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Thread: building a wag aero 2+2/ upgraded pa14

  1. #1
    labrador_cub's Avatar
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    building a wag aero 2+2/ upgraded pa14

    hello all, I'm getting close to finishing up my current project of building my dream truck. so with that and no desire to build anymore vehicles anytime soon I'm starting to plan my new airplane build. this will be my first plane so I'm really excited about it, but I'm going to need help! I live in western Labrador in Canada and the best way to describe it is lots of water and cold, there is lakes everywhere and despite being June 3rd they still have ice in them. so naturally just like my pa12 this new plane will live on floats and ski's only, wheels are almost useless here, in fact I don't even own a tail wheel for my pa12 just a ski lol. as much as I love the pa12 I'd like side by side seating and be able to take 3 people comfortable and a bit of fishing gear or 2 people and a bunch of gear with decent performance, if I can stick 2 passengers in this new plane and match the performance of my 150hp flap equipped pa12 with 1 passenger I will be happy! I looked at the bearhawk but there's not many on floats and I didn't have much luck finding how they perform on them, so that and loving the 12 so much I figured why not just build a 14 and add a few twist's.

    so hears my plan so far, wag 2+2 fuselage which I'll be buying the material kit for and TIG welding , one of the O320 based 180HP engines , -18 style gear which will probably be +6" due to our snow depth, an extended -18 wing with decent sized flaps and squared tip, jackscrew setup for the trim instead of the tab wag uses , kydex interior and a simple panel.

    here's what I need help with, I have the northland drawing for the pa18 but I Don't have the wag drawings yet.

    will the 18 style wings bolt up to the 2+2 fuselage without much fuss?
    use pa12/14 , pa18 ,or custom struts?
    If pa18 would you run the aileron cable's like an -18 or in the wing like the 14's?
    does the wag material kit come with the tubes cut to length and coped already or is that up to me?
    and lastly for today what would you recommend for floats ? seems with the 2300# gross that edo2425 or 2440's would be good. I've also seen on here someone mention taking 2870 or maybe 2960's and removing a section

    Thanks in advance for any advice,
    Joey

  2. #2
    pa11driver's Avatar
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    Sounds like a great project! I fly a pa-14 a lot and it’s a great plane. That said, if I was building your project, I would make a couple changes. I’d build it up with one of the 4-place PA-18 fuselages because they are much bigger, and more ergonomically friendly. Side by side seating is tight in a pa-14. With your stated performance goals I’d also start with no less than a hopped up 0-360.

    Just some food for thought.

  3. #3
    labrador_cub's Avatar
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    I did some looking at the 4 place pa18 fuselages a while back and I must say I do like them but it seems like a big deviation from the original plans and I didn't find a lot of info on it, maybe I'm overthinking it but being new to building I didn't want to get in over my head. I was/am thinking about widening the 2+2 fuselage a little bit, that's why I was curious if the wag tubing kit came pre cut and coped, if it just plain lengths of tubing then I would be able to deviate a little bit from the wag plan's.

    after what you said I'm rethinking the 180 hp now, this new plane will be bigger , bigger floats to haul through the water and lets say wild number guess 350 pounds extra weight including the added passenger. to get all that to perform close to my pa12 might take more then an extra 30HP. I'd like to hear some more thoughts on this.

    nothing about this project is set in stone, this site has way more knowledge of building and bush flying then I'll ever come close to having so any input and help is greatly appreciated. trying to do this right the first time and end up with a plane i'm happy with and proud of.

  4. #4
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Someone here mentioned that there is a company in eastern Canada which cuts and profiles tubing kits for various types of planes among other things. For a scratch builder this sounds like a good idea to start with something like this. Also I understand that Nick Smith is also still doing fuselages. He is near Toronto and might be a good person for you to talk with.

    I agree with pa11driver, use an 0-360 as a minimum. You can't beat cubic inches for pulling power. There is a low 7.2-1 compression version which used 80 octane and was rated at 168 hp. http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...ighlight=o-360 If you are a regular low octane gas user this may appeal to you. I knew a fellow who installed one of these engines in his PA-12 on floats. He was a big man and the plane did a good job. I participated in a small way in getting the STC.

    Check out Eddie Peck in Bear River NS http://peckaero.ca/customers-aircraft-on-our-2250s/ He has been rebuilding and building floats for many years and does a good job. His 2250 float is a widened copy of EDO's 2000. This float might serve your purpose.
    N1PA

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by labrador_cub View Post
    does the wag material kit come with the tubes cut to length and coped already or is that up to me?

    Thanks in advance for any advice,
    Joey
    You will just get a truck delivery of tubing. You will be doing all the tube fitting such that any changes you want will not be restricted by the materials delivered.
    You will probably need to buy more tube at some point as well.

    I have not looked recently at where the stick location is in relation to the struts on yours but I would consider something similar to the 18 style cable run.
    In the build I am doing I am using aluminum struts and running the aileron cable inside the strut tube since these do not require being closed off. The cable will be aft of the spar to a bellcrank with pushrod aft to the aileron. The relay cable is a straight run across in front of the spar. This greatly reduces the changes in cable direction without a large parts count.

