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Thread: Grove 10" wheels/8" brakes for 35 ABW and 31 Desser

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    Grove 10" wheels/8" brakes for 35 ABW and 31 Desser

    I wanted option to run both tires and get a bigger brake also. ABW does not offer anything bigger than the 6" brakes for the 35" tires. Current Grove model is too wide for 35 ABW tire. I can get billet wheels and brakes to fit both tires but I need a couple more guys to help offset the cost.

    These wheels and brakes are about 15lbs each side. $3000 maximum two wheels/brakes/rotors. 1.25 and 1.5". Grove has a good reputation, check out their webpage for similar wheels. http://www.groveaircraft.com/10inch.html

    PM me if interested. Gordy

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    I bought 10" x 10" Alaskan Bushwheel (ABI) Wheel Assembly 30-52N ABI Brake Assembly, form http://www.airframesalaska.com/. As far as the brake disk is concerned it is Cleveland and I think 10". Give them a call, good to do business with.

    The tires them self came from https://www.desser.com/Aircraft-Tire...LASS-AA4AL.asp


    David Moore

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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cub-size12 View Post
    I wanted option to run both tires and get a bigger brake also. ABW does not offer anything bigger than the 6" brakes for the 35" tires. Current Grove model is too wide for 35 ABW tire. I can get billet wheels and brakes to fit both tires but I need a couple more guys to help offset the cost.

    These wheels and brakes are about 15lbs each side. $3000 maximum two wheels/brakes/rotors. 1.25 and 1.5". Grove has a good reputation, check out their webpage for similar wheels. http://www.groveaircraft.com/10inch.html

    PM me if interested. Gordy
    seems like allot of work to get to your goal... moving stuff is not really gonna gain anything??....

    use ABW wheel, if you want bigger brake disk(your goal?), just part off the 6" 6 bolt disk and weld on new bigger disk.... and then make new torque plate to match..... use kidney washers....

    caliper will probably work as is, or may need slight grinding at outer corners...

    you could also get to same goal boosting brake pressure/ and or increasing volume of the pucks (think making pucks square-ish in existing caliper, if you add volume you will increase pedal movement to get stopped)??....

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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    The whole advantage in 35" Bushwheels is the soft sidewall that absorbs the rough stuff. The sidewall can be soft because the wheel is 10" and the brake disc is 6". That way the caliper doesn't rub the tire. I think a 35" Bushwheel on a 10" brake will rub. Never had an issue with enough brake on 35s and 6" discs.
    Steve Pierce

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    Grove 10" wheels/8" brakes for 35 ABW and 31 Desser

    My ABW 10" wheels have 7-1/2" dia rotors. It looks like there's room to accommmodate a bigger rotor but it would be a PITA if you wanted to swap out tires and wheels that had std size rotors. How much added braking would larger rotors provide? It's an interesting idea if you run one set of tires all the time.

    Installing brake pads on ABW 10x10 wheels with big Air Hawks is a bitch. I like the clearance my rotors have!
    Last edited by stewartb; 01-28-2018 at 10:06 PM.
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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Gordy,
    What are you currently using for wheels and brakes? Consider using two sets of double puck brake assemblies on each wheel. Set them opposite each other around the 6" disk. Connect them in series with each other. This will double your braking force, should be enough and less spendy.

    Modify the two mounting plates by cutting and welding the two together. I've done this in a different application than yours on 5:00-5 wheels on EDO amphibs on a PA-18. The brake boosters would not hold the small wheels for steering the floats. With the double assemblies the tires would skid on pavement.
    N1PA
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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Gordy,
    What are you currently using for wheels and brakes? Consider using two sets of double puck brake assemblies on each wheel. Set them opposite each other around the 6" disk. Connect them in series with each other. This will double your braking force, should be enough and less spendy.

    Modify the two mounting plates by cutting and welding the two together. I've done this in a different application than yours on 5:00-5 wheels on EDO amphibs on a PA-18. The brake boosters would not hold the small wheels for steering the floats. With the double assemblies the tires would skid on pavement.
    it would require double the brake pedal movement then also?....

  8. #8
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    it would require double the brake pedal movement then also?....
    Yes Mike it would. There should still be adequate master cylinder travel available. In my 5:00-5 example the brakes were single puck.
    N1PA
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    Hey fellas its real simple. This is a less expensive option for 10" wheels with bigger brakes. Grove current 10" wheels are too wide for 35" ABW tire. he said he could make me some wheels to fit them. No work just bolt on. No welding. I'm going to run the 35 ABW tires, some may opt for the less expensive 31" Desser. This Wheel will handle both tires, is lighter than ABW 10" wheel, has bigger brakes and is made in America. Its a plug and play option for all Xcubs (and maybe certified cubs)

    Just thought I'd throw it out there.
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  10. #10

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    great point. thats why those of us up here running 31's on 6" wheels/rotors grind smooth the brake pad edges so they don't cut into the sidewall when tire flexes. this rotor will be inside the diameter of the rim. If tire flexes that much in that area we got other problems

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    My ABW 10" wheels have 7-1/2" dia rotors. It looks like there's room to accommmodate a bigger rotor but it would be a PITA if you wanted to swap out tires and wheels that had std size rotors. How much added braking would larger rotors provide? It's an interesting idea if you run one set of tires all the time.

