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Thread: Daydreaming About Flaps

  1. #41

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    On Kevin Quinn's Big Tire Pilots page.

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  3. #43
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by tempdoug View Post
    I don't mean to sound so contrarian but they should pay attention to the gap between the leading edge of that new flap and the trailing edge of the wing. That gap should not be there with the flaps up. When the flaps are down there should be smooth flow behind the wing and over the leading edge of the flap's slat. Perhaps they are going to add a fairing like the PA-18 uses? The shape of the trailing edge of the wing has a great deal of influence on how the air flows over the flap.

    I have wondered myself how a slot would work built into the flap such as this. It will be interesting to learn what their flight testing determines.
    N1PA

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by RVBottomly View Post
    I found this on the Rans website regarding teleflex for flaps.

    Attachment 36802


    It comes from the discussion of the S-21 Outbound. Scroll down to 3/29/17 entry:

    https://www.rans.com/21-outbound-progress-page-2

    I notice that flap deployment is in a pull configuration on a bellcrank. I remember the telexflex "Xtreme" cables can handle an 8" bend radius.
    Old thread, but a little additional info on Teleflex Xtreme - certain boat mfg's used them almost exclusively in their models, while typical marine distributors did not stock any of the Xtreme's. The difference to the std teleflex is the Xtreme cable has many more small "wires" forming the cable, where the non-Xtreme cable has fewer, larger, "wires" forming the cable. This allows the Xtreme cable to bend smaller radius's, but I would not recommend using it in a 8-9" bend radius. The big benefit was smoothness of the cable in it's action, and less resistance from small S-curve type routing in the engine bays or stringers. Highly recommend them.

  5. #45

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    One thing I like with the Telexflex "Xtreme" cables is the reduced friction compared with most other push-pull cables. I run with a foot throttle in my boats and the added sensitivity is greatly appreciated.

  6. #46

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    Daydreaming About Flaps

    Update on my own flaps. My flap handle was set up like a Cessna. Thumb button to pull, thumb button to release. The ability of the ratchet to engage the respective notches was inconsistent, and that was a problem. The solution? The full loop control cable is gone. I used a dual spring with a yoke at both bell cranks (original unequal arm type) in both wings. The flap ratchet is back to standard Cub. Pull up with no thumb button, thumb button required to retract. The flaps work much better now. They sag a couple of degrees in the tiedown but that sag disappears with airspeed. I use flap-aileron locks so no issue when parked outdoors. My flaps are easier to deploy and I have MUCH better control of the positions at the lever. My left flap has had a persistent degree or two sag when retracted and thatís gone. The plane flies better in cruise and control to landings is much better. Flap handle pressure is manageable. The spring pressure on the ground is higher than stock Cub but in flight I donít have any problems with it. All the comments about speed and flap pressure are correct, although overstated, but at any rate Iím not having any problem with mine, but Iím not a small guy. The gear effect of flaps rotating the nose down is absolutely linear. That was demontrated best when my flap ratchet wouldnít stay engaged. That made for some interesting landings. All better now.

    IMG_0216.JPG

    IMG_4798.JPG
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  7. #47

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    Slotted flap deployment force

    Quote Originally Posted by KelvinG View Post
    Using teleflex cables is an interesting idea. It would really simplify moving a flap handle from the floor to overhead. Thinking about it beings a couples of questions to mind.

    Any idea of the force required to deploy flaps? That would dictate the size \ weight of push-pull cable required.

    Why push-pull cables? They have load limits in 100s of pounds. Plain pull cables(i.e. brake cables) are rated in 1000s of pounds, are lighter than push-pull cables and would still get rid of the Y splice and flexing pulley issues.

    Sent from my SM-P900 using SuperCub.Org mobile app
    I can tell you that the force to actuate the Keller flaps is huge compared to my old stock flaps. This is on a one-off Cub/Cruiser hybrid that I built. The Airframes Alaska supplied manual says to not deploy full flaps over 70MPH. I decided to not deploy any flaps above 65. I have three detents in the flap ratchet pawl. The last detent will extend the flaps to the maximum angle. The position of my flap handle is not ideal and it requires that to get full deployment the handle ends up behind the pilot. The force required to get the last notch makes it almost impossible to get. I even tried slowing the airplane to 45 and the force is still extremely high.

