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Thread: Catto update.and ??

  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by WanaBNACub View Post
    Steve, it is the new version of the old Sensenich wood prop. That is what I have been running.

    Where’d the lightbar mounted to the gear come from? Is it separate from the landing lights and how big of a difference does it make?

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by WanaBNACub View Post
    Mine is the W80DM-44 wood/fiberglass with the nickel edge and tip. It pulls very similar or maybe a little harder, with better static and better cruise than the 1A200. I dont have the numbers for a 150/160, but my 180 cruises at 104 at 2450 on 35's, and static was 2580. Climbs around 2600. I am sure it will not hold up to the brush like an aluminum prop, although I haven't babied it and so far it is doing well. And at 30# lighter than a 1A200 with the same or better performance it definitely is working well for me so far.
    Called yesterday about using the Sensenich composite prop on my Pacer O320-160. Price of the prop is $3850 including prop bolts and the required spacers, plus $400 for the STC from Trimmer Aviation. Total $4,250. This appears to be the only legal alternative to the experimental Cato. For a long prop, the only legal alternative is a Boer prop, 82-41 to 82-45.


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  3. #43

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    Trimmerís website only lists the Sensenich STC for an O-360. Does Eddie have an STC for the O-320 as well?


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  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bender View Post
    Trimmerís website only lists the Sensenich STC for an O-360. Does Eddie have an STC for the O-320 as well?


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    Yes.....


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  5. #45

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    Exchanged emails with Eddie Trimmer this morning. He has not added the O-320 to his Sensenich wood prop STC. For now it’s just the O-360.
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  6. #46

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    What's the good word on Certified from Cato?
    Last edited by OLDCROWE; 02-26-2019 at 12:16 PM.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

  7. #47

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    Glad to be E-AB.

    My Catto 84-36 should arrive in a couple of weeks. It will replace a Borer 82-42. I'll try to get some performance numbers.
    Last edited by NunavutPA-12; 02-25-2019 at 08:56 PM.
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by NunavutPA-12 View Post
    Glad to be E-AB.

    My Catto 84-36 should arrive in a couple of weeks. It will replace a Borer 82-42. I'll try to get some performance numbers.
    I bet you will love that Catto! You will instantly notice the CG advantage in your 12. First time you land light, you will notice your elevators more effective. Smooth as silk. They pull like a BULL.

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  9. #49
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    Earl, ever try a wirlwind prop ?

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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by OLDCROWE View Post
    What's the good word on Certified from Cato?
    Two weeks ago Craig said they have been consumed by a large government contract and will get back on the certification process in March.
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  11. #51
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    It's been right around the corner for about 6 yrs. now.
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !

  12. #52
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    Earl, ever try a wirlwind prop ?

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    Tim,
    I have not, but a bunch of my Cub friends have, and they ALL really like them.
    Last edited by TurboBeaver; 03-06-2019 at 12:35 PM.

  13. #53
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    That's why I bought one, one friend with an exp. supercub and another friend with a 2+2 bought them and were impressed
    Last edited by Tim; 03-06-2019 at 01:20 PM.
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  14. #54
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    Hope to try a Whirlwind this spring a good friend just bought an 80".
    Last edited by TurboBeaver; 03-06-2019 at 12:55 PM.
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurboBeaver View Post
    Hope to try a Whirlwind this spring a good friend just bought an 80".
    What engine does he have?

    On the fence myself.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by CamTom12 View Post
    What engine does he have?

    On the fence myself.
    He has a 160+ with 10/1 pistons, tuned exhaust, etc.
    I think Craig Catto recomends the
    Big 84/37 for the 160 as the floatplane prop. The 84/36 on the 150hp. Both are proven performers.
    With the Whirlwind you just need to decide if you need the 80" or 82" for your mission? Either way there is CG advantage in a 12 to get that weight off the nose. Friend calls his Whirlwind; his ground adjustable Catto prop! Lol.

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  17. #57

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    Delivery of my Catto prop delayed by two weeks. They must be busy!

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by NunavutPA-12 View Post
    Delivery of my Catto prop delayed by two weeks. They must be busy!
    Hi Larry. What's your plan for a test between props?

    Gary

  19. #59

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    Thought I'd make a note of static RPM, rate of climb, RPM and airspeed at cruise with the Borer, then switch to the Catto and do the same.

    Hopefully, I can get two consecutive days of similar atmospheric conditions.
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  20. #60
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    Do you have a place with undisturbed snow to note takeoff under similar condx? We played with that for a couple planes and switched props.

    Gary
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  21. #61

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    I'm on wheel-skis right now so I'll be using our gravel runway.
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  22. #62
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    Gary, maybe he could download that accelerator app you had... that looks pretty cool to me!!
    John

  23. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardtailjohn View Post
    Gary, maybe he could download that accelerator app you had... that looks pretty cool to me!!
    John
    Here's what we discussed on the Taylorcraft Forum. It's a potential means to capture and analyze acceleration data obtained with either Android or I-Phones that have imbedded G-sensors. They use that for sensing phone position and other diagnostic and display stuff. It may have potential for testing props and other power alterations. JimC mentioned it and I looked it up but am no expert...but interested.

