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Thread: American Legend vs Cub Crafters

  1. #1

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    American Legend vs Cub Crafters

    First, hello everyone. I am new to the Cub world. All my time has been in a DA40 or RV-10, and I finally got tired of watching all the fun you guys were having in these damn YouTube videos, so if you can't beat them....join them.

    I am looking at buying a fun STOL plane to get comfortable and learn in, and then go do some fun, safe stuff.

    I have narrowed my search to the 180 HP AL Super Legend XP, or a CC SS. I was originally also looking at a Savage Shock, but would honestly not fly their plane if they gave it to me for free. I have also considered a Highlander and SuperStol, but a builder I am not.

    I am curious as to how these companies rate against each other, build quality, fit & finish, durability, etc. I tried the search function, but there isn't much dealing with these two companies lately.

    I AM NOT trying to start any kind of brand war, just looking for some honest feedback.

    Again, HELLO and thank you for the input and advice.

    Chad
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    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Welcome, lots to learn here while having fun.

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

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    Where you flying??

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    If I had unlimited bucks, a Carbon Cub. Since I don't, a J-3 with Stroker suits me fine. I do like the Legend, but it is just a brand new J-3 with a Stroker -er, O-200.

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    Don, I am located in northern, California, near Idaho, Nevada, and Oregon.
    Sorry for the dumb questions, I'm an FNG!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    If I had unlimited bucks, a Carbon Cub. Since I don't, a J-3 with Stroker suits me fine. I do like the Legend, but it is just a brand new J-3 with a Stroker -er, O-200.
    Bob, so why would you go with the CC if you had unlimited bucks, over the AL? Thanks!

    Chad
    Sorry for the dumb questions, I'm an FNG!
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  7. #7
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    If I had unlimited bucks, a Carbon Cub. Since I don't, a J-3 with Stroker suits me fine. I do like the Legend, but it is just a brand new J-3 with a Stroker -er, O-200.
    Bob, the super legend that he asked about is more like a lighter CC Top Cub? And 80K cheaper then a Carbon Cub



    Glenn
    Last edited by cubdriver2; 02-14-2018 at 01:48 PM.
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  8. #8
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Welcome to the dark side of aviation!

    Sounds like you have knowledge of aviation, but in good SC.org order, we must attempt to sell you on all of the myriad of options out there that might do you a better job, or what we prefer.

    Seriously, you say you want FUN. Ok, please quantify that. Bob there might think it is fun to do the pattern normal yet inverted, he likes the Decathlon; Glenn, he likes super complicated aircraft circa Orvill and Wilbur flew- one mag switch, throttle, stick and if he feels studly uses his feet on occasion; Capt'n John, he does it all, but changes from a J-3 to the RV, depending on his mission, but flew jets in his other life.

    So 'fun' is a bit different for each of us. My life got really complicated when we added the second dog and did not fit in the cub. I went 4 seat, and while it will go places other's wont with their cubs, and is fast while carrying the kitchen sink, every time I have to push it I grumble just a little. Also the total harmony I feel flying a well balanced cub, even at 85 mph, is about the best thing in life! (The Aeronca Champ flew like that also). I don't get that with most of the bigger aircraft.

    If you are going to take more than one trip a year over 250 miles with your other half, you might want speed, (anything over 90 mph is speed).

    If you are going to fly with passengers more than 50% of the time, you need horse power to work tight spots.

    Is this going to be your travel aircraft? A bunch of the guys here have two planes- one for slow, one to travel. Buying the fast plane and using it for fun on gravel bars is expensive and not as much fun as a light bird designed for such- but we make sacrifices.

    If you want super short landings, and fast cruise, one thing to consider is finding the 2 seat Bearhawk... unreal what that does. The Husky flies fast and lands short, new wing ones are really good. Scouts... ok it is a pretty big list actually.

    Back to your question- You will see good and some bad posted in the past about both companies you mention. For the amount of $$$ you are looking to spend, go fly each and see how you fit in them. Do more than a hop around the airport. Sit in it for 30 minutes on the ground, or longer.