    Since my airplane is experimental, The didn't supply the doublers required by the STC. I was and still concerned that this should be a necessity on all kits. There is a huge load on the flap hangers with these flaps.

    Testing that I did with the second notch did produce significantly lower stall speed and deck angle. The manual states max deployment angle of 50 degrees on the second section. With the second notch I get 30 degrees and that is where I did my testing.

    BTW: Bill Rusk is right about what I call a point of diminishing returns when you install slat and slotted flaps. Consider where each is designed to work. The flaps are designed to work at lower angles, whereas the slats work at higher angles.
    Last edited by scaleram; 02-20-2019 at 12:09 PM.
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by scaleram View Post
    BTW: Bill Rusk is right about what I call a point of diminishing returns when you install slat and slotted flaps. Consider where each is designed to work. The flaps are designed to work at lower angles, whereas the slats work at higher angles.
    The double slotted flaps would be my first choice. However as they slow your plane way down the angle of attack will increase to the point where leading edge slats will begin to become a benefit. This even though the pitch attitude is fairly level. Tie a piece of yarn on your jury strut and notice what happens as you slow down.
    N1PA
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  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by scaleram View Post

    BTW: Bill Rusk is right about what I call a point of diminishing returns when you install slat and slotted flaps. Consider where each is designed to work. The flaps are designed to work at lower angles, whereas the slats work at higher angles.
    Do you have time with the slat-split flap combination? The combination is incredible for slow flight in a useful attitude. How slow are you able to wheel land?
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  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Do you have time with the slat-split flap combination? The combination is incredible for slow flight in a useful attitude. How slow are you able to wheel land?
    I don't. I look at it as a point of diminishing returns. The split flaps add about 12 pounds over the stock version. The slats add about 10. That means that with both, you would be adding close to 25 pounds to the airplane for maybe another 1 or 2 MPH decrease in landing speed. Additionally, I'm more interested in the deck angle because I operate on floats a good bit of time. If I carry power into a wheel landing, I'm indicating about 23. That's on wheels. I haven't flown it on floats with the flaps.

    PS: I don't have vortex generators. I do have scars on my hands to prove that I have used them. That's next.
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  11. #51

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    I haven't flown floats for 10 years and haven't wanted to until I flew my Rev. Slats and split flaps and lots of horsepower would take me places my other floatplanes couldn't dream of going. To each their own. What slats weigh they more than make up for.
    Last edited by stewartb; 02-20-2019 at 07:39 PM. Reason: Sp.
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    I haven't flown floats for 10 yearsand haven't wanted to intil I flew my Rev. Slats and split flaps and lots of horsepower would take me places my other floatplanes couldn't dream of going. To each teir own. What slats weigh they more than make up for.
    I'm still putting my retirement project together. But that makes me hopeful I'm heading in the right direction!

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by scaleram View Post
    I don't. I look at it as a point of diminishing returns. The split flaps add about 12 pounds over the stock version. The slats add about 10. That means that with both, you would be adding close to 25 pounds to the airplane for maybe another 1 or 2 MPH decrease in landing speed. Additionally, I'm more interested in the deck angle because I operate on floats a good bit of time. If I carry power into a wheel landing, I'm indicating about 23. That's on wheels. I haven't flown it on floats with the flaps.

    PS: I don't have vortex generators. I do have scars on my hands to prove that I have used them. That's next.
    Thereís a really common misunderstanding that airplane deck angle always equals wing Angle of Attack.

    Once you deploy flaps, the wing AoA and fuselage angle change with respect to each other.

    Itís possible (and pretty common) to have very high wing AoAs with advanced flaps, like the double slotted flaps and pretty reasonable fuselage pitch angles. Slats would work at those higher WING AoAs (and much lower fuselage pitch attitudes) to help the wing continue flying.

    If you donít believe me or any of the guys routinely flying slat/slotted flap combos, go do a test: go fly your plane at a constant airspeed in the white arc and different flap settings and note your FUSELAGE pitch angle for each.