    "Briefly my wife consented to download an acceleration app from Apple to her I-Phone. Three axis X-Y-Z planes with + and - G values ref to phone position. Start run and stop run plots a stream of 3-axis data. Others offer plotting software to export and plot the results. Will cost me a dinner for two her choice.

    https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/acce...499629589?mt=8
    https://developer.apple.com/document...rometer_events

    JimC have you experimented with this tech? It's like ...why is this news? I would have thought the builders and modders would have figured a way to apply this to their alterations by now and discussed it.


    Gary"
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 03-13-2019 at 10:49 PM.
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  24. #64
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    Here's what preceded the suggestion by Jim C for an accelerometer. Time stamped it might add to the readily available Butt Dyno Method of prop testing. In my experience some props go flat early as far as pull during takeoff and climb. Pitch (fixed or variable) can help bracket the optimum performance window I believe. It's more noticeable on low power engines due to the extended takeoff and climb. Yes power increases as rpms rise but probably not with a jump like I've seen on my Taylorcraft.

    "The critical point for me about power and props is on floats when going from a step-plow to planing and then accelerating to takeoff speed. There's lots of water drag to overcome unlike on wheels. I'd have to guess that's 15-40 mph but so far never tried a GPS to pin that down better. It would take an onboard camera looking at or integrating the GPS' speed/time readout and plane's attitude out the windshield.

    Taxiing slightly nose up, then the bow rise to plowing under power followed by nose down as the floats climb up to a planing attitude just like a boat. Light that's a quick event but heavy it can take several long seconds if it ever happens. Sometimes weight reduction is the only way to get on step.

    On skis takeoff distance can be measured via tracks in the snow. That would be another way to compare propeller and power performance especially if the snow were deep.

    With the right diameter and pitch the "air traction" can be felt especially with puny power from these small Continentals. The plane suddenly accelerates at some forward speed after power application. When that surge happens during takeoff can be adjusted via propeller pitch at a fixed prop diameter, and probably between propellers of the same diameter and pitch configuration between manufacturers (the prop's airfoils, shape, and chord vary).

    Doing a static pull at 0 forward speed is a crude way to determine performance with my high drag criteria."

    Gary

  25. #65
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    Gary,
    Some darn good suggestions there! Our assessment of composite blades is there must certainly be ALOT more flexing in them than an Aluminum blade. And you should notice more of an RPM increase as your rolling from static
    thru rotation, Most guys see Less rpm with their Catto over their Borer static. But usually report similar rpm by lift
    off. Often notice slightly higher numbers in climb out.....
    And regardless of what the tach is reading static, if you can turn it up (or over) redline when wideopen in level flight; you are close to being pitched correctly for your outfit! The fact that almost all the top dogs winning T/O contest in late years using composite props, speaks for
    Itself! Back 30 years ago when lots of folks were just finding out in lower 48, about Roger Borers prop. They all
    thought they had " gone to heaven" and a common discribtion was they had found "another 20hp".
    If your an old 82/42 Borer man, try the big Catto 84/36
    It will be an eyeopener for sure. Watch this thread when Larry gets his bolted on. Bet the old Borer gets stood in the corner as a "spare prop"........
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  26. #66
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    One theory of fixed pitch props is they experience increased AOA as rpms increase, and decreased AOA when forward speed and airflow increase. Blades are twisted and airfoil shaped by design to maintain AOA and improve thrust across its span while keeping vibes and bending acceptable. Lots of black magic goes on there.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7hyrD9-R4A

    For fixed pitch metal props on floatplanes the change in AOA and resulting thrust can often be heard as the plane goes from idle to planing. At first there's lots of noisy popping sounds while getting on the step as static rpm is reached. I assume the blades are partially stalled or at least inefficient due to AOA. As speed and airflow increase (providing the plane can get on step due to load and power) AOA decreases as the video implies and thrust improves with resulting acceleration. The prop sound smooths out and the plane might eventually takeoff.

    However too flat a pitch can result in decreased thrust at some airspeed. It's a compromise we experience with a fixed pitch prop. I like to see redline at WFO as well.

    What composites do in the same situation I don't know. Performance reports indicate their magic works, but sometimes how and why isn't as important as the results. Experimenting with acceleration measurements might offer some clues if the data can be plotted versus stage of flight.

    Gary

  27. #67
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    Good stuff there Gary.......
    In summary maybe we should just call a Catto prop,
    "Pure Magic" on a Cub?

  28. #68
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Here's what we discussed on the Taylorcraft Forum. It's a potential means to capture and analyze acceleration data obtained with either Android or I-Phones that have imbedded G-sensors. They use that for sensing phone position and other diagnostic and display stuff. It may have potential for testing props and other power alterations. JimC mentioned it and I looked it up but am no expert...but interested.

