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  1. #41
    high time cub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    Most time I'm too stupid to understand the why's and what's that make it work. But I'm lazy enough to figure out what it likes to make it work, my bad

    Glenn

    Glenn,

    I don’t want to nudge you too far out of your comfort zone, but all you have to do is look at the external workings of the stone-simple Apollo impulse to understand how it works.

    The lower arrow in photo 1 shows a catch-weight (pawl) resting in its slot on the Apollo impulse coupling. There are two catch-weights 180° apart. As the name implies, they engage by weight alone. The upper arrow points to the non-impulse, direct drive coupling on the right mag.

    The left arrow in photo 2 shows the direction of rotation. The right arrow points to the very shallow step or catch. As a catch-weight approaches the 12 o’clock position, it falls within its slot and is then caught by the step. Once caught, the internal impulse spring is wound for start-up. This engagement is rather tenuous and the shallow step is easily jumped by the catch weight if the rotation is too fast. Furthermore, since these parts are open to the environment, the step area and catch-weights need to be kept super clean and dry. A film of oil can keep a catch-weight from free-falling and even the slightest ramp of oily dirt at the step will make the catch-weight jump free like a California skateboarder.

    The impulse stops functioning when the Kinner is turned faster than 80 r.p.m.

    The next time you’re near Mark’s Fleet, open the left cowl door and check-out the Apollo.

    Best,


    HT & V

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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by high time cub View Post
    Glenn,

    I don’t want to nudge you too far out of your comfort zone, but all you have to do is look at the external workings of the stone-simple Apollo impulse to understand how it works.

    The lower arrow in photo 1 shows a catch-weight (pawl) resting in its slot on the Apollo impulse coupling. There are two catch-weights 180° apart. As the name implies, they engage by weight alone. The upper arrow points to the non-impulse, direct drive coupling on the right mag.

    The left arrow in photo 2 shows the direction of rotation. The right arrow points to the very shallow step or catch. As a catch-weight approaches the 12 o’clock position, it falls within its slot and is then caught by the step. Once caught, the internal impulse spring is wound for start-up. This engagement is rather tenuous and the shallow step is easily jumped by the catch weight if the rotation is too fast. Furthermore, since these parts are open to the environment, the step area and catch-weights need to be kept super clean and dry. A film of oil can keep a catch-weight from free-falling and even the slightest ramp of oily dirt at the step will make the catch-weight jump free like a California skateboarder.

    The impulse stops functioning when the Kinner is turned faster than 80 r.p.m.

    The next time you’re near Mark’s Fleet, open the left cowl door and check-out the Apollo.

    Best,


    HT & V

    Thanks, I learned about this on Marks Fleet when we were together at the Marcellus Flyin. Mark has a starter on his Kinner but I have a small addiction for propping antique engines. So he was ready to go home and I wanted to prop him and he wanted to push the button and be done with me. But I won out and he agreed to allow me to fondle one of Sensenichs works of art. After about 10 minutes of enthusiastic flipping I was showing some wear. So Mark in his typical obnoxious plumbers customer reply voice says " pull it slowly " and laughs like a girlscout. That darn 5 cylinder Harley wannabe fired right up. I hate flying plumbers. You can't trust any biplane guys, Mr Ed was trying to get his Tiger Moth started just before dark to fly home and wore himself out trying to start a flooded engine. I told him to get in and I would get him going. That thing was so flooded that I flipped it for 15 minutes before he realized that the fuel had been turned off the whole time.

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  3. #43
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    ..... Mark has a starter on his Kinner but I have a small addiction for propping antique engines....
    Never heard of a starter on a Kinner before.
    A friend of mine has a Kinner on her biplane--
    it's actually kinda dangerous IF you don't know how easily they fire.
    That prop should never even be touched with the mags on IMHO--
    not hard for it to fire just moving the prop to a more advantageous position.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  4. #44
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    That prop should never even be touched with the mags on IMHO--
    not hard for it to fire just moving the prop to a more advantageous position.
    I knew a fellow who lost two fingers doing just that on a PT-22.
    N1PA

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    I knew a fellow who lost two fingers doing just that on a PT-22.
    At the angle it sits your kneecaps are fair game anytime you move it

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  6. #46

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    I'm a new Pmag guy and just reading about setting them up. Which leads to a question. Is your Emag set for RMSD? If your mechanical mag is grounded by the switch and your Emag is set for the start delay it might explain your issue.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    I'm a new Pmag guy and just reading about setting them up. Which leads to a question. Is your Emag set for RMSD? If your mechanical mag is grounded by the switch and your Emag is set for the start delay it might explain your issue.
    stewartb, His issue started when he changed the prop and the engine turned faster while cranking. When hand propping it starts normally. This is screaming as an issue of the fly weights on the impulse turning too fast to engage.
    N1PA
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    stewartb, His issue started when he changed the prop and the engine turned faster while cranking. When hand propping it starts normally. This is screaming as an issue of the fly weights on the impulse turning too fast to engage.

    I havent had had a chance to swap those p leads around yet Pete. I have been up to my armpits in carbon fibre making those windows and doors. It has turned into a mammoth job. Filling and fairing my first attempt. If I ever made them again it would probably take me a quarter of the time. But happy with the expected result. Very spiffy!

    My LAME said to just remove the bridge on the back of the starter switch and then it will start on both impulse and Emag.
    Back Country O-375 wide body extended wing cub

  9. #49
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgoldy View Post
    My LAME said to just remove the bridge on the back of the starter switch and then it will start on both impulse and Emag.
    That is the correct and simplest thing to do. Then when you use the electric starter it will start on the Pmag and when you prop it by hand the impulse coupling magneto will do the starting.
    N1PA

  10. #50
    AkPA/18's Avatar
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    CGoldy

    Maybe you could just remove the P lead on the Impulse mag. This might better troubleshoot if it is the mag or the switch issue? If it starts it might be the switch and if not it might be the mag problem with too fast of rotation.

    Mark
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgoldy View Post
    I havent had had a chance to swap those p leads around yet Pete. I have been up to my armpits in carbon fibre making those windows and doors. It has turned into a mammoth job. Filling and fairing my first attempt. If I ever made them again it would probably take me a quarter of the time. But happy with the expected result. Very spiffy!

    My LAME said to just remove the bridge on the back of the starter switch and then it will start on both impulse and Emag.
    Just curious, what's the initial timing of the Emag?
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !

  12. #52
    AkPA/18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgoldy View Post
    So if I was to do the same, replace with switches and a button, how could I disable the aircraft to satisfy CASA's. (FAA) security concerns?
    Hello Cgoldy,

    I keep rereading this thread hoping you have figured it out LOL. I came onto this question. Not sure what CASA requirements are but you could just use the keyswitch as the starter button in combo with standard mag switches. Would that work for you?

    Mark
    http://thrustline.com/

    Takeoffs are optional--Landings are mandatory

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by AkPA/18 View Post
    Hello Cgoldy
    Is your keyswitch an ACS. If so that is a common symptom of it going bad. I believe there might be a repair kit for that key switch. Also I believe there is a service bulletin or possibly an AD on that switch. This is just from several of my friends that have had that problem. You are not the only one. If not an ACS disregard

    Mark
    I just complied with that AD a few weeks ago. $17.00 for parts and 20 min of labor.


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  14. #54
    high time cub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    I knew a fellow who lost two fingers doing just that on a PT-22.
    A Kinner gave a friend of mine eight black-and-blue fingers. It took a year for all of his fingernails to grow back. He was lucky. I know of others that have been hurt.

    There is only one safe, fool-proof way to hand-prop a Kinner. Using this method, a low compression, cold Kinner will start 10 out of 10 times on the very first pull and you'll come away with all your body parts intact.

    First off, it’s important to know that only the top three Kinner cylinders (1, 2 & 5) are plumbed for priming. Secondly, prop indexing on a 5 cylinder Kinner can be confusing to the uninitiated; knowing where blade 1 and 2 are in relation to each cylinder’s power cycle is important. Neither primed cylinder #2 or primed cylinder # 5 will provide a safe, convenient propping position. That leaves primed cylinder #1 (at the 12 o’clock location).

    The firing order is 1-3-5-2-4; visualize a star pattern.

    With the usual safe propping procedures in place:

    1) Clear the lower cylinders of any oil, then set prop blade #2 at the 7-8 o’clock position so that prop blade #1 is set to fire cylinder #1. The Apollo impulse will be in pre-position for the wind-up and snap. Do not disturb this prop position.

    2) With the piston now positioned near the top of cylinder #1 (valves closed), enter a sufficient fuel charge into this constricted space with 4-5 primer strokes. Long-stroke, 5 inch bore Kinners like a good shot of fuel to get them going. A partial charge will cause a strong kick-back.

    3) With the left mag on (and all your body parts safely outside the prop arc), all that’s needed is a steady horizontal pull with your left hand on blade #2. The Apollo will do its thing, cylinder #1 will literally go off like a shotgun blast and you will be calmly walking toward the left wing.

