Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 47

Thread: K2 Beaver Fatal accident at Denali

  1. #1
    WindOnHisNose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Corcoran MN
    Posts
    3,937
    Post Thanks / Like

    K2 Beaver Fatal accident at Denali

    https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/avia...or-passengers/

    I just received a call from a friend up there. Last I heard RandyK was their chief pilot at K2. I am very saddened to hear about this.

    Randy

  2. #2
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    chugiak AK
    Posts
    9,185
    Post Thanks / Like

  3. #3
    Iflylower's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Memphis, TN
    Posts
    1,341
    Post Thanks / Like
    I knew the pilot. It wasn’t randy. Sad for all. Prayers for the wife and kids of the pilot and relatives of the European customers. RIP
    "There are three things in life that people like to stare at: a flowing stream, a crackling fire and a Zamboni clearing the ice." Charlie Brown

    Please Join and Support the RAF! http://www.theraf.org/

  4. #4

    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Talkeetna Alaska
    Posts
    216
    Post Thanks / Like
    I was chief pilot, but got promoted to line pilot a couple years ago. We have a fine, competent, younger man, Chris Wilson, as Chief Pilot now.

    Yes, a very sad time. It is still very early in the event, and the recovery is stalled by the weather and even when it clears, the location is such that it will be a risky operation at best.

    Thanks to everyone for prayers and consideration.

    Randy Kilbourn, K2 Aviation
    Thanks TulBiplane, SJ, nightflyer thanked for this post
    Likes mike mcs repair liked this post

  5. #5
    aktango58's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    18AA
    Posts
    8,619
    Post Thanks / Like
    You all be careful out there please. Lost more this year than we should. Lots of grief going around up here.

    Randy, hope the rest of the year is better, my best to all you guys.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
    Likes mike mcs repair liked this post

  6. #6
    nanook's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    northern alaska
    Posts
    1,573
    Post Thanks / Like
    I’m curious if K2 is running terrain GPS in their planes?

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Fairbanks
    Posts
    855
    Post Thanks / Like
    It does not matter now why this happened all that should matter is that this did happen and that there is a tremendous amount of sympathy and heartfelt grief.

    Best of wishes to those who have past, and heartfelt thanks for those that have already done so much to help the people who are dealing with the events that have transpired.

  8. #8
    txpacer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Iowa Park, TX
    Posts
    428
    Post Thanks / Like
    Understanding why is at the root of accident investigation and mishap prevention. Thoughts and prayers are meaningless if you can't keep it from happening again. Why it happened is key.
    Likes 40m, windy, kestrel, CenterHillAg liked this post

  9. #9
    nanook's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    northern alaska
    Posts
    1,573
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by txpacer View Post
    Understanding why is at the root of accident investigation and mishap prevention. Thoughts and prayers are meaningless if you can't keep it from happening again. Why it happened is key.
    Couldn't agree more... was the aircraft not properly equipped to avoid a CFIT accident? Many Questions remain...
    Likes 40m, mike mcs repair, sjohnson liked this post

  10. #10

    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Vermont USA
    Posts
    394
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    I’m curious if K2 is running terrain GPS in their planes?

    Even with a decent terrain system, just how accurate is the terrain mapping there? From what I see he was not much more than 20' from clearing the crest and even if the terrain mapping was accurate, how much of what he hit was just snow above the peak.

    This whole situation is truly very sad, and many feel remorse that the bodies can not be recovered but I have a gut feeling that a week of sun on that plane, it might just come down on it's own which will then allow salvage and recovery.
    Likes Redwagon liked this post

  11. #11
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    chugiak AK
    Posts
    9,185
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    Even with a decent terrain system, just how accurate is the terrain mapping there? From what I see he was not much more than 20' from clearing the crest and even if the terrain mapping was accurate, how much of what he hit was just snow above the peak.

    This whole situation is truly very sad, and many feel remorse that the bodies can not be recovered but I have a gut feeling that a week of sun on that plane, it might just come down on it's own which will then allow salvage and recovery.

    unfinished..
    https://www.adn.com/aviation/article...nd/2014/10/15/

  12. #12

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Illinois & Wisconsin
    Posts
    549
    Post Thanks / Like
    The accident, and others like it, are tragic to all--those who were injured or lost their lives, their families and friends, and those of us who read and care about all things aviation.