    This is a surprisingly common misunderstanding.

    VGs and slats do the same thing, but in different ways. VGs create a vortex over the wing. As the vortex travels aft, it spreads out vertically and traps some of the high energy, free stream air above the boundary layer and pulls it down. This re-energizes the boundary layer and helps it stay attached to the wing longer at higher wing AoAs. Slats accelerate the air traveling over the leading edge, giving it higher energy and helping it stay attached to the wing longer at higher wing AoAs. If you believe in one, you believe in both. But adding the extra weight and the cruise drag penalty of the slats is another decision that needs to be weighed.

    Also, words have meanings. A split flap is different than a slotted or double slotted flap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KelvinG View Post
    I'm still putting my retirement project together. But that makes me hopeful I'm heading in the right direction!

    Thanks

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
    You have good reason to remain energized!

  16. #56
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    I haven't flown floats for 10 years and haven't wanted to until I flew my Rev. Slats and split flaps and lots of horsepower would take me places my other floatplanes couldn't dream of going. To each their own. What slats weigh they more than make up for.
    maybe those float fitting you didn't order & want will be put to use?? amphibs??? does your new to you hanger fit you in on them?

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by scaleram View Post
    I don't. I look at it as a point of diminishing returns. The split flaps add about 12 pounds over the stock version. The slats add about 10. That means that with both, you would be adding close to 25 pounds to the airplane for maybe another 1 or 2 MPH decrease in landing speed. Additionally, I'm more interested in the deck angle because I operate on floats a good bit of time. If I carry power into a wheel landing, I'm indicating about 23. That's on wheels. I haven't flown it on floats with the flaps.

    PS: I don't have vortex generators. I do have scars on my hands to prove that I have used them. That's next.
    I agree with you. My Cub has extended squared off wings with 110" long otherwise stock flaps and a smooth wing leading edge extended skin on floats. It routinely operates comfortably in and out of a 1000 foot long pond with 30 foot tall trees on each end. It can clear the trees on take off by the 2/3 mark. It would be able to operate in a no obstacle 600 foot pond. Why add weight and drag for the possibility of losing cruise speed? There are a couple of PA-12s here on wheels which have difficulty keeping up. It has demonstrated 28 mph on the gps with no wind before landing tail low in the water. Slats alone would only raise the nose more, landing water rudders first (not a good idea). It's the forward section of the floats which are stressed for landing loads.

    PeteAirtoAir15Jan2014051.jpg
    Last edited by skywagon8a; 02-21-2019 at 06:19 AM.
    N1PA

  18. #58

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    I wonder how your opinions would change if you had some time in a Cub with slats and improved flaps? At least you’d have a basis for your opinion. That would be refreshing. If you don’t want them? No big deal.
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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by scaleram View Post
    I can tell you that the force to actuate the Keller flaps is huge compared to my old stock flaps. This is on a one-off Cub/Cruiser hybrid that I built. The Airframes Alaska supplied manual says to not deploy full flaps over 70MPH. I decided to not deploy any flaps above 65. I have three detents in the flap ratchet pawl. The last detent will extend the flaps to the maximum angle. The position of my flap handle is not ideal and it requires that to get full deployment the handle ends up behind the pilot. The force required to get the last notch makes it almost impossible to get. I even tried slowing the airplane to 45 and the force is still extremely high.

    Since my airplane is experimental, The didn't supply the doublers required by the STC. I was and still concerned that this should be a necessity on all kits. There is a huge load on the flap hangers with these flaps.

    Testing that I did with the second notch did produce significantly lower stall speed and deck angle. The manual states max deployment angle of 50 degrees on the second section. With the second notch I get 30 degrees and that is where I did my testing.