    Do a serious amount of thought as to what you will be doing 80% of the time... if it is just to fly around the farm and look at the cows, get the smaller plane with small engine that feels great- in fact, just go grab one of Glenn's birds as I think they are well balanced!
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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    Why the comment about the Shock? What didn't you like?

    The new Rans S20 looks like a contender in your category.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    Bob, the super legend that he asked about is more like a lighter CC Top Cub? And 80K cheaper then a Carbon Cub



    Glenn
    Glen, I am looking more at their Super Legend HP http://www.legend.aero/shop/item.asp...legend-hp/319/
    Sorry for the dumb questions, I'm an FNG!

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    Welcome to the dark side of aviation!

    Sounds like you have knowledge of aviation, but in good SC.org order, we must attempt to sell you on all of the myriad of options out there that might do you a better job, or what we prefer.

    Seriously, you say you want FUN. Ok, please quantify that. Bob there might think it is fun to do the pattern normal yet inverted, he likes the Decathlon; Glenn, he likes super complicated aircraft circa Orvill and Wilbur flew- one mag switch, throttle, stick and if he feels studly uses his feet on occasion; Capt'n John, he does it all, but changes from a J-3 to the RV, depending on his mission, but flew jets in his other life.

    So 'fun' is a bit different for each of us. My life got really complicated when we added the second dog and did not fit in the cub. I went 4 seat, and while it will go places other's wont with their cubs, and is fast while carrying the kitchen sink, every time I have to push it I grumble just a little. Also the total harmony I feel flying a well balanced cub, even at 85 mph, is about the best thing in life! (The Aeronca Champ flew like that also). I don't get that with most of the bigger aircraft.

    If you are going to take more than one trip a year over 250 miles with your other half, you might want speed, (anything over 90 mph is speed).

    If you are going to fly with passengers more than 50% of the time, you need horse power to work tight spots.

    Is this going to be your travel aircraft? A bunch of the guys here have two planes- one for slow, one to travel. Buying the fast plane and using it for fun on gravel bars is expensive and not as much fun as a light bird designed for such- but we make sacrifices.

    If you want super short landings, and fast cruise, one thing to consider is finding the 2 seat Bearhawk... unreal what that does. The Husky flies fast and lands short, new wing ones are really good. Scouts... ok it is a pretty big list actually.

    Back to your question- You will see good and some bad posted in the past about both companies you mention. For the amount of $$$ you are looking to spend, go fly each and see how you fit in them. Do more than a hop around the airport. Sit in it for 30 minutes on the ground, or longer.

    Do a serious amount of thought as to what you will be doing 80% of the time... if it is just to fly around the farm and look at the cows, get the smaller plane with small engine that feels great- in fact, just go grab one of Glenn's birds as I think they are well balanced!
    I have an RV-10, so distance and speed are taken care of. There is a pretty large contingent of off-field aviators around here that I would love to get to know and go do some field hopping with.
    Sorry for the dumb questions, I'm an FNG!

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Why the comment about the Shock? What didn't you like?

    The new Rans S20 looks like a contender in your category.
    The plane looks amazing....after-all, it is pretty much a copy of the Just SuperStol, however the owner's business practices leave much to be desired. Feel free to PM if you want details. I am not looking to make a spectacle of it.

    I don't think the Rans has the suspension set up I would be looking for, although it does look like a very capable machine.

    Chad
    Sorry for the dumb questions, I'm an FNG!

  13. #13
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Oops, thought I posted the Titan one, tiny print

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

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    Richgj3's Avatar
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    I bought the first 100 HP legend over 12 years ago. I have never flown the Super 180 Legend or the CC equivalent so no comment there.

    I will only only comment that you can’t find a nicer, more honest group than Legend. Obviously they are a smaller operation than CC, and I guess that has pluses and minuses. I have had no dealings with CC and have no reason to think they are not an upstanding group also.

    In 12 years there were two service bulletins on my Legend. One was on the O-200 from Continental and the other was on a prop I didn’t have.

    You owe owe it to yourself fly both airplanes. And call Legend and talk to Darin Hart. He is the owner, not a salesman and a real Cub guy.

    As Bob Turner says: My Opinion

    Rich
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    Rich,

    Thanks for that feedback. I guess my real question is, what makes CC so much "better"? Not that I am suggesting it is, but is DOES seem to be the go-to name people use when "money is no object." I guess I am wondering what makes them, at least seem, so much better. What can CC provide me that American Legend can't? And if I can quantify that, then I can make a decision if it is worth it.

    Thanks for all the feedback guys!

    Chad
    Sorry for the dumb questions, I'm an FNG!
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  16. #16
    Richgj3's Avatar
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    Chad

    l think that question is best asked to both vendors. On the surface one could surmise that CC overhead is bigger than Legend. How much that has to do with price is anybody’s guess. Having spent a career in telecommunications with a start up that ended up being worth $500 million, I can say most of our pricing arguments were around the topic of cost up vs market tolerance.

    Rich
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    WWhunter's Avatar
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    I have been looking at both also. Actually called and spoke to Darin yesterday and plan on stopping at the Legend factory and looking at their planes next Tuesday or Wednesday. While I have already been following them for several years, I have been following CC also. The Cc seems to be a little more 'refined' if that is the correct terminology or not is up to the buyer. The Legend, in my opinion is a little better value. This is only due to the end product is cheaper, no other reason for me. They perform fairly similar, with the CC having more speed on the top end. Also if one is worried about 'keeping up with the Jones's', the CC is your bird. Little sportier looking and a 'spiffier' interior if that is in your considerations. Having said all this, I think the the Legend is much closer to a stock Cub/Super Cub and as such is not a speed demon with the throttle hitting the wall. All JM2C.

    Meant to ad, I would also like to hear about your reasons for dislike of RANS. I stopped by their factory several weeks ago and had a great time speaking with Randy and some of his workers.

    I will also ad, I had a bad experience with Cub Crafters many years that has stuck with me so I was a little hesitant looking at them again.

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    Shock is not a Super StOL copy, about 2 or 3' more wing chord for one thing, more chord then SC. More a modified Rans S-7, the slats and gear have also been done before. Pilatus pc-6 gear for one.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by SinCityJets View Post
    First, hello everyone. I am new to the Cub world. All my time has been in a DA40 or RV-10, and I finally got tired of watching all the fun you guys were having in these damn YouTube videos, so if you can't beat them....join them.

    I am looking at buying a fun STOL plane to get comfortable and learn in, and then go do some fun, safe stuff.

    I have narrowed my search to the 180 HP AL Super Legend XP, or a CC SS. I was originally also looking at a Savage Shock, but would honestly not fly their plane if they gave it to me for free. I have also considered a Highlander and SuperStol, but a builder I am not.

    I am curious as to how these companies rate against each other, build quality, fit & finish, durability, etc. I tried the search function, but there isn't much dealing with these two companies lately.

    I AM NOT trying to start any kind of brand war, just looking for some honest feedback.

    Again, HELLO and thank you for the input and advice.

    Chad
    Chad, Iíve had the pleasure of owning a Rans S-7S since 04. Itís got VGs all over and Robertís Bush Gear with Acme Aero Shocks. Itís a great little airplane! Iíd buy another except this one is just fine. My next door neighbor has a 2015 Super Legend (180 HP Titan). I also have the pleasure of flying it also. It is one heck of a nice Cub and a performer bar none! Itíll take off shorter then the S-7S, climb steeper, and carry a heavier load. But thatís it. Both planes fly together just great.
    Buying and building a Legend was a good enough experience that he is now building the second (a 2018 model). This one has the Titan 171 HP for burning 91 auto gas, 3X3 Gear, bigger tail feathers, larger flaps, Garmin G3X with auto pilot. The Legend factory support was/is excellant. So is Rans.
    IMO, CC has a larger following with smart marketing. Those things can allow them to command a premium price perhaps, Iím not sure.
    Roddy
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    FWIW, I’d like to add the Carbon Cub and the Just SuperStol are also very appealing, reputable companies with many aircraft flying with very positive reviews. The Shock cub fellow was less then enthused to talk at SNF. (In fairness he was tired from a bunch of flying to get there I believe).
    Enjoy your hunt, it’s all good!
    Roddy

  21. #21
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    One of the big advantages of a Cub clone over the CC is the ease of looking at your engine. Not a biggie to some but important to others

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  22. #22
    JP's Avatar
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    Great people and products at all three companies. You can't go wrong once you determine which one fits your personal mission. They all make great airplanes that anyone would be proud to own and fly.
    JP Russell--The Cub Therapist
    1947 PA-11 Cub Special
    www.bloomerrussellbeaupain.com

  23. #23
    Scouter's Avatar
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    When I decided to go light sport 3 years ago, started to look and compare and test fly all that I could to make up my mind. Im a flyer, not a builder at this point of life. I visited several folks from Oregon to Maine.
    All of these planes were used ones for sale.

    Flew 3 different Legend cubs. Nice fliers, well built by the good guys in Sulpher Springs. Met with them a couple times, and visited at the major airshows. The Legend cubs are most like the legacy cubs in my opinion,
    in terms of parts, and trim, with the exception of the left door, which took a bit to get used to, but would be exceptional on floats. Things I didnt like, from my notes 3 years ago;

    Dont like heel brakes with size 13.5 boots on. They dont work well for me, although the planes take little braking
    Wanted flaps, the Legend cubs dont have them, not sure on the newer HP version, do they have flaps?
    the three I tried out were heavier by 50 lbs empty than similar equipped CubCrafters
    Didnt have extended baggage on the 100hp examples I flew
    Was not impressed by Legend Co during handling of the Continental cylinder dustup, I know an owner who got so fed up he bought new cyls from elsewhere when Legend said it was a Continental problem, and they handled it poorly, my opinion

    Tried out 2 different CubCrafters sport cubs both with continental 0200 XP upgrades, supposed to be around 116 hp with mods. Both planes had cylinder valve issues from the git go, and both had valves reworked by LY-Con
    things I liked
    Toe brakes
    50 lbs lighter
    Flaps
    Fit and finish second to none. Real attention to detail, and easy to see the clean sheet design to a lot of the systems
    I liked their approach to weight loss by analyzing every detail

    Went to Oregon to try out a S7 Courier. It was well built, and a great performer, but in the end I cant drink the KoolAid, yet. There are several here in Maine, and a couple of factory built units. They are very nice, but I didnt like a couple thing

    I had just replaced the brake cables on my old mountain bike, and the throttle cables on the Rans looked just like those cables I bought at Walmart. Now Im sure that Rans dont get their cables at Walmart so dont start throwing grenades. Just couldnt get that from my mind

    Rotax engine? Seems to be bulletproof in the guys that I know, but just not for me just yet. Worldwide acceptance, but not many folks around here that turn wrenches on them.
    Factory tube gear looked weak to me, and the rugged Roberts gear adds a lot of drag on speed? Just what I have been told dont have enough time in them to have a real strong desire
    Talked to CourierGuy who is their greatest cheerleader, and sure makes it look easy, and flies his Rans a lot. He has had the Koolaid , but if you can do it like him, it aint bragging

    On our farm when we buy stuff, parts availability, timing and support is critical for what we do, and I looked for that in an aircraft company. Cubcrafters second to none,

    End of the day I bought a 09 CubCrafters Sport cub, and flew it for close to 2 years and 160 or so hours. Great plane, lots of fun, pretty easy on the wallet fuel burn. Still had monkey motion on cyls, reworked one after 50 hours for low comp.
    CubCrafters in my opinion has been great to be associated with, parts folks are super. The whole cubcrafters staff have been great, Brad Damm,Randy Lervold, Mark Keneston all great guys who are genuine class act when i have talked to them
    Hope to one day meet Jim Richmond.

    Recently sold the sport cub and bought a slightly used Carbon Cub SS. Ive had it since November, and have put 60 hours on it, flew it from Maine to FL a couple weeks ago, you cant stop at a fuel pump without drawing a crowd. Had a guy with a Seminole want to trade with me on the ramp. The thing is awesome, and it hard to fly it well with such a stupid grin on your face. Im sure a Super Legend HP would have the same effect
    Two things I would change on Carbon Cub

    Heater is nearly non existent. -17 in Vermont on New Years day will confirm the weakness. I hear the newer birds have better heat. Mine is a 2010
    26 gal fuel tanks a tad small on long cross country, I would pay the weight penalty for the 44 gal tanks. I think. Most of the time I need to get out after 3 hours which the small fuel is fine.
    Sure having impure thoughts after looking at that FX 3 on national tour in November. Now that is an airplane. If I can get basic med behind me, well, will see someday

    As Bob says, my opinion

    Jim
    Last edited by Scouter; 02-14-2018 at 07:49 PM.
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  24. #24
    JP's Avatar
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    Ditto on that freaking heater. Says the back seat guy. Coldest day of my life. So far.
    JP Russell--The Cub Therapist
    1947 PA-11 Cub Special
    www.bloomerrussellbeaupain.com
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  25. #25
    Scouter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JP View Post
    Ditto on that freaking heater. Says the back seat guy. Coldest day of my life. So far.
    Good thing Pete fixed us up with that old Vermont Country Store with the pot belly woodburner.
    I didnt have that problem last week in FL

    Jim
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  26. #26
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Check and be very cognizant of useful load. Some of the Cubs, and their look alikes have almost no useful load. That is OK if you really think you are going to stay local. But I have seen lots of guys who thought they were going to stay local get caught up in the Cub group, and all of a sudden they want to go to Johnson Creek, New Holstein, Alaska, the WAD etc. If you can't put full fuel, 2 folks, and at LEAST 100 pounds of gear (preferably200) you will be very limited.

    Just something to consider

    Bill
    Very Blessed.
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  27. #27
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    And they all have some issues, none are perfect. Do some reading

    http://forum.cubcrafters.com/forum.php

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  28. #28
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Rusk View Post
    Check and be very cognizant of useful load. Some of the Cubs, and their look alikes have almost no useful load. That is OK if you really think you are going to stay local. But I have seen lots of guys who thought they were going to stay local get caught up in the Cub group, and all of a sudden they want to go to Johnson Creek, New Holstein, Alaska, the WAD etc. If you can't put full fuel, 2 folks, and at LEAST 100 pounds of gear (preferably200) you will be very limited.

    Just something to consider

    Bill
    Or, in good Alaska Style, load all you can in your plane, then take the excess to your buddy's house or plane and leave it with a note: I need this but can't fit it in. See you at Johnson Creek!

    Yea, why we encourage guys with 180, 185 and Maules to join- pack mule.

    Now I am one
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by WWhunter View Post

    Meant to ad, I would also like to hear about your reasons for dislike of RANS. I stopped by their factory several weeks ago and had a great time speaking with Randy and some of his workers.
    I apologize if my previous comment was taken that I disliked Rans. Not at all. Just the opposite, I am thinking of getting their S-19LS to teach my kids in. If there was a Rans I may be interested in, it would be the 21 they are still working on. They seem like a great company, and like Vans, have a huge following. You don't get that by making crap products!
    Sorry for the dumb questions, I'm an FNG!

  30. #30
    G44's Avatar
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    Also consider Scout and Husky, both great airplanes.

  31. #31
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I have flown and worked on both aircraft. The Legend is a Cub, built just like a Cub with interchangable parts. The Carbon Cub is a clean sheet of paper and only looks like a Cub. It has a bigger door, a sling back seat and toe brakes. Both models you have mentioned on your short list are amazing performers. I have a Legend AL11 project and most of the major parts are Piper and I can obtain those parts from multiple vendors. If you buy a used SS makes sure that all the service bulletins have been complied with. They can get expensive and will add to the cost. I would fly both airplanes and figure out if one happens to stand out to you.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
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  32. #32

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    First, thank you everyone for the replies. I asked the question looking for the magic bullet that allowed CC to command almost $100,000 more for a similarly equipped plane if using the X, or $30k more if using the SS. Basically an “every option” AL vs an every option CC SS or X.

    What i I took from this thread was they are both great planes, CC may have a better fit and finish on the interior, may be a little lighter on a similarly equipped bird, may take longer or be harder to get parts. May even be a little faster in a cruise due to their redesign, but I would have a hard time justifying a lot more money just for the ability to say I owned a CC.

    The AL Legend Cub HP I am looking comes with flaps, toe brakes, TK1 suspension, Garmin G3X, 29” tires, extra storage, amazing paint scheme, 180 hp, for 10’s of thousands less than a similarly built CC.

    I figured if if anyone could tell me why, you guys could. If I missed something or misunderstood something, please let me know. Again, I appreciate all the comments, feedback, and PM’s.

    Chad
    Sorry for the dumb questions, I'm an FNG!

  33. #33

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    If the question is simply which is more desireable? Look around. The market has spoken, and apparently price wasn’t a deterrent.
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  34. #34

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    I would echo stewartb's comment. I owned a Legend Cub for 4 years and enjoyed it. I have flown several models of the Carbon Cub and must say that there is no better Cub-like plane on the market today than the latest version of the Carbon Cub, followed closely by older versions of the same plane. The last one I flew, the EX-2, was the finest flying plane of its type that I have ever experienced, and the workmanship and engineering are in a league of their own. That said, there is a significant price difference that must be factored into any value calculation. I suggest you fly both planes and decide for yourself. I think the Carbon Cub is worth the extra money, but that is just my opinion.
    Dave Prizio
    TX Sport Cub N114DE

  35. #35
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WWhunter View Post
    ..I will also ad, I had a bad experience with Cub Crafters many years that has stuck with me so I was a little hesitant looking at them again.
    Ah, the power of the first impression. This is a lesson that everyone, esp sellers, and esp sellers in the (declining) aviation industry needs to learn.
    The needs-a-$5 part customer that you blow off today may be the customer that goes elsewhere to spend the big money next time.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
    Thanks super stol thanked for this post

  36. #36

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    You never get a second chance to make a first impression, something every industry should learn.
    Likes FdxLou, Richgj3, Gordon Misch liked this post

  37. #37
    WWhunter's Avatar
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    Sincityjet, if it's the demo model you're interested in, I can tell you about it later. I'm going to look at it in a few days.

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by WWhunter View Post
    Sincityjet, if it's the demo model you're interested in, I can tell you about it later. I'm going to look at it in a few days.
    haha, no, I wasn't looking at the demo, although it is a sweet looking bird! I was really just looking for a direct comparison.
    Sorry for the dumb questions, I'm an FNG!

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Prizio View Post
    I would echo stewartb's comment. I owned a Legend Cub for 4 years and enjoyed it. I have flown several models of the Carbon Cub and must say that there is no better Cub-like plane on the market today than the latest version of the Carbon Cub, followed closely by older versions of the same plane. The last one I flew, the EX-2, was the finest flying plane of its type that I have ever experienced, and the workmanship and engineering are in a league of their own. That said, there is a significant price difference that must be factored into any value calculation. I suggest you fly both planes and decide for yourself. I think the Carbon Cub is worth the extra money, but that is just my opinion.
    Have you flown the Super Legend with the O-340?
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
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  40. #40

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    I have not yet flown the Super Legend. I am sure it is quite a performer with all that added power. I am also sure that you could have a lot of fun with one if you were to buy one. If the Super Legend is what you want, I would not discourage you from getting one. There is, however, much more to flying that power. I encourage you to fly the both the Super Legend and the Carbon Cub and then decide.
    Dave Prizio
    TX Sport Cub N114DE
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