    But the big issue here isn't about the need for better mapping. Rather it must be better training and decision making skills. IFR conditions along a sightseeing VFR flight path should have stopped the doomed flight from ever taking off in the first place. Flight into IMC requires a flight plan and there are minimum safe altitudes for the filed route. It's fine if a pilot wants to risk his own life flying into known hazardous conditions, but doing so with a plane full of innocent passengers is, at best, reckless homicide and, at worst, simply murder.

  13. #13

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    3,389
    Post Thanks / Like
    ac·ci·dent
    ˈaksədənt/
    noun

    • 1.
      an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.
      [COLOR=#878787 !important]"he had an accident at the factory"
    • synonyms: mishap, misadventure, unfortunate incident, mischance, misfortune, disaster, tragedy, catastrophe, calamity;technicalcasualty
      "an accident at work"









    • 2.
      an event that happens by chance or that is without apparent or deliberate cause.
      [COLOR=#878787 !important]"the pregnancy was an accident"[/COLOR]
      synonyms: (mere) chance, coincidence, twist of fate, freak; More






    [/COLOR]
    Likes CharlieN liked this post

  14. #14

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Anchorage
    Posts
    419
    Post Thanks / Like
    Reading that mapping article makes me wonder about the flight in May with the student pilot who flew into the hillside above Portage.
    If the GPS information was incorrect, and he flew into the crud for a minute or two over Portage Pass, I could see him thinking he'd break out over Whittier. If he relied on that GPS map / data for a quick transition, did that play a role ? I wonder how accurate the Garmin data is over that area.

    There is a difference between a kid with 25 hours and someone 45 with 4,000+ hours in decision making too. A puffy cloud doesn't always make it IMC, but against a snowfield in flat light ? Really depends on your past experiences, eyeballs, and sharpness at that moment in time.
    Thanks wacodriver thanked for this post
    Likes mike mcs repair, Bill.Brine, kestrel liked this post

  15. #15
    mvivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Bozeman,MT
    Posts
    9,852
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Heinrich View Post
    The accident, and others like it, are tragic to all--those who were injured or lost their lives, their families and friends, and those of us who read and care about all things aviation.

    But the big issue here isn't about the need for better mapping. Rather it must be better training and decision making skills. IFR conditions along a sightseeing VFR flight path should have stopped the doomed flight from ever taking off in the first place. Flight into IMC requires a flight plan and there are minimum safe altitudes for the filed route. It's fine if a pilot wants to risk his own life flying into known hazardous conditions, but doing so with a plane full of innocent passengers is, at best, reckless homicide and, at worst, simply murder.
    The weather on that mountain can and does change very rapidly. Just because you get caught in weather doesn’t imply you launched in weather.

    Lets wait for the accident report......

    MTV

  16. #16

    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Vermont USA
    Posts
    394
    Post Thanks / Like
    If I recall there had been a number of comments for a week about weather coming out of the West and this being considerably uncommon. Then the reports of this accident.
    A very skilled man who knew just where he was and what he was doing, he was also a man who knew his and his aircraft's limits. He got caught in a truly unexpected situation with a very bad turnout.
    Again, this is a very sad situation but I do not see in any way that blame can be placed on the pilot.

    There are times that bad ship happens that unfortunately we can not prevent.
    Likes algonquin liked this post

  17. #17

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Anchorage
    Posts
    419
    Post Thanks / Like
    I've been on that mountain twice. Stood on top of it once.
    It simply creates its own weather.
    Weather does not have to "roll in from the west" to turn a incredible summit day into a holy hell what happened moment.
    Thanks tedwaltman1 thanked for this post
    Likes algonquin liked this post

  18. #18
    Farmboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Glens Falls, NY
    Posts
    1,577
    Post Thanks / Like
    Leighan Falley posted this photo and comment on Facebook.

