the recommendation to talk to a local expert is a good one. Heat moves to cold, but in our climates that direction changes with the season. Some houses require a different approach on opposite sides of the house depending on sun or moisture exposure. Talk to a reputable local insulator or two, they'll know what's best. Around here closed cell foam has been all the rage but it's still too new to see long term effects, I'm not convinced. We've gone back to cellulose and black felt paper on the outside believe it or not, holds up much better over time in most cases. Strip a wall with Tyvek after a decade and you'll see what I mean. But again, find out what's best locally.
    LED lighting is great. Check with the local environmental agency, around here there are aggressive rebates that make the LED upgrade free or better. I did a 5000 s/f building recently and the rebate was 120%
    Tile the shower for God's sake, I hate plastic. If you get in a bind I'll come do it for you, not kidding!

    By the way I like epoxy coatings for the floor. Done right (and that's the key) it lasts forever
    Last edited by Bearhawk Builder; 09-05-2018 at 07:01 PM.
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  35. #35

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    50-60 inch big screen in the lounge, along with a knockout stereo system.

  36. #36
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrussl View Post

    I am not a fan of epoxy floors....
    I'll second that thought. Some of them can be painfully slippery when wet.

    And grinding metal or, heaven forbid, welding over one sort of ruins the charm.
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    We put these in our hazelnut cleaning plant last year and I loved them so much I put them in my new shop I just built.
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  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by PIPER J5.5 View Post
    We put these in our hazelnut cleaning plant last year and I loved them so much I put them in my new shop I just built.
    Those are excellent lights, Randy if you add fixtures and you will likely want to unless you add diffusers to those to spread the light more horizontally do your best to find lights rated as “Low Bay” they have an illumination pattern that will work much better when the fixture height is below 15 feet, the other option is high bays on closer spacing. The good news is you have attic access so wiring will not be ugly.
    Last edited by OLDCROWE; 09-06-2018 at 07:49 AM.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!
    Likes WindOnHisNose liked this post

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by PIPER J5.5 View Post
    We put these in our hazelnut cleaning plant last year and I loved them so much I put them in my new shop I just built.
    Do you happen to remember the cost per unit?

  40. #40
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    Since the walls are still uncovered, it would be a good time to run air pressure lines and connectors to areas that might be convenient.

    Jim
    Likes mike mcs repair, WindOnHisNose liked this post

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