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Thread: No transponder, best solution for ADS-B in/out?

  1. #1

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    No transponder, best solution for ADS-B in/out?

    Have not paid much attention to ADS-B, didn't plan on getting it, but transponder just went tup so looking for a new transponder and might as well get ADS-B something, looking for good but not expensive and certified not experimental

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    I went with the Garmin GTX 335 all in one. Internal WAAS GPS. Can share position with other devices. Haven't installed it yet.

    Depends on your definition of expensive. No ADS-B out is cheap.
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"
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    Watch for certification soon. The tail light looks like a great idea.
    https://www.uavionix.com/news/skybea...cation-update/

    For in? I like a Garmin GDL with Garmin Pilot on my iPhone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Watch for certification soon. The tail light looks like a great idea.
    https://www.uavionix.com/news/skybea...cation-update/

    For in? I like a Garmin GDL with Garmin Pilot on my iPhone.
    Yeah, but you have to have a working transponder for ANY 978-UAT solution to work... And the OP stated his transponder just died...

    I had the same situation (dying transponder, needed ADS-B OUT). I figured my choice was to either go with an "all-in-one" 1090ES transponder solution, or replace my transponder and add a 978-UAT ADS-B OUT device. I decided that the 1090ES "all-in-one" solution made more sense for me. I looked (briefly) at the L3 solution (very cool, but $$$$), then talked to my avionics shop for their recommendations. His recommendation was to go with either the Garmin GTX-335 or the Appareo Stratus ESG. After looking at both, getting identical bids for both, I decided I liked the looks of the Appareo better, and kind of like promoting competition for Garmin, so I went with the Appareo.

    I'm happy with the Appareo, and glad I made that choice. Your mileage may vary...
    Jim Parker
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    fobjob's Avatar
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    After reading the manuals on the 335 and the Appareo , I decided that Garmin has lost track of the principle of simplicity and went with the Appareo....not disappointed with my choice.
    Last edited by fobjob; 04-14-2018 at 11:40 PM.
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    I have been looking at these awful lot and here is my take on it. Garman is great if you have a Garman (glass) cockpit you want everything to integrate together. I would say this is the option for an expensive airplane or you have money to burn. I agree Garmin is complicated. If you want cheap compliance UAvionics will be the way to go when available 2Q for certified aircraft. I don’t think you can beat the installation cost. In my opinion if you’re going to go ADS-B out you will want all the bells and whistles of the Garman or the Appareo ESG. For a for a simple Alaska Bush plane such as cub or etc... I would go with this Appareo ESG and splurge for the Stratus 2 with ForeFlight and an iPad. The question then is to put it behind the panel or stay portable for the stratus placement . But then you are in Alaska and do you really need ADS-B? Lower 48 I think you need ADS-B In/Out just for the traffic. That would be nice for Alaska, but with a low compliance rate (my opinion) there will still be a lot of UFOs out there. Nothing beats a good set of eyes out the window!


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    This doesn't look complicated to me. https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/540911#overview

    My G3X system uses an ES transponder. Also not very complicated. It does require adding a separate WAAS GPS receiver and antenna. How does Appareo solve the WAAS requirement differently than Garmin?
    Last edited by stewartb; 04-15-2018 at 01:00 PM.
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    I only need ADSB if I decide to head through Canada. My understanding is that 978 is not going to work for Canada...so I would consider only 1090 if that was part of what I wanted to do.


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    fobjob's Avatar
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    One thing you need to realize about the satellite adsb; it leaves breadcrumbs in memory which will enable atc to find you, even if your elt gets hammered. If you have a secret stash that you fly to, that may create a problem for you....
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    Has any look into LEVIL Aviation.
    t-cart n43643
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    Quote Originally Posted by supercub1999 View Post
    Have not paid much attention to ADS-B, didn't plan on getting it, but transponder just went tup so looking for a new transponder and might as well get ADS-B something, looking for good but not expensive and certified not experimental

    Thanks
    Hello 1999---I`ve got a "virgin" Apollo SL-70 transponder that I never used in a planned upgrade in my RV-8 which never occurred---manual, tray and pin connector included---the most powerful transponder ever---$200.00---I`m at Spruce Creek 7FL6 in Daytona Beach---386-767-5866 or cell 603-205-4727---John


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    Quote Originally Posted by yellowbird69 View Post
    Hello 1999---I`ve got a "virgin" Apollo SL-70 transponder that I never used in a planned upgrade in my RV-8 which never occurred---manual, tray and pin connector included---the most powerful transponder ever---$200.00---I`m at Spruce Creek 7FL6 in Daytona Beach---386-767-5866 or cell 603-205-4727---John
    After hanging with the Boyz all week at SnF it looks like you need gas money to come back home?