    ***Photo from one of our pilots taken near the crash site, near the time of the accident (coincidence, he wasn't aware of it yet). VFR, but the adage "treat every cloud like it has a mountain behind it" is well illustrated in this case.****

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	39075616_1759746154109572_3720228542114430976_o.jpg 
Views:	193 
Size:	72.5 KB 
ID:	38412


    That's the difference between Alaska Pilots and the lower-48'ers. That photo is just another day of flying up there. I see that and think, no freaking way I'm flying into that.

    pb
    Likes mike mcs repair, kestrel liked this post

  19. #19

    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Vermont USA
    Posts
    394
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by StalledOut View Post
    I've been on that mountain twice. Stood on top of it once.
    It simply creates its own weather.
    Weather does not have to "roll in from the west" to turn a incredible summit day into a holy hell what happened moment.
    But it changes which side of the peaks the weather is on which is what can catch a man out.

  20. #20
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Fairbanks, AK.
    Posts
    869
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    That's the difference between Alaska Pilots and the lower-48'ers. That photo is just another day of flying up there. I see that and think, no freaking way I'm flying into that.
    pb
    That's how it's been for some Alaskan pilots. I recall 50+ years ago in Sitka when one seaplane operator would launch into poor conditions only to be soon followed by others not wanting to be left out of the income flow. I suspect that scenario still exists in some locations. But who knows what led to this tragedy?

    Gary

  21. #21
    aktango58's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    18AA
    Posts
    8,619
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    Leighan Falley posted this photo and comment on Facebook.

    ***Photo from one of our pilots taken near the crash site, near the time of the accident (coincidence, he wasn't aware of it yet). VFR, but the adage "treat every cloud like it has a mountain behind it" is well illustrated in this case.****

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	39075616_1759746154109572_3720228542114430976_o.jpg 
Views:	193 
Size:	72.5 KB 
ID:	38412


    That's the difference between Alaska Pilots and the lower-48'ers. That photo is just another day of flying up there. I see that and think, no freaking way I'm flying into that.

    pb
    Often you can fly AROUND the weather. However, some times you see what you need to go past the first cloud to reach your destination.

    It is always fun to be loading the plane and watching the ceiling and vis go down to nothing.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
    Likes kestrel liked this post

  22. #22

    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    65
    Post Thanks / Like
    That photo looks like a lot of wind.

  23. #23
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Northern Maine
    Posts
    380
    Post Thanks / Like
    For all of us the are firmilar with how a loaded Beaver climbs at 11K. And considering how close he came to making it. The wind is likely at play here. They will find both the prop and throttle all the way forward. Horrible mess to be in. Sounds like like a nasty burble on the back
    side of that ridgeline. Having flown right there before, the
    wind can do unimaginable things up there. Sad.
    Thanks CharlieN, super stol thanked for this post
    Likes kestrel, flylow, BC12D-4-85, algonquin liked this post

  24. #24
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    chugiak AK
    Posts
    9,185
    Post Thanks / Like
    for some reason I don't see it listed here? am I blind?

    https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=100:93:::NO:::

  25. #25

    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Vermont USA
    Posts
    394
    Post Thanks / Like
    I watch those those pages as well, I would have expected a mention sooner or later.

  26. #26
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Fairbanks, AK.
    Posts
    869
    Post Thanks / Like
    Question to Denali flyers: Do flight tour companies have planned or programmed routes? It appears so and I assume they have CTAF or chatter frequencies re flight conditions:

    https://www.nps.gov/dena/planyourvis...nformation.htm
    https://www.nps.gov/dena/planyourvis...Brochure01.pdf

    Do pilots have route and terrain options if limited by weather? I assume so but just asking.