    Installing brake pads on ABW 10x10 wheels with big Air Hawks is a bitch. I like the clearance my rotors have!

    My failure radar comes out when i think about doubling the amount of caliper on that disc. All the stopping power must transfer into the wheel through the attaching hardware- three bolts in this picture.

    Were it me going to be trying to put that much brake on that arm I would want some very strong and large backing pieces, maybe a one piece steel ring, to put between the bolt head and the disc to transfer the load all the way around the inner disc attach point.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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    That's why many of us have kidney washers on 3-bolt wheels. They seem to work well with big tires on Skywagons. Coincidentally the brakes stop mine at 3200# just fine, if that means anything.

    Hmm, Anyone running 10x6-1/2 wheels with kidney washers?
    Last edited by stewartb; 01-29-2018 at 04:00 PM.
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    aktango58's Avatar
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    The kidney washers are great, I had one plane with plates that covered the entire area between the bolts, was great.

    I know of one plane that did not have more than standard washers under the 3 bolt heads and bent the tail sideways as he slide off into the gully on the gravel bar. Having something to spread the load is a good idea.

    I suspect that with double pucks kidney washers will be just fine, but if one were to add a second set of calipers I would be thinking the next failure point would be the disc.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    George, You guys are awfully tough on airplanes up there.

    If you have two opposite sets of pucks you will not need to stand so hard on the pedals because the clamping action will be doubled. Therefore for a given amount of braking force the loads on the disk will be the same. You may even find that the loads on the disk may be more evenly distributed thus less likely to be damaged.

    It does make sense to have a larger than normal washer or pad under the bolt head to distribute the loads.
    N1PA
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    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    George, You guys are awfully tough on airplanes up there.

    If you have two opposite sets of pucks you will not need to stand so hard on the pedals because the clamping action will be doubled. Therefore for a given amount of braking force the loads on the disk will be the same. You may even find that the loads on the disk may be more evenly distributed thus less likely to be damaged.

    It does make sense to have a larger than normal washer or pad under the bolt head to distribute the loads.
    Torque from a spinning tire is carried to the disc. The larger the tire the more torque. The force on the disc will be the same to stop rotation with one or two sets of calipers- though with two the loading of the torque will be balanced; but the same amount of energy will be required to stop that turning wheel/tire using one, two or four calipers on that disc.

    If your tire won't skid, that can have lots of force onto three small holes in a disc.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    The kidney washers are great, I had one plane with plates that covered the entire area between the bolts, was great.
    we would end up drilling new holes in disks as they wore out(oblonged) on the 185's even with the kidney washers...

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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I run my 31"s where I can barely push it out of the hanger, big gopher cheeks. No rubbing the caliper.
    Steve Pierce

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    seems like allot of work to get to your goal... moving stuff is not really gonna gain anything??....
    what work? moving what?

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    Different torque plates, for sure.

    What does Grove say the braking improvement would be? If I can stop a 3200# Cessna effectively on big tires with standard brakes... what gain is there to put bigger rotors on a 2000# plane? Better power? Better control? With high pressure masters I never thought my Cub brakes were lacking but I'd be curious to hear if there's something better.
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    This happend to me with cleavlands and 31"s
    there's a weak point in the system, adding more braking power may not be the answer.

    image.jpeg

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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
    This happend to me with cleavlands and 31"s
    there's a weak point in the system, adding more braking power may not be the answer.

    image.jpeg
    This is a clear indication that the wrong brake assembly was used for the application. There is insufficient thickness of the material to contain the bearing loads of the three bolts. Either use an assembly with more bolts or a thicker materiel on the cup. This part could have been modified by adding a ring under the bolt heads and tack edge welding it to the cup.
    N1PA
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    I thought I was in the experimental forum, maybe admin could move me back. Thought I'd give it a try on my build and see how they work. Clearly I was mistaken, way too much work and less expensive and more options and lighter and Perhaps better braking.

    I don't have any data because it hasn't been done yet. Grove is building a very similar set exclusively for the Desser tire. This wheel tire combo will accept both the 31 Desser and the 35 ABW. Common sense would support better braking due to the bigger brakes. common sense would also support addressing possible increased stress on landing gear/wheel/brakes. We are not talking about a radical departure from common practice, just a bit bigger rotor and brake for the big 35's most are wanting. We just wanted to see if anybody else may want to give it a try.

    If anyone else is looking for options to the ABW setup PM me for details

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    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Cant remember what on but Ive seen twin double-puck brakes kn an airplane before-- big twin or ??
    Be interesting to see if it used a 6-bolt wheel or what.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

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    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
    This happend to me with cleavlands and 31"s
    there's a weak point in the system, adding more braking power may not be the answer.

    image.jpeg
    Thank you! Exactly the issue I was trying to describe.

