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Thread: Anyone have experince with AQUA 3190s ?????

  1. #1
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    Anyone have experince with AQUA 3190s ?????

    I have flown various EDOs, PKs, Wips, Baumann and Aerocets. But I have NO experience with AQUA 3190s. Does anyone have any input... ???

    It is like NOBODY has ever owned or used a set..... Weird....
    Last edited by Alex Clark; 04-08-2018 at 03:39 PM.
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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Not me but long time local Fairbanks pilot/mechanic Tom Kishida had a set on a 185 and said he liked them. Tom's gone and plane changed hands and maybe floats. http://floatsalaska.com/index.php?ac...&listingID=292 They look similar to the PK 3K's.

    Maybe add a second set of chine booster angles like PK does?

    Gary
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 04-08-2018 at 04:09 PM.
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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    http://floatsalaska.com/index.php?ac...&listingID=292 They look similar to the PK 3K's.
    That's a good price for a set of floats. Since the picture makes them look like they are in decent shape, I assume that the price reflects their popularity. The water line indicates that they have plenty of buoyancy. Alex if you can get the serial numbers, call Terry Claggett and ask him whether they are the newer models or What? You might also try to find out if the bottom angle from the keel to the chine is less than the PKs. The PKs are good in rough water but the high bottom angle makes them not as good in smooth water in a small pond.
    http://aquafloat.com/contact-us/
    N1PA

  4. #4
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    There is also another set just 65 miles north of me. I am heading up to look at them now. They have been stored inside a hangar for years. These were made in 1982.
    https://anchorage.craigslist.org/avo...552170265.html

    I sent an e-mail to Terry last night but no answer yet.

    One thing about PKs and smooth water, they are wide and step turn like you are on railroad tracks. I was able to step-turn my way out of many smaller lakes with the PKs on glassy water.
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    Last edited by Alex Clark; 04-09-2018 at 12:40 PM.

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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Just a guess on my part but I would think that 1982 would be the later style, whatever that is.

    I had a pond next to my airport where I launched seaplanes. I installed a new set of PK 3500s on a new 206 and flew it out of this pond, light on fuel and with only one seat. Never again. The pond is 900 feet long. The 206 jumped right up on the step, but would not accelerate to take off speed. I had to go to full flaps to break water. I also flew a no flap 1933 Stinson SR Reliant on 4000s out of that pond. It was a lot better than the 206 on PKs.

    If you have no choice but to go straight out in a small pond I would not recommend PKs. EDOs no sweat. It's all in the shape of the bottoms.

    The rear fittings on those Aquas look just like the EDO rear fittings, You may be able to use your existing fittings without changing.
    N1PA

  6. #6
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    There is a BIG difference between the older PK-3500s and the PK-3500C models. The dead rise angle is better on the C models and they added another Hydro Booster to each side. ( four per float )

    One things that worries me able the Aquas is that I do not think they use anything to break up the water like the vee shaped boosters. ( i think EDO calls them a super charger)

    I just had to buy a new truck. The truck down payment was the money I had been saving for a set of AEROCET 3500Ls.... That would have fixed the problem...

    I am on hold again with Aqua. Another big question is: DO THE AQUA'S work with the 3190 pound Kenmore gross weight STC on a late model 180 ?????

  7. #7
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    The PKs which went on the 206 would have been the later version.

    Look up the STC for the Aquas as well as the STC for your Kenmore mods. If there is no restriction mentioned then they would be eligible on your 180. I would assume that they are eligible since they are approved on both the 180 & 185.
    N1PA

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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    From earlier post: http://floatsalaska.com/index.php?ac...&listingID=292 Scan through the images and see the bottoms and hull shape. Aqua's typically use a single long booster from a piece of angle but a second shorter one (~4') could easily be added between it and the keel like PK does.

    Gary

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    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    Well, they said they would call me back... They needed more info about my engine and prop.
    Apparently some of the changes that were made over the years were changes to the bottoms & boosters, adding another bulkhead, making the bottom metal thicker, adding a few more strengthening brackets inside. Plus they changed the corrosion preventative they used sometime along the line.
    and eliminating the old air tubes they used to have from the top deck to the keels. It was an attempt to suck air down along the keel and it did not work.

  10. #10
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    The 3190s are 19 feet, and 1.5 inches long from the back bulkhead to the back end of the bumper. I need to measure my 2960s for a comparison.

    MEANWHILE::::
    I am making slow but steady progress with resurrecting the old 2960s. One photo shows the cracked and de-lamninating automotive Bondo under the surface. The other photo shows one side after several courses of stripper and scrapping. You can still see some of the Bondo areas. I must have scraped off 5 pounds of Bondo from this one side. And I know the previous owner also removed a bunch of old Bondo when he owned them.
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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    What is the STC number for Aqua 3190s on 180/185s?
    N1PA

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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    What is the STC number for Aqua 3190s on 180/185s?
    SA349CE

    Gary

  13. #13
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    And of course I cannot find the text for that anyplace. The floats themselves claim a max aircraft gross eight of 3320 pounds.

  14. #14
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    SA328CE Robert A & Robert T & Hermoine B Claggett Install Model 180-185 aqua floats. 3A24 -- Cessna Aircraft Company --A185E,A185F,185D,185C,185B,185A,185,185E 
    SA349CE Robert A & Robert T & Hermoine B Claggett Installation of Aqua Model 180-85 floats. 5A6 -- Cessna Aircraft Company --180,180A,180B,180C,180D,180E,180F,180G,180H,180J,1 80K 


    Comments: http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=93079
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  15. #15
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    Another thing I was told this morning is that Aqua changed the struts at some point because people were complaining about the older models being nose low compared to some EDO installations. (diggng)
    But then again, I have personally witnessed a pilot on Aerocets repeatedly try to kill himself during landings and take-offs because he had no idea what he was doing.

  16. #16
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    Still waiting on word from Aqua regarding the gross weight and if it will work with my Kenmore STC.

  17. #17
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    Well this is a start:

    Hello Alex,
    I've fired off an email to the FAA asking them for their opinion. We have so many of these questions, and their take on most STC mods is that if the modification of the aircraft has not changed the model designation (your J model is still a J) , and there are no adverse flight characteristics, then it is ok (with the prop clearance thing we'd mentioned). I'll let you know what they say. The 3190 is approved to 2950 on your J model as is, and there is no difference between the installation for the 180 and the 185, which is approved to 3320, so the floats will take it just fine. Sorry we can't give you a definitive answer, but the world of STCs is a foggy place.

    Best Regards,
    Helen and Terry Claggett
    Aqua Float Company

  18. #18
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    I looked at both of the STCs which Gary posted and neither of them is showing the complete verbiage. Some STCs from the FAA web site do show the entire verbiage but these two do not. Terry is covering his rear but basically since the floats are approved at the higher weight on the 185 there would be no weight limitation on the 180. Without seeing the actual STC with something telling me otherwise, I would have no reservations in signing off the installation on your plane.
    N1PA

  19. #19
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    They would be legal to install since they are approved. Whether or not the gross weight remains legal at 3190 pounds would be an interesting question.
    My Kenmore STC says 3190 pounds on EDO 2960s. WipAire has their STC for Wip-3000s which specially says that it is compatible with Kenmore's STC http://www.kenmoreairharbor.com/uplo...a649nw_ref.pdf
    Aerocet did the same thing with their 3500L STC.
    I also asked PK and have received no answer.

    I guess another route would be to field approve them at the higher gross weight based upon their installation in C-185s and so-on.

    Just in case I am still stripping and scrubbing the old 2960s
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    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    If it would not be under-floated, she would really rip out of the water on an old light set of 2870s....

  21. #21
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Clark View Post
    My Kenmore STC says 3190 pounds on EDO 2960s. WipAire has their STC for Wip-3000s which specially says that it is compatible with Kenmore's STC http://www.kenmoreairharbor.com/uplo...a649nw_ref.pdf
    Aerocet did the same thing with their 3500L STC.

    I guess another route would be to field approve them at the higher gross weight based upon their installation in C-185s and so-on.
    The Kenmore STC is specific as to which model floats are applicable at the higher gross weight. Unless Terry can come up with something in writing from the FAA you would be limited to the lower weight. You could approach the FAA with all three of the STCs, using them as a basis they may be willing to give you a field approval at the 3190 lb weight.

    It looks as though you will need to use the 2960s if you want to operate at 3190 lbs without getting further certification of some sort.
    N1PA

  22. #22
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    It looks like Aerocet just added a sentence to their STC SA00137SE It looks like they amended it back in 2008

    "Those Cessna Model 180G, 180H, 180J and 180K airplanes equipped with the structural modifications defined in Kenmore Air Harbor STC No.
    SA649NW, Amendment dated July 14, 1984, may be operated on Aerocet Model 3500 or 3500L floats
    at gross weights up to 3190 lbs., subject to the limitations specified in Aerocet SAFM No. A-10022
    (180G and 180H), or A-10023 (180J and 180K), each dated January 22, 2001, or later FAA approved
    revision."

  23. #23
    C-FIJK's Avatar
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    I have complete set of installation drawings for 3190 on 180-185 !

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Clark View Post
    And of course I cannot find the text for that anyplace. The floats themselves claim a max aircraft gross eight of 3320 pounds.
    Gerry Marcil

    Every day spent flying is a great day !

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    skywagon8a, my old-time bush pilot friend, Henry Gates operating in northern Quebec, said the Reliant was his favourite aircraft for everything, floats, skis and wheels.

  25. #25
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    Well I have confirmation from AEROCET and WIPAIRE that their floats comply with the gross weight increase afforded by SA649SW. They specially mention it in the latest versions of their STCs.

    I also have confirmation that PK does not, nor do they plan to pursue it. Aqua does not currently, but they are looking into pursuing it.

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    Had 2 sets of them on 185's quite a few years back. The only thing that I liked was the flat tops. They really seemed to resist getting on the step with a heavy load and seemed to be prone to lots of leaks. Poorly designed in my option. Very difficult to get rid of. When old sets of 2960's were selling for $15,000 you could buy a mint set of 3190's for around $7000. Never saw anyone running them commercially. I wouldn't trade a set of beat up 2960's for a set of mint 3190's.

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    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    It looks like I will be stuck with the 2960s until I can find / afford some Aerocets. The Straight Wip 3000s cost darn near as much as the Aerocets.

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    As much as I like the Aerocets now I still really liked the 2960's. They are fast in the air and preform great once you get used to how to fly them. Not a fan of Whips. To short in the gear legs so prone to a lot of prop erosion. Sooner have a set of old 3430's.
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  29. #29
    G44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Clark View Post
    It looks like I will be stuck with the 2960s until I can find / afford some Aerocets. The Straight Wip 3000s cost darn near as much as the Aerocets.
    "stuck with"? Hmmmm, 2960's are a very good float. They require a technique for best performance which is not difficult to learn or accomplish. Great performing float and fast. The only float I would consider replacing 2960's on your 180 would be Aerocets. In the mean time until you can afford a set of Aerocets I don't think you will be terribly disappointed with the 2960's.

    Kurt
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  30. #30
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Another vote for 2960s. Learn to fly them, keep them within legal load limits, and you’ll learn to like them. I only flew a 185 on 3190s once many years ago, and they didn’t impress me at all, but I wasn’t sure it was floats, rigging, or airplane.

    Put those old EDOs to work....they’ll teach you a lot, and work hard in the process.

    MTV

  31. #31
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    Oh I have flown EDO 2960s.
    I just do not like the narrow tops for: 1. loading cargo & gear,... 2. the narrow hatch door,... 3. passenger movement without generating a law suit or.... 4. fishing from the plane. They are not my favorite float for step turns or heel beaching either. I much prefer the PK-3000 or 3500C for step turns, loading, fishing and heel beaching. ( Did you know they only made around 115 sets of PK-3000s)

    And the sides tend to dent rather easily on the 2960s compared to the thicker metal of the PKs. Something that comes into play when you have students docking 20 times a day.

    I do like the 2960s for idle taxi maneuvering and docking. Having the rudders way back in a different time zone really helps at low speeds. Plus the back ends sit low when the plane is loaded and gives you a good keel effect.

    Of course now that I have removed 10 pounds of 1960s era Bondo filler from all the dents in my 2960s, I will not have to worry about any extra dents. In fact maybe all the dents will make me go faster.\

    Now I need to finish removing all the old layers from the top decks. ( been do that for 3 days) and then I can start on the bottoms.

    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..

    PeterDillion: I do not think I can legally put 3430s on a 180. Even if it has the 185 fuselage and tail.
    Last edited by Alex Clark; 04-15-2018 at 02:20 PM.

  32. #32
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    I am sorta amazed this thread has gone on this long and there has not been one peep mentioned about one of the finest
    floats ever available for 180/185's. The PK 3000 ??? Alex if you have not flown them or know of them it would certainly
    be in your interest to look into them. When the old standard in Alaska was 2960's for private use, and 3430s on most commercial use, it amazed me how few guys knew about the awesome performance of PK 3000 floats???? The perform very similar to 2870/2960 getting onto the step in a hurry, do not require being "flap jacked" out of the water like 2960's
    (sorry Pete) and when fully loaded aft, the PK's have a LOT more aft floatations than either of those edos. If you don't believe it try walking two guys down to your water rudders and see what happens with 2960s! Super light the Edos really work nice but round tops suck to work off, the big flat 3430's are good but heavy........ PK 3500 are nice in really rough water; but really are a" completely different animal" than 3000's so don't put them in the same sentence as 3000's for lightly loaded performance. I don't want to run the Aquas down but but performance wise they are coming in low on the list for a reason........ They may have
    changed them some over the years but some of the 3190s I flew years ago felt a lot like early PK 3500's , heavy.
    If you got the denaro the Aerocets are the way; especially if your going super heavy all the time. But for instructing and general blasting around AK the 3000's are perfect. Reasonable price, terrific performance, nice to work off, superb aft floation, super effective water rudder control in swift river etc.
    Just for a reference the Maine Warden Service has been running C180's (2870's)since 1956; and 185's since the late 1960's(with every float ever built) and being a government operation; with very deep pockets; they could run ANY floats they
    want to, But after 62 years of banging around in Skywagons all of their aircraft; are on PK3000's. They are extremely popular back here yet you hardly ever see a set of them in Alaska??? I used to routinely operate a RSTOL 185 on Pk 3000 out of the 450' slew that was south off the mouth of Upper Talarick Ck , after dropping off clients in the early 90s. We also went in there with a real hot Beaver with the big Ag blade on it, but it's not a place you ever saw many floatplanes! Food for thought Alex! I see a set for sale in Canada
    for 8K if I were looking for set of floats for C180/185 I wouldn't hesitate to make the call.
    Good Luck
    e
    Last edited by TurboBeaver; 04-15-2018 at 09:21 PM.

  33. #33

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    Interesting info on the PK 3000. Never had a set but did hear good comments. Nice to have other good options. Had 3500C's they seemed heavy but were super tough and preformed decent. Pretty slow in the air but probably no worse that 3430's. We used to always run the 2960's with the back covers under water when taxiing admittedly not in real big water. While a lot of people pulled flaps we always would just stay at 2 notches and lift one float to avoid dragging the tails. With the same real heavy load the 3430's would get on the step faster but the 2960's were still airborne sooner and 8 - 10 knots faster. The biggest thing that the new floats offer is the great storage compartments and its hard to beat Aerocet on that one. Even the 2200's will take 4 gerry cans per side which is a real game changer.
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  34. #34
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    Actually they are mentioned in this thread.
    There are ONE set of PK-3000s locally and I love them. I have flown one other 180 on PK3000s as well. Great floats. They only made about 115 sets of PK-3000s according to the folks at PK. That is why almost NONE are up here.
    I even like the 3500"C"models.

    The problem is that the PK-3000s do not allow me to use my 3,190 pound legal gross weight on my modified 180J.

    In the old days it would have been easy to get a field approval based upon the fact that they have a higher gross weight on a C-185, and that basically my late model 180 with the big tail and bigger engine is basically the same airframe as a 185. Not so sure about it now. The best guy for field approvals down at the Juneau FISDO has gone elsewhere. Maybe if I had a few months to wait. which I do not...

    I was ordering a set of AEROCETS when the wife came looking over my shoulder.
    Wife: " Wow, only $8000 for those floats you always wanted?"
    ME; " Well that is just the down-payment deposit "
    Wife: "Let me see the total cost"
    ME .... CLICK
    WIFE: " %$@$%*__((& !!!!"
    ME: "Yeah they are kinda spendy but we can afford them."
    Wife: " There is no WE, in this deal. You already bought a new plane. Can you make enough this summer to cover that cost?"
    Me; " Ahhh. not really....But I was thinking ... "
    Wife: " Yeah, well I am not busting my ass to help with your %&*(()_ hobby job !! I wanna buy a house down south with a pool before I get too old !"
    Me; "Well its back to scrapping the paint off the old 2960s...".
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  35. #35

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    In five years the Aerocets will retain most of their initial acquisition value. 2960s? Good luck finding a buyer. It's all in how you look at it. It could be argued that brand new Aerocets are the better investment.

  36. #36
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    Weights installed on a 180 or 185
    EDO-2870s = 387 pounds
    EDO-2960s = 425 pounds
    PK-3000 = 424 pounds
    PK-3500C= 442 pounds
    CAP 3000s = 422 pounds
    Wipaire Straight 3000 = 432 pounds
    EDO 3430s = ?????? around 460 pounds.
    Aerocet 3500L = 448 pounds
    Wipaire straight 3450s = 491 pounds
    Last edited by Alex Clark; 04-16-2018 at 04:07 PM.

  37. #37
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    In five years the Aerocets will retain most of their initial acquisition value. 2960s? Good luck finding a buyer. It's all in how you look at it. It could be argued that brand new Aerocets are the better investment.
    And less likely to have a 75 year old fishing client with a gamey leg bust his or her knee by slipping off the top of the floats.

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    That's up to your insurer.

  39. #39
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    When I got my instrument rating at Kenmore in 1979, I worked on the ramp to earn extra money and get the 50% discount it offered at the time. I stayed with Greg Munro. They had about half dozen C 180s on 2960's that flew charter
    everyday that I used to get my rating. The 2960s were weird to me and I didn't like them compared to 2870s. And having just gotten done flying a 185 on PK3000's I really didn't like them......I almost sent Bill Peters , Jerry Rader, and Greg into cardiac arrest raving about PK 3000 floats!! Of course being Edos big outlet on the west coast, droning on about PK 3000s
    really was not politically correct especially when your staying with the Munro's! The original prototype of the 3000 was a 2950, and I am not sure what they changed to the 3000 but do know this, a post 64 C 180 on 2960's heavily loaded aft is sorta a "sinking ship" compared to the same exact load on PK 3000s . Regardless of what is on the data tags. Getting broadside in big whitecaps in a later C180 on 2960s heavly loaded aft isn't a good place to be. (Even with insurance and a wet suit) We flew 206's out of Fiji when the standard load on PK 3500Cs was 3 passengers, 3 heavy suitcases, when the air temp was often in the 90 degree range, and flat calm common! Now that will brings a whole new meaning to the term "the slippery spot" lol. Not to pick on Edos as the reverse is true, with a Cub on Edo 2000 vs PK 1800s while the data tags indicate 200lbs of extra floatations for the Edos it will feel more like 500lbs extra rocking around in big swells; I found 1800s
    to be almost identical to 1650's as far as what they hold up.
    For me if you are running a business and going heavy all the time and handling many hundreds of thousands of dollars every summer where a write off would be advantageous than stepping up for a plate full of $35,000 Aerocets is the only
    thing on the menu! But for a smaller operation not needing the write off, or hauling max loads constantly, in big wind conditions. The PK 3000 is the answer, especially when they are down to $7/8 k............ jm2cw
    Last edited by TurboBeaver; 04-18-2018 at 07:19 AM.

  40. #40
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Turbo,
    All of what you've said is correct with one important exception. Alex needs a set of floats in order to utilize his higher gross weight legally. The PK 3000s don't allow this.
    N1PA
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