    Gary

  27. #27

    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    48
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    But it changes which side of the peaks the weather is on which is what can catch a man out.
    “Catch a man out” with emphasis on “catch”.
    ”You have circled this mountain long enough”.
    We are very attracted to mountains, their beauty wants us to get close to them by hiking, climbing, flying, whatever it takes to get close. But the mountain still has unknown tricks up her sleeve, yet, she draws us closer. She does indeed “set traps”.
    When trapping beaver, often I’ll want to trap out the whole pond. Within a night or two, I’ve got the young and less experience beaver leaving one, usually two, older “educated” beaver. Very smart beaver. Sometimes I think “these things are too smart to catch”, however, I switch up my tricks and exercise some patience.
    Eventually I get the very last one. “Tricks and surprises” win. There is only one thing, one only, that a smart beaver can do to save it’s life- leave the pond. Despite better equipment, training, you name it,
    the mountain has more “traps” and she’s not telling where they are exactly. Or when. She’s been known to set “decoys” too and have you focused elsewhere. So beware.
    Often I wonder if the dead could speak, what would the pilot and passengers have to say us who continue to circle the mountain?
    Roddy
    Thanks j3doc, scout88305 thanked for this post
    Likes Farmboy, silflexer liked this post

  28. #28
    skywagon8a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    SE Mass
    Posts
    7,936
    Post Thanks / Like
    Whenever I see an accident of this type, I wonder whether it took place on the up wind or down wind side of the ridge. Wind direction awareness is so important, even when the velocity is slight.
    N1PA
    Thanks iiAtlas, YoungCub thanked for this post
    Likes kestrel liked this post

  29. #29
    Clayton Harper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Seabrook, TX
    Posts
    135
    Post Thanks / Like
    I talked to a friend in Talkeetna. The word around the campfire is that, it is believed he got caught between layers, then tried to climb out in a Beaver from 11000. CFIT! The wreckage is so high and unstable it probably won't be recovered.
    Thanks OLDCROWE thanked for this post

  30. #30
    Barnstormer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Sterling, Alaska
    Posts
    652
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    I’m curious if K2 is running terrain GPS in their planes?
    I'm not Monday morning quarterbacking what may/may not have happened, just commenting on GPS Terrain options.

    Synthetic Vision in Foreflight or Garmin Pilot will provide the needed visual information on screen to avoid flying into a mountain. Of course it would need to be turned on and ideally have an AHRS interfaced with it such as a Stratus or a GDL. I have all of the above but have to admit I never fly with it turned on. And in the SQ2 I have a Dynon Skyview as my primary everything and it has Synthetic vision as well that is on screen all the time. Perhaps it's time to embrace these technologies to increase our situational awareness. With today's technology CFIT "could" become a thing for the history books. Perhaps when I'm scud running I should embrace this technology myself. Food for thought.

  31. #31
    behindpropellers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    NE Ohio
    Posts
    6,594
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Barnstormer View Post
    I'm not Monday morning quarterbacking what may/may not have happened, just commenting on GPS Terrain options.

    Synthetic Vision in Foreflight or Garmin Pilot will provide the needed visual information on screen to avoid flying into a mountain. Of course it would need to be turned on and ideally have an AHRS interfaced with it such as a Stratus or a GDL. I have all of the above but have to admit I never fly with it turned on. And in the SQ2 I have a Dynon Skyview as my primary everything and it has Synthetic vision as well that is on screen all the time. Perhaps it's time to embrace these technologies to increase our situational awareness. With today's technology CFIT "could" become a thing for the history books. Perhaps when I'm scud running I should embrace this technology myself. Food for thought.
    se.

    That technology is only as good as the terrain data loaded, though. One of the links above notes that this is an ongoing issue.
    Likes kestrel, Hyrdflyr liked this post

  32. #32
    mvivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Bozeman,MT
    Posts
    9,852
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by behindpropellers View Post
    se.

    That technology is only as good as the terrain data loaded, though. One of the links above notes that this is an ongoing issue.
    And, that point is well worth repeating: In Alaska, the terrain data, which every GPS based device relies on for position data, is NOT sufficiently precise to enable navigation in IMC. If you choose to use this data in IMC, you may not be able to maintain sufficient clearance from terrain.

    Dont rely on this data, folks.....

    MTV

  33. #33
    Barnstormer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Sterling, Alaska
    Posts
    652
    Post Thanks / Like
    I'll go as far as to say that if I was flying IFR, I'd never rely solely on GPS data. Case in point: a couple of days ago I'm flying across the Forelands at 5,500 feet MSL. Halfway across Foreflight pops up an alert that I'm descending too quickly. I watch the GPS altitude spiral down to almost sea level. Of course I was still at 5500 feet. And my position moved away from where I really was. I powered up Garmin Pilot to confirm it wasn't a Foreflight problem. I even powered off and powered on my iPad. No change. That behavior continued for about 5 minutes then it fixed itself. I assume that was the military messing around (we've been warned that Red Flag is underway till August 24).