    Mine is a single strut tube since I will be building with alloy skin wings so it is a bit different than your needs.

  6. #6
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    I'm building a 2+2--just started last November. Right or wrong, I widened the front cockpit 1" and plan to have bowed doors. The main point in choosing the design was side-by-side seating. I'm probably going to keep it as a 2 place.

    I bought my materials straight from Wicks. The only reason I did that was because Wag Aero told me there would be a 6-8 week backlog in getting the fuselage materials kit from them.

    But I'd recommend getting that kit because it comes with pre-made fittings. I'll be scratch building mine, probably, and it is a fair amount of work.

    As for the tubing kit, it is just a pile of tubes. You will have to measure and profile them.

    I got the Wag drawings and the Northland drawings first and spent quite a bit of tie studying them before ordering any materials. The standard super cub wing fits--dimensions at the spar are the same, etc.

    I'll be looking forward to your project.

  7. #7
    Marty57's Avatar
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    I'm getting close to finishing my scratch built 2+2, sheet metal up front and covering is all that remains. All control surfaces are covered, wings ready to cover. After much research, I bought the materials kit for the fuselage because of the fittings included that I didn't want to make (wing attach, landing gear attach, etc.) The kit was by far the best bang for the bucks on materials when you figure in buying the fittings that you do not want to make your self. The changes I made were to add flaps bringing the 2+2 back to a PA-14 and add the jack screw rather than the trim tab. My wing is wood but it is exactly the same dimensions as a standard Super cub wing. My flap hardware is stock Super Cub. Rather than widening the fuselage, I added sliding seat tracks to off set the front seats, easy to do. Landing gear is stock Super Cub as is the attach hardware from the kit. Too bad about the back log on the materials kit but not surprised. Waiting on kits is pretty standard regardless of manufacturer. Every step of my progress is on my website; marty2plus2.com. I have compiled all incredible tips and help I have gotten here on Supercub.org to pass it on to other builders.
    Marty
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  8. #8
    Wag2+2's Avatar
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    I have the D&E 66” Riblett wing on my 2+2 with a gross weight of 2500 lbs which it will carry. Definitely recommend the O-360 and jack screw for trim. Might also want to consider bigger tail feathers to handle the wing. Also have the sliding seats which is nice for ingress and egress and passenger offset. Bench seat in back is removable so you can carry the moose or caribou.

  9. #9
    jimboflying's Avatar
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    I too had a PA12 and a PA14 at the same time. Both are great airplanes. I decided I wanted to scratch build a plane so I decided on the 2+2 using Wag Aero drawings and limited original PA14 drawings that I could round up from Cub Club. I went with a Dakota Cub PA12 wing kit. They make a flap retrofit kit and 24 gallon tanks. I encorporated both at the time of the wing build. They have nice parts and good instructions. All cables are internal like a standard 12 wing. I built standard PA18 tail feathers and an electric jack screw trim system. I am pleased at how it is all coming together. It is a lot of work and takes a lot of time but it is time well spent.
    Likes Marty57 liked this post

  10. #10

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    Consider bushmaster/ producer option. Similar performance with more cabin/baggage space.

  11. #11

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    Where do you keep your plane in Wabush? I have been in and out of there twice in the last two summers. On the water at the sea base.

    Jim

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    labrador_cub's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the insite so far everyone, I defiantly still have some planning to do. I don't plan to start building till later this summer / the fall so the wait on the kit is no problem. I enjoying fabricating , fitting and welding but the brackets you get in the material kit seems well worth it from what I've been reading. I was checking out Aero sport power and they build a 195HP O-375, anyone have any experience with these engine's?

    TcraftF21, I keep the pa12 at my cabin on the shabogamo lake system around 11 miles north east of the wabush seaplane base.
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    Keep in mind one of the biggest difference
    between the 12, 14 and the 18 is the
    angle of incidence. It is the primary reason
    the 18 will land and take off shorter and
    also the reason why the 12’s and 14’s fly
    faster. I assume the wide body 18 has the
    18 angle if incidence and I assume the
    wag aero kits or plans have the flatter
    angle of incidence of the 12 and 14. Big
    difference in the takeoff performance and
    speed performance. I’m only assuming
    the kits and aftermarket fuselages use
    the angle of incidence of the originals.
    Decide what your after before you buy
    or make a fuselage

  14. #14
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reliableflyer View Post
    I assume the wide body 18 has the
    18 angle if incidence and I assume the
    wag aero kits or plans have the flatter
    angle of incidence of the 12 and 14. Big
    difference in the takeoff performance and
    speed performance. I’m only assuming
    the kits and aftermarket fuselages use
    the angle of incidence of the originals.
    Decide what your after before you buy
    or make a fuselage
    I can confirm that the Wag Aero 2+2 plans show the front spar mount being 1.5 inches higher than the rear spar. The Northland Cub drawings have the difference at 2.5 inches. Both as measured from the horizontal reference line.