    Yes, plenty of solutions available, but for sure something to think about and keep an eye on if you are using big tires on solid ground with lots of brakes.

    Grass I usually slide, but if you skid then hit solid and it jars the tire- the disc take a beating.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
    This happend to me with cleavlands and 31"s
    there's a weak point in the system, adding more braking power may not be the answer.

    image.jpeg
    Using Cleveland wheel spacers?
    Steve Pierce

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Using Cleveland wheel spacers?
    no,

  28. #28
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
    no,
    So what wheel/brake part number is this? Ripped this out and didn't flip?
    Steve Pierce

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    Steve,
    it was a Parker rotor, ill check on p/n.
    my guess is bolts weren’t properly torqued, holes wallowed out a bit over time.
    as George surmised, heavy braking/skidding on gravel, one wheel got traction, maybe on the surface of a buried boulder.
    re directional control; I think one instinctively gets off the other brake, drop the tail and rolled it out. In this case I had plenty of room.

    Oh, and this occurred on a Maule, probably the underlying cause
    Flying at about 1800 lbs total.

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    Cub-size12
    Check PM. I have a full set in my hanger. Working on field approval for cubs and 180/185. Exp should be bolt on with no problem.
    DENNY

  31. #31
    Mauleguy's Avatar
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    That brake disc is not the first one I have seen that happen to but it was with 35" ABW instead of 31". It is not that common for sure but with double calipers that would be my fear if they were not beefed up in the bolt on area. I think the whole disc in the attach area really would need to be machined from thicker material but a doubler on the back for sure.
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    Barnstormer's Avatar
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    Interesting discussion, OP thanks for starting it. Always planned on doubling up the calipers on my 185, but sold it before I did.

    I will be installing the Beringer 10" wheel and 10" brake system on the SQ2 as soon as it becomes available. Looks like they are mounting the caliper up top so that should eliminate any tire rub.

    I'll also be installing their master cylinders and parking brake (which I don't currently have).

    http://www.beringer-aero.com/en/file...-supercub-.pdf

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    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    It is not that common for sure but with double calipers that would be my fear if they were not beefed up in the bolt on area. I think the whole disc in the attach area really would need to be machined from thicker material but a doubler on the back for sure.
    I think there is a tension component on the disk mounting bolts, with a consequent peeling effect on the disk's mounting surface. In the picture that seems apparent. That would be due to the axial offset between disk and mounting surface.

    Further, I think that if two calipers were mounted opposite each other, the tensile force imposed on the bolts by the two calipers would cancel because the two calipers would be applying forces in opposite directions. So double, diametrically opposite calipers might actually reduce that tearing tendency and allow the bolts to operate nearly entirely in shear, mitigating that weakness.
    Gordon

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    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Wayne Mackey told me about a disc he peeled off like the photo. It was 35's on ABW's 10" wheeel for tue 35's.

    He didnt have the bog calipers so he put on the thin SuperCub 1-1/4" style ones, with that result.

    For what its worth, my 180 with 31's on Gar Aeros stops just fine on rough and smooth surfaces with the power available at gross weight. Cessna master cylinders power them right up.

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    I wonder how the rotor flange on my Cessna's 3-bolt wheels compare to my 10" Airframes wheels rotor flange? I happen to have both in the garage. I guess I'll find out.

    For those unfamiliar with kidney washers on 3-bolt cleveland brake rotors, here's a pic.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by stewartb; 02-03-2018 at 09:01 PM.
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  36. #36

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    Dave Calkins, you referred to light calipers. Did you mean rotors? As in lighter duty 3-bolt rotors? The only Cleveland Cub wheels I've had used 6 bolts. Are there 3 bolt Cub wheels, too?

  37. #37
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Stewart, are those "kidney washers" cleveland / aftermarket parts, or hand-crafted?
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

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    Not hand crafted by me. Stock parts from Reeve Air Motive in Anchorage. I don't know who
    makes them.

  39. #39
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Dave Calkins, you referred to light calipers. Did you mean rotors? As in lighter duty 3-bolt rotors? The only Cleveland Cub wheels I've had used 6 bolts. Are there 3 bolt Cub wheels, too?
    Wayne said he put the light discs on since he had the light calipers. Its all he had at the time the 35's went on his plane, so he made it work. Big mistake. I did not see this, only heard about it.

    A point I wanted to make, and should not be lost......

    ..............the brakes on the Cessnas work just fine with bigass tires and at gross weight. Not sure you need larger discs.

    pretty sure you need adequate master cylinders! will probably put Cessna masters on my next Cub build

  40. #40

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    I'm not sure I do either, I'm not an engineer. but they are lighter and cheaper than the alternative for the 35 tires. And they are bigger which suggests more stopping ability.

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