    "Briefly my wife consented to download an acceleration app from Apple to her I-Phone. Three axis X-Y-Z planes with + and - G values ref to phone position. Start run and stop run plots a stream of 3-axis data. Others offer plotting software to export and plot the results. Will cost me a dinner for two her choice.

    https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/acce...499629589?mt=8
    https://developer.apple.com/document...rometer_events

    JimC have you experimented with this tech? It's like ...why is this news? I would have thought the builders and modders would have figured a way to apply this to their alterations by now and discussed it.


    Gary"
    not that i have time or extra brainpower at the moment.... but I write IOS apps, what would the ideal app look like & track?? doubt there's a big enough market to make it worth writing..(or for apple to approve it after I spend time writing it!!)

  29. #69
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    not that i have time or extra brainpower at the moment.... but I write IOS apps, what would the ideal app look like & track?? doubt there's a big enough market to make it worth writing..(or for apple to approve it after I spend time writing it!!)
    I'm not a programmer or engineer, but I wonder if acceleration data collected during takeoff can be formatted to describe the performance of one propeller configuration. And if desired, over another during a similar event? Same conditions for each test plus gross weight as light anything can elevate quickly.

    It can be demonstrated already via time for takeoff or ground distance travelled like Valdez. But what might be interesting is where in that event does each prop's efficiency max out and acceleration change. Like a race...some start slow then speed up versus others that start fast then slow down? At some point it's potentially a tied race.

    Beyond that there's the rate of climb after takeoff. Does one prop's thrust and advance rate maintain or increase once airborne while comparatively the other's work is almost over? That's what happens with a fixed pitch...it's a design choice. Manufacturers offer a range of pitch and diameter to fit the need with fixed pitch props.

    I don't know if it's worthwhile over what's already done. Compare these factors> takeoff time - distance - capture acceleration versus time and plot extracted from a source like a phone or ? - then rate of climb at target airspeed. Note which prop performed the best where desired.

    JimC mentioned in the Taylorcraft Forum that race cars use this tech but he didn't elaborate how and then what. I'll leave it for discussion.

    Gary
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  30. #70
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    Catto update.and ??

    Personally I think it would be extremely hard to get good data without sophisticated software, numerous sensors, and a lot of time(experience).
    They have sold G meters for street cars for years before the iPhone was invented, and while the phone is now way more powerful, youíre dealing with air, not pavement.
    Traction on the ground can allow sensors to see extremely small changes in acceleration rates, rotating wheel load, and just about any force applied onto the vehicle or road.
    When dealing with air, you might be better off to start with fluid dynamics of water, and then divide it down by 784 times to see the effect on air.

    In regards to composite props, a couple of notes Iíve not seen mentioned. One is composite builds allow for designs they can not achieve with metal, due to issues with harmonics, vibration and fatigue. So guys can get real creative to address different aspect of the flight realm. The blade diameters and profiles are such weíve never seen before in metal props. Simply awesome stuff.

    The other is I believe a composite prop ideally suited for your application should flex (twist, flatten, etc) under heavy load!such as takeoff and climb, and then ďunloadĒ in cruise, increasing pitch to allow for more bite. One example was a Catto prop I tested, and while it was too much prop for my power output, after leveling off into cruise attitude and letting the speed build up to its stabilised pace, approximately 30-40 seconds later the rpm would drop slightly and the airplane would pick up 3-5 mph. I attribute this to the ability of the layup to flex, or twist under load.
    Also, props that are cut down to resize to your engine are not an ideal profile. If itís not designed for your power, airframe and application, than itís a compromise.

    I have stated this before, and as before, itís just my opinion. And that is I believe Catto, through lots of trial and error, has been able to find blade profiles that works extremely well on a few engine and airframe combos. I donít believe itís as straightforward as a math formula, because as many owners will tell you, it often takes 2-3 props to find the right one from them. And thatís on a 320 or 360. Ask them to prop a different horsepower, and their method of deciding which prop to use is ďhow fast do you want to go at what rpm?Ē Instead is basing a selection on power and drag, they use the simple formula of a screw turning through the air. Without slippage, the blade travels forward with every rotation the number of its pitch. Multiple by rpm and you get speed. They just work backwards, assuming your aircraft has plenty of horsepower and no drag. Therefore itís easier to make it work on high hp applications. And impossible to work on small hp applications. Add that to the fact that they keep no database of what prop ended up working best on Buckys Backyard Bomber running a 428CJ motor, and now they donít even have a baseline to build on, other then someoneís memory.

    I could go on but Iím severely digressing from the original response. And that is, pretty hard to measure quantifiably.

    Want to find the best prop for an application? Buy or borrow a composite ground adjustable prop of the appropriate diameter. Dial it in on your airplane, and then either buy your own, or order a composite prop to that spec.


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  31. #71
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Nothing like deep snow to test a prop. Same for floats. Time or distance easy to measure.

    In these parts a Catto is like a cat that draws the ramp dogs. Maybe that will eventually change.

    Gary
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