    BTW: Bill Rusk is right about what I call a point of diminishing returns when you install slat and slotted flaps. Consider where each is designed to work. The flaps are designed to work at lower angles, whereas the slats work at higher angles.
    How long are your flaps. I have installed 5 sets of the certified flaps and have seen no difference in the effort needed for deploying them.
    Steve Pierce

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I have installed 5 sets of the certified flaps and have seen no difference in the effort needed for deploying them.
    Five more sets and you might have this install deal figured out

  21. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by CamTom12 View Post
    ............Also, words have meanings. A split flap is different than a slotted or double slotted flap.
    That's exactly what I was thinking as I was reading down this thread.
    As I understand it, a "split flap" is like what the Cessna Airmaster has.
    I would call the Performance flaps a double-slotted or "compound" flap.
    Semantics, I know, but it really helps everyone understand things if we all use the same (correct) verbiage.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  22. #62
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    I'm always impressed by the energy and ingenuity of the people on this site. Always trying to build a better mouse trap - and sometimes doing it, like Keller flaps. Just the same, I gotta hand it to those "engineer types" at Piper way back when. 70 years later and we're still bustin' a gut trying to make near perfect even better.
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  23. #63
    Cubonaut875 SchulerJL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scaleram View Post
    I can tell you that the force to actuate the Keller flaps is huge compared to my old stock flaps. This is on a one-off Cub/Cruiser hybrid that I built. The Airframes Alaska supplied manual says to not deploy full flaps over 70MPH. I decided to not deploy any flaps above 65. I have three detents in the flap ratchet pawl. The last detent will extend the flaps to the maximum angle. The position of my flap handle is not ideal and it requires that to get full deployment the handle ends up behind the pilot. The force required to get the last notch makes it almost impossible to get. I even tried slowing the airplane to 45 and the force is still extremely high.

    Since my airplane is experimental, The didn't supply the doublers required by the STC. I was and still concerned that this should be a necessity on all kits. There is a huge load on the flap hangers with these flaps.

    Testing that I did with the second notch did produce significantly lower stall speed and deck angle. The manual states max deployment angle of 50 degrees on the second section. With the second notch I get 30 degrees and that is where I did my testing.

    BTW: Bill Rusk is right about what I call a point of diminishing returns when you install slat and slotted flaps. Consider where each is designed to work. The flaps are designed to work at lower angles, whereas the slats work at higher angles.

    There is definitely a higher force to pull full flaps with the Keller flaps with the shortened flap handle and It's difficult to get the leverage for the final notch. I had Dan Byker, Byker Aviation, Hawarden Iowa, fabricate a grip to fit over the flap handle - works great!

    FlapAssistSleve.jpgIMG_7451.jpgIMG_7452.jpeg

  24. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by SchulerJL View Post
    There is definitely a higher force to pull full flaps with the Keller flaps with the shortened flap handle and It's difficult to get the leverage for the final notch. I had Dan Byker, Byker Aviation, Hawarden Iowa, fabricate a grip to fit over the flap handle - works great!

    FlapAssistSleve.jpgIMG_7451.jpgIMG_7452.jpeg
    Did you have the shortened handle with the stock Piper flaps?
    Steve Pierce

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  25. #65
    Cubonaut875 SchulerJL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Did you have the shortened handle with the stock Piper flaps?
    No the shortened flap handle is only STC'd with the Keller flaps. There is no STC for the shortened flap handle with the stock flaps - if you want to keep to the rule book

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiskeyMike View Post
    I'm always impressed by the energy and ingenuity of the people on this site. Always trying to build a better mouse trap - and sometimes doing it, like Keller flaps. Just the same, I gotta hand it to those "engineer types" at Piper way back when. 70 years later and we're still bustin' a gut trying to make near perfect even better.
    those guys before and during ww11, got my utmost respect. the first one mustve taught a lot of lessons. mind boggling the inside of a radial engine.
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  27. #67
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    I was just trying to determine if you had an increase in flap handle force to deploy the Performance STOL (Keller Flaps) vs the stock flaps. I have not noticed a significant difference between the two as far as force to pull the handle. I have not shortened any of the handles on the airplanes I have installed the flaps on. Some may have been shortened previously.
    Steve Pierce

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  28. #68
    Cubonaut875 SchulerJL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I was just trying to determine if you had an increase in flap handle force to deploy the Performance STOL (Keller Flaps) vs the stock flaps. I have not noticed a significant difference between the two as far as force to pull the handle. I have not shortened any of the handles on the airplanes I have installed the flaps on. Some may have been shortened previously.