  15. #15
    labrador_cub's Avatar
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    wouldn't lowering the but hinge bracket on the front spar or reducing the 15* angle its mounted at (for pa18 wings at least, its the only drawings I have right now) increase the AOI without changing the fuselage attach points. or would this cause an issue I'm not aware of other then having to fit the gingerbread to the new wing angle.

  16. #16
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Strut length maybe?
    Gordon

    N4328M KTDO
    My SPOT: tinyurl.com/N4328M (case sensitive)

  17. #17
    Marty57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Misch View Post
    Strut length maybe?
    The 2+2 uses the PA12 lift strut when built to the drawings; the Northland drawings uses the PA18 lift strut; different length. Struts were one of the few parts I decided not to make my self. When considering changes to plans, be advised it opens up a big can of worms that show up at all sorts of odd times when building. Just adding flaps took a lot of time to complete all the changes that came up. Some were predictable, many were not ..... but that's what scratch building is all about.
    Marty
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    Psalm 36:7 "High and low among men find refuge in the shadow of His wing"
    www.marty2plus2.com

  18. #18
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by labrador_cub View Post
    ...this new plane will live on floats and ski's only, wheels are almost useless here
    -18 style gear which will probably be +6" due to our snow depth, an extended -18 wing with decent sized flaps and squared tip,
    will the 18 style wings bolt up to the 2+2 fuselage without much fuss?
    use pa12/14 , pa18 ,or custom struts?
    Joey
    Quote Originally Posted by labrador_cub View Post
    wouldn't lowering the but hinge bracket on the front spar or reducing the 15* angle its mounted at (for pa18 wings at least, its the only drawings I have right now) increase the AOI without changing the fuselage attach points. or would this cause an issue I'm not aware of other then having to fit the gingerbread to the new wing angle.
    Joey,
    Try not to complicate your project. Just keep the wing attachment the same as the plans. The issue is the angle of the wings in relation to the ground/water during take off and landing. You can set the angle with the length of the float struts. The angle when on skis will be determined by your +6" landing gear.
    Aerodynamically the -18, -12 and -14 wings are the same since they use the same shaped ribs. Double the length of the stock flaps.
    The flaps on this wing are 110" long. The ailerons inboard hinge is the same location as the original control cable attachment with the outboard end at the tip rib. Lots of lift and good control.


    You live in the middle of great fishing territory. I've been there several times as far as 150 miles or so northeast of Schefferville.
    N1PA

  19. #19
    Southern Aero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RVBottomly View Post
    I can confirm that the Wag Aero 2+2 plans show the front spar mount being 1.5 inches higher than the rear spar. The Northland Cub drawings have the difference at 2.5 inches. Both as measured from the horizontal reference line.
    RV

    I have an old Northland drawing #12183 dated 1-20-02. There are many discrepancies between the dimensions "scaled" from the drawing and the "dimensions" depicted. This may have been corrected over the years............. I can import drawings and bring them up to "full size" in my software. This allows me to scale from any point accurately. I compared this print to Pipers' 12183 from http://www.supercubproject.com/drawings/main.aspx . The biggest discrepancies that jump right out is the dimension from the HRL to the front wing attach point is shown at 24.750 but scales at 23.750 ...... back to the 1.50 difference from front to rear (rear is accurate). ......... That comes out to about 1.848* increase ........The dimension of the top of the engine mount to the HRL is shown at 1.500 but scales at 2.500, that one is pretty easy to see. The HRL to the bottom longeron is is shown at 25.500 but scales at 26.500 (deeper cabin?) These dimensions would require a slightly longer strut. Biggest concern would be the having to increase the horizontals position to get the correct decalage angle to match the wing incidence increase. With out modifying it you can surely run out of down trim approaching cruise. All this may have already been addressed but I haven't seen it.

    Just something for a builder to be aware of..............
    ......... it doesn't cost any more to go first class! you just can't stay as long.
    Thanks RVBottomly thanked for this post

  20. #20

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    My fav 2+2 was that Super Chub with tandem seating!

    Vr3engineering will CAD cut and profile tubes, I think N Smith uses these guys as well.
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  21. #21
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Someone here mentioned that there is a company in eastern Canada which cuts and profiles tubing kits for various types of planes among other things. For a scratch builder this sounds like a good idea to start with something like this. Also I understand that Nick Smith is also still doing fuselages. He is near Toronto and might be a good person for you to talk with.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cappt View Post
    Vr3engineering will CAD cut and profile tubes, I think N Smith uses these guys as well.
    That's the company. http://vr3.ca/ They are in Stratford Ontario.
    N1PA
    Likes C-FIJK liked this post

  22. #22
    labrador_cub's Avatar
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    thanks for reminding me about VR3, I found them a while back when I was looking at the bearhawk's, I don't know why I didn't think about them for the 2+2. I'll have to give them a call and see if they can incorporate widening the fuselage into the material when the cut it, should be easier for them to figure it out then me seeing that's what they do everyday. Them being Canadian also makes things a little easier with shipping.

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