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    This doesn't look complicated to me. https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/540911#overview

    My G3X system uses an ES transponder. Also not very complicated. It does require adding a separate WAAS GPS receiver and antenna. How does Appareo solve the WAAS requirement differently than Garmin?
    Stewart,

    There's one less "box" involved versus the solution you linked to, which adds a GDL-82 and GPS antenna to the existing installation (transponder and transponder antenna).

    But that wasn't what I referred to when I was talking about "less complex" -- I was looking at it from the user's standpoint, and the menu structures and keystrokes to get to things you want to do with the device. And to me at least, the Appareo Stratus ESG is less complex and easier to use than the Garmin GTX-335.

    But don't get me wrong -- both units are fine devices, and if I had an all-Garmin stack, I would probably have gone with the GTX-335 just to keep it consistent and to have "one neck to wring" when things go wrong. But since I have zero Garmin stuff in my 7ECA, that wasn't a consideration.
    Jim Parker
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    My question was to fobjob but you can answer it. Why is the ESG less complicated than a 335? Both have built-in WAAS and both require the addition of an external GPS antenna. The GDL82 is a plug-in for supplementing a non-ADS-B transponder, similar to the little UAvionics gadgets I linked earlier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    After hanging with the Boyz all week at SnF it looks like you need gas money to come back home?

    Glenn
    I can`t use the TXP as a boat anchor cause all I have is a kayak---Click image for larger version. 

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    "You cannot teach experience, you must acquire it."
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    L-3 Lynx NGT 9000. All in one, wx and traffic display built in. High quality, easy install.
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  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeeBee View Post
    L-3 Lynx NGT 9000. All in one, wx and traffic display built in. High quality, easy install.
    And one of the most expensive ADS-B Out/In solutions on the market... But I do love the NGT 9000, and wish I had the $$ to afford one. It would be really nice to have both traffic and weather displays available (even if a bit small for my 62-year-old eyes).
    Jim Parker
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    My question was to fobjob but you can answer it. Why is the ESG less complicated than a 335? Both have built-in WAAS and both require the addition of an external GPS antenna.

    This is, obviously, personal opinion and could be highly variable for different people. What I mean by "less complicated" is that the user interface is more intuitive (requires fewer references to the manual) and easier to remember (the flow seems more logical to me) for the Appareo ESG than for the Garmin GTX 335/345 (or even the 327 and 330 series transponders). This despite the fact that every airplane I've owned prior to the 7ECA has had a Garmin transponder, so the "law of primacy" doesn't apply here... Of course, I'm referring to things OTHER than setting the transponder code, where all of them are pretty much standardized. Things like using the flight timer, checking the pressure altitude being transmitted, etc.

    Sometimes, systems that provide very similar functionality interact with the user in very different ways. For instance, I find the EI engine monitors much more intuitive and easier to use than their JPI counterparts (and I owned a JPI before the EI, so it's not about "primacy" here). I rarely had to refer to the EI user manual, whereas the JPI manual got used a LOT! Almost anything I didn't use on every flight required me to drag out the manual for the JPI. The EI manual got used maybe twice in two years...

    In a similar example, I personally find ForeFlight's user interface to much more intuitive and easier to use than Wing-X, Garmin Pilot, etc. That doesn't mean Wing-X and Garmin Pilot aren't good products (quite the opposite, in fact). Just that I can get around within ForeFlight more easily.

    But again, this is highly subjective and personal. You may find just the opposite to be true for you. That's why choice is great! Check out all the various options, and see for yourself which one(s) you like best. For me, since the pricing was identical, it came down to a minor difference in ease-of-use (simplicity, if you will) that caused me to give the nod to Appareo. (Well, that and a bit of "rooting for the underdog"...)
    Jim Parker
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  19. #19
    spinner2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PA-12 on Baumanns View Post
    But then you are in Alaska and do you really need ADS-B? Lower 48 I think you need ADS-B In/Out just for the traffic. That would be nice for Alaska, but with a low compliance rate (my opinion) there will still be a lot of UFOs out there. Nothing beats a good set of eyes out the window!
    The busiest airspace I've ever flown in is the Valley in Alaska. When I had my Cub there last summer it was amazing how much traffic was showing on my 796 with the GDL 39 as an In source. And Alaska has a pretty good layout of ADS-B towers. Better than much of the western US.

    I agree with everyone that says you need to be looking outside to see the traffic. The nice thing about seeing traffic on your screen first is that it shows you where to look for much of the traffic. And whether it is higher or lower than you are.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp
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  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimParker256 View Post
    And one of the most expensive ADS-B Out/In solutions on the market... But I do love the NGT 9000, and wish I had the $$ to afford one. It would be really nice to have both traffic and weather displays available (even if a bit small for my 62-year-old eyes).

    You are correct. Capability cost money and with NGT 9000 it is “one and done”. It covers all issues now and on the horizon, and if there are new ones, it is software upgradeable. My eyes got a few years on your eyes, and in all those years I have discovered one thing about avionics. It is one of the few products where you really do get what you pay for. I learned that when in 1976 I saw a 172 equipped with very expensive Bendix Nav/Comms vs ARC. That airplane still flies with the same radios trouble free all those years. The same cannot be said of ARC radios. I remember when the transponder requirements and regulations first came out. Lots of low cost entrants into the market such as IFD and where are those units now? Most of them went Tango Uniform because their repair cost exceeded their value. The L-3 is a few “airplane units” more than others in cost. About the cost of a set of those big fat tires. I would rather pay for quality up front that will last years, indeed decades and not spend my time dealing with repairs of cheap equipment and constantly questioning the value of repair of the same.
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  21. #21
    spinner2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy Hamon View Post
    I only need ADSB if I decide to head through Canada. My understanding is that 978 is not going to work for Canada...so I would consider only 1090 if that was part of what I wanted to do.


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    I didn't know Canada had any ADS-B service. Most of it doesn't even have radar coverage.

    I think the 1090 ES is only required if you're above 18,000'. But I may be wrong.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp
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  22. #22
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    Low cost (such as it is) ADS-B: Uavionix units are indeed a bit cheaper than the Garmin GDL82.
    But....Uavionix is new on the scene. Never heard of them until about 6 months ago.
    I remember Garmin being on the scene 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago....
    In other words, they appear to be here to stay, whereas Uavionix might be just a flash in the pan.

    Starting from scratch, an all-in-one transponder / mode C / ADS-B solution makes sense.
    But it might be less expensive to buy a (used) legacy transponder (such as what John offered up for sale),
    and pair it with a stand-alone (ish) ADS-B unit such as the GDL82 or Uavionix Beacon.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
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  23. #23

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    uAvionix is a "new to GA" name, but they've been a huge player in the drone world for many years. They are a huge supplier of technology in that marketplace, and probably rival Garmin in volume on the world stage...
    Jim Parker
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  24. #24
    SJ's Avatar
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    Got this from uAvionix...

    What is the status of the skyBeacon certification?
    FCC approval and FAA transmit licenses are approved. Environmental and performance testing is completed and skyBeacon has exceeded all required standards.


    When does uAvionix expect to complete the certification?
    We will file our TSO by the end of June.
    Summary:

    We are on the final stretch having achieved numerous major milestones in the skyBeacon certification process. Specifically, skyBeacon has seen rigorous environmental and performance testing, exceeding required standards and ensuring compatibility with a wide variety of aircraft. We've worked with the FAA to gain a groundbreaking approval for integrating the modern microelectronics necessary to make skyBeacon a reality. Despite these successes, we haven't yet crossed the finish line. Over the last several months we've quadrupled our team, devoting significant resources to quickly complete the skyBeacon TSO.


    We are humbled by the response and continued support of our customers who have partnered with us to help shape a unique vision of aviation.


    We hope to see each and every one of you at AirVenture. We will either bring skyBeacon to sell and install on your aircraft, or a dunk tank for our certification lead.


    Thank you for your support and interest in skyBeacon,


    The uAvionix Team
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------
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  25. #25

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    My philosophy of "wait and see" might be paying off. I shall still wait until June 2000 for a decision, happily flying my Cub for six months. Maybe the Decathlon will need a rest by then.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by supercub1999 View Post
    Have not paid much attention to ADS-B, didn't plan on getting it, but transponder just went tup so looking for a new transponder and might as well get ADS-B something, looking for good but not expensive and certified not experimental

    Thanks
    The most 'space saving' set up is probably the Trig TT-22 transponder. It comes with the extended message (ES) format and installs in an existing 2 1/4" instrument hole. No need to cut a square hole and fit a tray. That setup covers your transponder requirements. If you want ADS-B, add a source of WAAS enabled GPS (must be certified to be legal for this) and you have a legal ADS-B out system. If you want to save more panel space Trig (and others) have dedicated WAAS GPS locators that mount blind. That means you can mount them anywhere handy and connect them to the transponder with data wires.

    As for ADS-B in, sky's the limit as the feds don't care. Use any system that works for you.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
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  27. #27
    55-PA18A's Avatar
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    Has anyone heard anything lately about the Uavionix SkyBeacon? Can it now be used in certified aircraft?

    Jim

  28. #28

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    Their website currently says:
    $1499 Experimental shipping NOW
    $1849 TSO Certified shipping August 2018

    Apparently, in working with the FAA, they became convinced that a non-TSO'ed STC process would be as complex as the TSO process. See the latest update here.
    Last edited by JimParker256; 07-07-2018 at 03:00 PM.
    Jim Parker
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  29. #29
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    For Experimental and LSA guys, if you absolutely gotta have adsb out - they are working on a solution without using a Transponder.

    https://generalaviationnews.com/2018...ia-tailbeacon/

  30. #30
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    This still needs a transponder. The unit piggy backs a signal with the existing transponder. Similar to the GDL 82.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
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  31. #31
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    . "The existing wiring and circuit breaker provide power and interface to the existing Mode C or S transponder through uAvionix’s patent pending power transcoder, company officials explain."
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  32. #32
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Oops, my bad, read it too fast.

  33. #33
    55-PA18A's Avatar
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    Didn't they swear on a stack of bibles that a certified version would be available by Oshkosh?

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by 55-PA18A View Post
    Didn't they swear on a stack of bibles that a certified version would be available by Oshkosh?
    That was a certified version of the wing mounted nav light beacon. They did get it certified by Oshkosh. This is a tail beacon replacement that would presumably fit more planes than the nav light replacement.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  35. #35
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    https://uavionix.com/products/tailbeacon/
    Certified tailBeacon expected to ship October, 2018

    N1PA

  36. #36
    Charlie Longley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fobjob View Post
    After reading the manuals on the 335 and the Appareo , I decided that Garmin has lost track of the principle of simplicity and went with the Appareo....not disappointed with my choice.
    Ive installed three of the Appareo’s so far. They’re fairly simple to install. Figure $4,000 installed out the door. $4,500 if you want the ADSB in unit added.

    I like the L3 Lynx if money’s no object.
    Last edited by Charlie Longley; 08-18-2018 at 06:41 PM.

  37. #37
    Charlie Longley's Avatar
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    North end of Puget Sound this afternoon. Good reason to have ADSB in/out.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Longley View Post
    North end of Puget Sound this afternoon. Good reason to have ADSB in/out.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Even better idea: Stay way the hell out of the Puget Sound area.

    There ya go, choice of ADS-B units solved: None.

    MTV
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  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Longley View Post
    North end of Puget Sound this afternoon. Good reason to have ADSB in/out.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Any Q400s in the aerobatic box?

  40. #40
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    https://uavionix.com/products/tailbeacon/
    Certified tailBeacon expected to ship October, 2018
    According to the website, no strobe though. Unlike the wingtip units. Bummer!
    Gordon

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