  34. #34
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Toledo, Wa (KTDO)
    Posts
    2,971
    Post Thanks / Like
    ALL electronic nav is subject to being messed with. Spooky stuff.

    Whiskey compass and watch aren't very precise but they're sure a good source for sanity checks!

    Just yesterday, in the smoke, I was questioning the GPS. But the whiskey compass confirmed that the magic GPS box was right and my senses were wrong.

    As to the topic of this thread nobody knows what happened, yet it happened to an experienced pilot. A tragic and very sad reminder to pay attention to all the things that can possibly go wrong.

    I've been impressed by a friend, who with tens of thousands of hours including many with Reeve Aleutian, uses a written checklist for every flight in his 180. I've taken that as a lesson.
    Last edited by Gordon Misch; 08-15-2018 at 08:02 PM.
    Gordon

    N4328M KTDO
    My SPOT: tinyurl.com/N4328M (case sensitive)

  35. #35
    aktango58's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    18AA
    Posts
    8,619
    Post Thanks / Like
    And remember, synthetic vision shows clearance to the ground, not the top of the trees...

    Which may not seem important, but if you have 150' trees and are scrambling to climb out of trouble, it might get worse.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
    Likes mike mcs repair liked this post

  36. #36
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Toledo, Wa (KTDO)
    Posts
    2,971
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    And remember, synthetic vision shows clearance to the ground, not the top of the trees...

    Which may not seem important, but if you have 150' trees and are scrambling to climb out of trouble, it might get worse.
    Shouldnt be there in the first place. I'm entitled to say that because younger and foolisher, done that.

    Edit: I'm in no way dissing on the subject pilot. He got surprised, in a way that we can't know.
    Last edited by Gordon Misch; 08-15-2018 at 10:28 PM.
    Gordon

    N4328M KTDO
    My SPOT: tinyurl.com/N4328M (case sensitive)

  37. #37
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Fairbanks, AK.
    Posts
    869
    Post Thanks / Like
    Nothing wrong with extending 91.119 to include 500' above terrain in sparsely populated areas. Gives a little room and time to think and act.

    Then there's 135.203's 500' AGL limit.

    Gary

  38. #38
    mvivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Bozeman,MT
    Posts
    9,852
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Nothing wrong with extending 91.119 to include 500' above terrain in sparsely populated areas. Gives a little room and time to think and act.

    Then there's 135.203's 500' AGL limit.

    Gary
    Which works right up till it doesn’t. Sometimes, we are faced with two very undesirable choices. And these sometimes offer no good outcomes.

    MTV

  39. #39
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    chugiak AK
    Posts
    9,185
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Nothing wrong with extending 91.119 to include 500' above terrain in sparsely populated areas. Gives a little room and time to think and act.

    Then there's 135.203's 500' AGL limit.

    Gary
    Who flys 500 feet AGL in Alaska?? We hade to get on one of our new lower 48 pilots for flying at 3000ft because he was gonna scare the passengers, who all had much more time in the air than he did.......


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app

  40. #40

Similar Threads

  1. Geico Skytyper SNJ fatal crash.
    By Farmboy in forum Member to Member
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-31-2018, 03:15 PM
  2. Fatal midair last year
    By neoflyer in forum Cafe Supercub
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 03-13-2015, 08:47 PM
  3. Fatal Crash (GCBC) across the Bay from Homer AK
    By Alex Clark in forum Cafe Supercub
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 09-12-2012, 07:09 PM
  4. Not a Cub FATAL accident, but a lesson in cross-winds.
    By Alex Clark in forum Cafe Supercub
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 08-16-2012, 01:34 PM
  5. Casco Bay, Maine fatal accident. (ps - not cliff)
    By OVEREASYGUY in forum Cafe Supercub
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 07-06-2012, 03:02 AM

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •