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Welding rod question

B

Beaverpilot

Registered User
Manitoba Canada
I ran out of 4130 rods, I have some ER70S2 rods laying around and I am trying to finish my seat base. Can I use them?? What about in a structural application? Any input would be a help.


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You shouldn’t be using 4130 rods on 4130 tubing. ER70S2 or ER70S6 are what is recommended for 4130. Using 4130 rods can result in increased brittleness in the heat affected zone.


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dgapilot said:
You shouldn’t be using 4130 rods on 4130 tubing. ER70S2 or ER70S6 are what is recommended for 4130. Using 4130 rods can result in increased brittleness in the heat affected zone.


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Click to expand...

It is the rod that AC spruce sells for 4130. So it may not actually be that. Sorry for the misunderstanding


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I was just recently interested in proper rod for 4130 tube- same answers as above from not only cub guys all over, but professional welders.

I don't know if the rod from AS is just stamped to be used for 4130, but it has that number on it. I find ordering from a welding supply house is a much better solution to purchase equipment.

FYI: Lots of great knowledge around here on welding!!!
 
aktango58 said:
I was just recently interested in proper rod for 4130 tube- same answers as above from not only cub guys all over, but professional welders.

I don't know if the rod from AS is just stamped to be used for 4130, but it has that number on it. I find ordering from a welding supply house is a much better solution to purchase equipment.

FYI: Lots of great knowledge around here on welding!!!
Click to expand...

ACS calls it a 32CMS I had some that my father purchased when I got my project so I was using that up. I was curious as to what the opinions were around here, I have several pounds of the ER70S2 in the shop and when I run out of those ill be finishing my 5th cub (presently working on my 1st)
 
Beaverpilot said:
ACS calls it a 32CMS I had some that my father purchased when I got my project so I was using that up. I was curious as to what the opinions were around here, I have several pounds of the ER70S2 in the shop and when I run out of those ill be finishing my 5th cub (presently working on my 1st)
Click to expand...

You will have it down by the time you are done!

I am using tungsten from Grandpa's tool box. He had not welded since the mid-70's, and my uncle passed tools and aircraft stuff to me after Grandpa died.

Wish I had been old enough for him to teach me.
 
Most any mild steel rod works on 4130. Spruce sells Oxweld 32CMS as well as ER70S2, ER70S6 and I think ER80. Your local welding store will likely have ER rods as they are applicable to both TIG and gas welding whereas the 32CSM, R45,and RG45 are only applicable to gas welding. This isn’t rocket science, any of these rods will provide a weld (when properly executed) with a higher tensile than the tube you are welding. Each rod will weld a little different with regards to spark and flow, but that’s where you find the one you like best for the process you are using. I switch back and forth between gas and TIG, and I already have 2 stainless alloys, 3 aluminum alloys and one mild steel each in 3 different diameters, that 18 different type of rods I keep on hand not counting brazing rods. You think I want to stock another rod just for gas welding when the ER70S2 I have works just as well?


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ER80S-2 is actually the closest match for tensile strength and required ductility for welding 4130. ER70S-2 is most commonly used and totally acceptable. Some weld procedures require 4130 filler, however, Using 4130 filler REQUIRES annealing post weld. NEVER use RG 45 or RG65 for tig welding, it doesn't have the correct deoxidizers. RG rods are for oxy-fuel welding only. Some people use stainless rod for 4130 but it's a bad idea. It causes carbide formations in the heat affected zone and will eventually fail.
 
Thanks everyone for all the info! So the seat base is 99% done. Still need to weld in the flap ratchet support. I was curious as to your methods to account for expansion while welding. I have done lots of research on welding and am an acceptable welder. I try to account for this when I welded up the base however it still shrank about 1/8”. I heated the opposite side and held tension on the legs and it came out to where I wanted it. So let’s hear it.


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I usually figure 1/16 shrink for each weld. Sounds like your 1/8 is about right, welds at each end, so 2 X 1/16=1/8


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N85HY is right on the ER80-S-D2. What's interesting, when I was learning I stopped at a sprint car chassis place is Sioux Falls and they were tigging 4130 with RG60. It must have worked.
 
180Marty said:
N85HY is right on the ER80-S-D2. What's interesting, when I was learning I stopped at a sprint car chassis place is Sioux Falls and they were tigging 4130 with RG60. It must have worked.
Click to expand...

Long time ago I made custom exhaust for a few friends hotrods. I used what we did when I worked in a repair shop. Coat Hanger, still one of my favorites around the shop.

Glenn
 
The ER70-2 or -3 are the best for hand welding with no post heat treating.
The ER80 rods, the weldment is to be preheated and held between 400-600F during the weld.
4130 rod is for a structure that will get post heat treat.
ER70-6 is a wire designed for Mig welding. If used with Tig welding it is prone to have excessive undercutting. It is not recommended to use -6.

If you are getting shrinkage in the welds then there is too much heat being input. The structure should remain stable with minimal distortion.
 
When the Tig was new, and I had never used one, my snowplow mount on my UTV showed some issues... multiple welds cracked and broken.

I decided that I would use the TIG instead of a stick welder, just as a learning tool. I ran out of rod before I was finished, and was really mad as I was almost done, but 7:00 at night. I called one of the old miners to see if he had any rod- then went and got it.

He gave me a few pounds of 7018 that had gotten wet. I took each rod and tapped it with a hammer to remove all the flux, then wire brushed it for a final cleaning. That snow plow mount has not shown one issue since!!!

Sometimes we get ourselves wrapped around an axle trying to get the 'right' stuff, when what we need is just stuff.;-)

Mind you, if the UTV plow mount broke, no idiots will be harmed in the repairing it a second time; I am a bit more particular for my plane... don't want an AD for cracks coming out on the Maule!:lol:
 
aktango58 said:
When the Tig was new, and I had never used one, my snowplow mount on my UTV showed some issues... multiple welds cracked and broken.

I decided that I would use the TIG instead of a stick welder, just as a learning tool. I ran out of rod before I was finished, and was really mad as I was almost done, but 7:00 at night. I called one of the old miners to see if he had any rod- then went and got it.

He gave me a few pounds of 7018 that had gotten wet. I took each rod and tapped it with a hammer to remove all the flux, then wire brushed it for a final cleaning. That snow plow mount has not shown one issue since!!!

Sometimes we get ourselves wrapped around an axle trying to get the 'right' stuff, when what we need is just stuff.;-)

Mind you, if the UTV plow mount broke, no idiots will be harmed in the repairing it a second time; I am a bit more particular for my plane... don't want an AD for cracks coming out on the Maule!:lol:
Click to expand...

No such things as wet rod, just stick it for a few seconds. You guys are picky

Glenn
 
180Marty said:
N85HY is right on the ER80-S-D2. What's interesting, when I was learning I stopped at a sprint car chassis place is Sioux Falls and they were tigging 4130 with RG60. It must have worked.
Click to expand...
It "works" but not well. Likely full of porosity.
 
I am a professional welder, welding and fabrication business owner, certified welder, certified welding inspector, taught welding and fabrication at a college for nine years, etc.... I know more about welding than aviation I guess. Happy to answer questions about welding stuff.
 
N85HY said:
I am a professional welder, welding and fabrication business owner, certified welder, certified welding inspector, taught welding and fabrication at a college for nine years, etc.... I know more about welding than aviation I guess. Happy to answer questions about welding stuff.
Click to expand...
Thanks. And for what it's worth, your comments/recommendations are consistent with those of a welding engineer/metallurgist friend near here.
 
Gordon Misch said:
Thanks. And for what it's worth, your comments/recommendations are consistent with those of a welding engineer/metallurgist friend near here.
Click to expand...
Thanks, with my experience I probably should have went for a welding engineer degree, but... I didn't want to. I like getting dirty and putting my body through hell too much to go back to school��
 
Interesting thread! I am about to have the atlee dodge aft float attach brackets welded on two Cubs. The intall instuctions call for MIL-E-6843 filler rod (or equvalent). I am trying to find the correct filler rod, But I am having a hade time to find it out.. the lower longerons on a stock cub is 1025 right? So I guess there is a difference on what rod to use compared to welding 4130. Any tips regarding this issue would be appreciated. I have ER 70 S-6. Is this acceptable? Thanks.
 
Cubswede said:
I have ER 70 S-6. Is this acceptable? Thanks.
Click to expand...

Personally you are far better off with ER70 S2 rod. The S6 rod is designed to flow easily and is optimized for MIG welding. The issue it has when TIG welding is the way it puddles is prone to undercut the edges of the weld. In your case when welding a thick material to the thin, the thin being the longeron is prone to undercut. Just what you do not want. The thicker bracket will not be harmed but the thin tube is prone to being compromised. Does not matter how good a torch man one is. the material in the rod does the damage.
FWIW, S2 is the best for the old 1025 and 4130 use the same rod if not being post heat treated, even if being heat treated the S2 is the best universal rod for both with S3 rod being better if the material is super clean.
 
Are you TIG welding or gas welding? I didn't see anything in the thread that specified. (Maybe I missed it.)
 
MIL-E-6843 was last updated in 1960. Most of the mil specs have long since been superseded with some Industry Standard. The new standards are either AWS standards, ASTM standards, or ANSI standards. The MIL-S-6843 Standard is for MIG welding, not generally used on aircraft. I suspect when installing float fittings you will either TIG or use Oxy/Acetylene. The ER70S2 will work well for either application, or for oxy/acetylene, you can use RG45 rod.


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Sorry, should have mentioned we will be using Tig method. Is this "undercut" problem so big that you advise NOT to use it? The problem I am facing is that the certified welder (only a handful in the whole kingdom of Sweden) is coming tomorrow to weld some parts on the cub that are 4130.(some tubes under the seat has cracks in them) And aparently he is having some rod acceptable for 4130 (not ER70S2). And then I thought it will be a great opportunity to weld the float attach brackets on while he's around.. He lives some 600 km from where I live, so guess how stupid I feel not to have checked this up earlier. Strange enough no one here seem to be familiar with the ER70S2. S-6 i can buy at the local metal supplier. I doubt i will be able to get -S2 by tomorrow.. ��
 
I’ve never used S6 rod, so I can’t really say. Have you checked with your local welding store? Anyone that sells welding supplies should be able to get it, however the ER70 rods are an America’s Welding Society spec. You may have a different set of specs there. In any case, if you are hiring a guy to weld, he should know what he’s doing. I’d suggest having some similar size pieces of tubing and fittings available for him to practice on first. If the welds look good go for the real thing. If they look like crap and have undercut, send him packing and find someone else.


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S6 rod is not common around here but S6 wire for mig is. S6 just has a little more silicon in it for deoxidizing and help with fluidity. I have clipped off some S6 wire for tig welding in a pinch. Undercut on steel tig welds usually comes from not removing mill scale before welding or not adequate cover gas. The big gas diffusers on a wp17 torch flow and cover terrible. Use a gas lense. s6 works just as good as S2.
 
N85HY said:
S6 rod is not common around here but S6 wire for mig is. S6 just has a little more silicon in it for deoxidizing and help with fluidity. I have clipped off some S6 wire for tig welding in a pinch. Undercut on steel tig welds usually comes from not removing mill scale before welding or not adequate cover gas. The big gas diffusers on a wp17 torch flow and cover terrible. Use a gas lense. s6 works just as good as S2.
Click to expand...

+1 on using a gas lens!


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