    The shortened handle is much better in a left crosswind for sure, but it is just more awkward to get that last notch in as you pull back to the seat. With the grip on the flap handle you can use the palm of your hand to push the flap button not your thumb. I think with the shortened handle there is definitely more force than the stock handle. It was difficult to get the last notch in above 50 MPH before I put the grip on the handle. Now 60 is no problem - 62 is too fast for them and no real reason to even pull them at 60 but it's nice to be able to. They are placarded not to pull above 70 - you would need a pretty big set of "guns" to pull it at 70 anyway.

  29. #69
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    Hmm, I guess I am just use to the short handle or I wonder if some airplanes take more force. I have been deploying the first notch at 70 and then as I slow down another notch and then the last. I will have to look at the speeds at which I pull each notch.
    Steve Pierce

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  30. #70

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    What is the actual white arch/flap operating speed in an -18? For some reason I haven’t paid much attention to the others I’ve flown and mine lacks a little in the placard department

  31. #71
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    Models PA-18S and PA-19S, 2 PCSM (Normal Category only), Approved May 9, 1950:
    Model PA-18S "125", 2 PCSM (Normal Category only) Approved October 25, 1950:
    Model PA-18S "135", 2 PCSM (Normal Category only), Approved May 15, 1952:
    Model PA-18AS "125", 2 PCSM (Normal Category only), Approved July 1, 1953:
    Model PA-18AS "135", 2 PCSM (Normal Category only), Approved July 1, 1953:
    PA-18S "105" (Special), same as PA-18S with the exceptions as listed in NOTE 3.

    Flaps extended (with Item 601) 80 mph

    Model PA-18 "150", 2 PCLM (Normal and Utility Categories), Approved October 1, 1954; Model PA-18A "150", 2 PCLM (Normal and Utility Categories), Approved October 1, 1954.

    Flaps extended 85 mph

    Models PA-18S and PA-19S, 2 PCSM (Normal Category only), Approved May 9, 1950:
    Model PA-18S "125", 2 PCSM (Normal Category only) Approved October 25, 1950:
    Model PA-18S "135", 2 PCSM (Normal Category only), Approved May 15, 1952:
    Model PA-18AS "125", 2 PCSM (Normal Category only), Approved July 1, 1953:
    Model PA-18AS "135", 2 PCSM (Normal Category only), Approved July 1, 1953:
    PA-18S "105" (Special), same as PA-18S with the exceptions as listed in NOTE 3.
    Flaps extended (with Item 601) 80 mphModel PA-18 "150", 2 PCLM (Normal and Utility Categories), Approved October 1, 1954;
    Model PA-18A "150", 2 PCLM (Normal and Utility Categories), Approved October 1, 1954.
    Flaps extended 85 mph Model PA-18S "150" and PA-18AS "150", 2 PCSM (Normal Category only), Approved
    October 1, 1954.

    Flaps extended (with Item 601) 80 mph
    Steve Pierce

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  32. #72
    Cubonaut875 SchulerJL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Hmm, I guess I am just use to the short handle or I wonder if some airplanes take more force. I have been deploying the first notch at 70 and then as I slow down another notch and then the last. I will have to look at the speeds at which I pull each notch.
    I would say that the first notch is no different from short handle to long handle in force required to pull. It's that last notch that's the problem with the short handle.




    White arc for standard is 85 MPH

    IMG_8011.jpg

  33. #73
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    I think the increased pull force with the Keller flaps and short handle is a good thing. It reminds me I need to be a bit slower.
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  34. #74
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SchulerJL View Post
    No the shortened flap handle is only STC'd with the Keller flaps. There is no STC for the shortened flap handle with the stock flaps - if you want to keep to the rule book
    minor mod, do it to most every one....

  35. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    minor mod, do it to most every one....
    Especially when wearing hip waders on floats. They tend to grab and hold things nearby you want to work.

    Gary

  36. #76
    Cubonaut875 SchulerJL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    minor mod, do it to most every one....

    That's what I thought - but I could not get anybody down here in middle earth to sign off on it.

  37. #77
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    I had to lengthen my flap handle because the loads were too high to easily release the 110" long flaps after take off.
    N1PA

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