    The Kinner is an outlier. Propping blade #2 from the classic 10 o’clock position with two hands on the prop while standing in or near the prop arc is what causes most Kinner propping accidents. The hair-trigger Apollo and primed cylinder #5 are just waiting to nail you. Oh, and primed cylinder #2 is next in the firing order, so it’s bam-bam got your hand(s).

    The long prop on a Kinner swings 144° between each power stroke. Each blade covers a lot of real estate in a blink of the eye. Kinners have a well deserved reputation for hurting hand-proppers. Older Kinner operators would say it’s not a matter of if, but when.

    Hope this will help keep someone out there from getting hurt. Stay safe.

    Best,

    HT & V
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  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by high time cub View Post
    A Kinner gave a friend of mine eight black-and-blue fingers. It took a year for all of his fingernails to grow back. He was lucky. I know of others that have been hurt.

    There is only one safe, fool-proof way to hand-prop a Kinner. Using this method, a low compression, cold Kinner will start 10 out of 10 times on the very first pull and you'll come away with all your body parts intact.

    First off, it’s important to know that only the top three Kinner cylinders (1, 2 & 5) are plumbed for priming. Secondly, prop indexing on a 5 cylinder Kinner can be confusing to the uninitiated; knowing where blade 1 and 2 are in relation to each cylinder’s power cycle is important. Neither primed cylinder #2 or primed cylinder # 5 will provide a safe, convenient propping position. That leaves primed cylinder #1 (at the 12 o’clock location).

    The firing order is 1-3-5-2-4; visualize a star pattern.

    With the usual safe propping procedures in place:

    1) Clear the lower cylinders of any oil, then set prop blade #2 at the 7-8 o’clock position so that prop blade #1 is set to fire cylinder #1. The Apollo impulse will be in pre-position for the wind-up and snap. Do not disturb this prop position.

    2) With the piston now positioned near the top of cylinder #1 (valves closed), enter a sufficient fuel charge into this constricted space with 4-5 primer strokes. Long-stroke, 5 inch bore Kinners like a good shot of fuel to get them going. A partial charge will cause a strong kick-back.

    3) With the left mag on (and all your body parts safely outside the prop arc), all that’s needed is a steady horizontal pull with your left hand on blade #2. The Apollo will do its thing, cylinder #1 will literally go off like a shotgun blast and you will be calmly walking toward the left wing.

    The Kinner is an outlier. Propping blade #2 from the classic 10 o’clock position with two hands on the prop while standing in or near the prop arc is what causes most Kinner propping accidents. The hair-trigger Apollo and primed cylinder #5 are just waiting to nail you. Oh, and primed cylinder #2 is next in the firing order, so it’s bam-bam got your hand(s).

    The long prop on a Kinner swings 144° between each power stroke. Each blade covers a lot of real estate in a blink of the eye. Kinners have a well deserved reputation for hurting hand-proppers. Older Kinner operators would say it’s not a matter of if, but when.

    Hope this will help keep someone out there from getting hurt. Stay safe.

    Best,

    HT & V
    Lots of good stuff for Kinners here. So now, what about a K5 with no impulse coupling? A friend has a Hammond 100 (Parks P1H) with a K5 and no impulse. We are in the process of reassembly after trucking it from MI to MD and hope to have it back in the air shortly. Any and all advice is appreciated!


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  16. #56
    high time cub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    Lots of good stuff for Kinners here. So now, what about a K5 with no impulse coupling? A friend has a Hammond 100 (Parks P1H) with a K5 and no impulse. We are in the process of reassembly after trucking it from MI to MD and hope to have it back in the air shortly. Any and all advice is appreciated!


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    Hi Dave,

    Ah, a Kinner powered Parks P1H…Kool!

    On the early K-5s, the left PN5D mag could be drilled to accept the optional Apollo impulse coupling. Check the numbers on your left mag, F-61A mags were drilled.

    Otherwise, the spark should be fully advanced for hand propping.

    Best,

    HT & V





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  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by high time cub View Post
    Hi Dave,

    Ah, a Kinner powered Parks P1H…Kool!

    On the early K-5s, the left PN5D mag could be drilled to accept the optional Apollo impulse coupling. Check the numbers on your left mag, F-61A mags were drilled.

    Otherwise, the spark should be fully advanced for hand propping.

    Best,

    HT & V





    Jim,
    I forget what mags are on it, but the owner had some issues when he re-installed it after making a new drive. I think that’s fixed now, but still no impulse. We searched all over last fall trying to find an impulse with no luck. It is an early K5 on it, and he has a core B5 that he may swap for an overhauled B5. I’d have to do the engineering approval to install it, but it may be a better engine for this airplane since the K5 is an unknown quantity even though the log book says not many hours since overhaul.

    David


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