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Thread: Have been eyeballing Maules for float work.

  1. #81

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    That tank in a Cessna is called an accumulator tank. It's required with the Continental fuel injection, which has a fuel return line to manage line pressure. I don't believe fuel supply is it's primary purpose. Fuel collection from the return line is.
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  2. #82
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    Thanks guys, I was positive that there were not two headers, and now that the word 'Accumulator' comes out it sparked my memory.

    One note in the system about that 1 way valve to feed fuel from the electric pump to the engine: If your 1 way valve goes bad, and there is almost no way to test without disconnecting it, and you lose your fuel pump and need fuel from the electric pump you will only get a couple of minutes of run time before starving the engine.

    This happened to our Chief Pilot- took a while for the mechanics to figure out what was going on.

    Shucks! Maules back to Cessnas... How about that Grumman Goose?
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  3. #83
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    One note in the system about that 1 way valve to feed fuel from the electric pump to the engine: If your 1 way valve goes bad, and there is almost no way to test without disconnecting it, and you lose your fuel pump and need fuel from the electric pump you will only get a couple of minutes of run time before starving the engine.
    What type of airplane George? The electric pump in a 185 is in series between the accumulator tank and the engine driven pump.
    N1PA

  4. #84
    aktango58's Avatar
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    It was the 185. I should ask the mechanic again about it, but the 1 way valve that allows excess fuel to return back failed and that caused the fuel to quit flowing. After the engine would die fuel would gravity feed and the engine would start again and run after a bit... then die again.

    Not a great feeling when you are over ocean capes I can tell you that!
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  5. #85
    cubflier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    It was the 185. I should ask the mechanic again about it, but the 1 way valve that allows excess fuel to return back failed and that caused the fuel to quit flowing. After the engine would die fuel would gravity feed and the engine would start again and run after a bit... then die again.

    Not a great feeling when you are over ocean capes I can tell you that!
    You won't have that problem in a Maule. That's not to say it doesn't have other lesser issues such as it's venting etc. Bottom line is it pays to know your fuel system.

    Here is a link to a fuel system 185 accident. It not related to what's said above but gives the schematic routing of the 185 fuel system as it pertains to this discussion. A confusing part for me is the contention that the Cessna 185 will takeoff and run for 45 seconds in a climb with the fuel shutoff closed because of available fuel in the header/accumulator tank. I must be reading that wrong or don't understand the 185 schematic.

    The Maule will not run very long at all if you shutoff the fuel because the only fuel between that valve and the engine is the gascolator. I think there is safety in that sort of design. I have not experimented with how long it will run with the fuel shut off because one of the weak aspects of Maule that has not been mentioned is the Muffler system and it's propensity to crap a baffle at the hint of a back fire. Atlee's version of the Maule muffler rectified this to an extent and my baffle life span went from 80 hours to around 500 hours.

    Jerry
    If it looks smooth...it might be

    If it looks rough...it is!!
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  6. #86
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    "It was the 185."

    Found it! It's between the fire wall and the top of the accumulator tank in the return line from the fuel control. Mine was removed and routed up high to a T into the feed line from the front of the right tank when the turbo system was installed 30+ years ago. At the time I was told that there was sometimes trouble in that return line. I just did not know what it was.

    Thanks, I learned something today.
    N1PA

  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubflier View Post
    You won't have that problem in a Maule. That's not to say it doesn't have other lesser issues such as it's venting etc. Bottom line is it pays to know your fuel system.

    Here is a link to a fuel system 185 accident. It not related to what's said above but gives the schematic routing of the 185 fuel system as it pertains to this discussion. A confusing part for me is the contention that the Cessna 185 will takeoff and run for 45 seconds in a climb with the fuel shutoff closed because of available fuel in the header/accumulator tank. I must be reading that wrong or don't understand the 185 schematic.

    The Maule will not run very long at all if you shutoff the fuel because the only fuel between that valve and the engine is the gascolator. I think there is safety in that sort of design. I have not experimented with how long it will run with the fuel shut off because one of the weak aspects of Maule that has not been mentioned is the Muffler system and it's propensity to crap a baffle at the hint of a back fire. Atlee's version of the Maule muffler rectified this to an extent and my baffle life span went from 80 hours to around 500 hours.

    Jerry
    I was the pilot. It not have been 45 seconds, but it was over a mile of flight. Reason was an incorrect fuel tank selector valve was installed after an accident. The four-position valve was out of a 182 and the stem was not "keyed". 185 valves have three positions and the stem has three flat sides and a fourth 'half moon'. During a hundred hour inspection the 185 selector handle was removed and replaced 90* out of position. When 'Both' was selected, only one tank fed the engine. The first flight after the inspection (to a remote airstrip) depleted that tank. After landing the aircraft came to a stop sitting one wing low. The selector was moved to another position to prevent cross feed. The valve was then actually in 'both', allowing the depleted tank to empty into the opposite wing tank. At startup, the handle was moved to 'Both' which actually selected the now empty tank and isolated the tank with fuel. There was enough fuel remaining in the line and header tank to get a mile down the valley before engine shutoff. The rest is a long story with a safe ending.
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  8. #88

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    Have been eyeballing Maules for float work.

    According to the Cessna Service Manual on my desktop the fuel selector valve was optional. Don't confuse that with the fuel shutoff that's downstream of the accumulator. The selector is upstream.




    Last edited by stewartb; 02-01-2018 at 04:30 PM.

  9. #89
    mvivion's Avatar
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    I have flown a 185 with no fuel selector, a 1967 model, that was ordered by the owner without the selector to “keep it light”. Nice airplane, and a real rocket ship indeed. Never missed the selector, in any case.

    MTV

  10. #90
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    I'm with MTV, besides the gas stuff isn't in the tanks long enough to be a problem,lol.

  11. #91
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    From the little I know and have seen, the designs improved as they went along.
    Although several folks have said that the best Maules are those which have been wrecked and rebuilt.
    There is also the ongoing problem of Cessna comparisons with C-185s or C-180s.
    The most Maules empty weights are more in line with a C-172, 175 or a C170.

    ALL MAULE Accidents in last 40 years. World-wide.( at least in the NTSB system)
    627 total accidents and incidents
    71 fatal accidents in last 40 years.


    MAULE Accidents By Type since Jan 1978 World Wide:
    M4= 9 fatal out of 81 total accidents and incidents.......11.2% fatal.
    M5= 31 fatal out of 218 total............ 14.25 % fatal
    M6= 7 fatal out of 38 total ........ 18.5% fatal
    M7= 5 fatal out of 77 total accidents and incidents..... 6.5% fatal
    MX7= 2 fatal out of 59 total accidents and incidents ..... 3.5% fatal
    MXT7 = 0 fatal out of 6 accidents and incidents...... 0% fatal


    Cessna 180 during same period:
    1261 total with 107 fatal 8.5 % fatal

    Cessna 185 during same period
    1050 total with 114 fatal 10.9% fatal


    MAULE M6 summaries:
    Non Fatal:
    Ran off runway during landing roll-out.
    Lost control on T/O due to improper flap rigging
    Under-shot runway, hit ground.
    Hit trees on go-around.
    Cross wind landing, nose over.
    20-30 knot wind, lost control on landing.
    Ground loop, nose over.
    Hit fence post on slush covered runway.
    Over-loaded landing gear failure.
    Cross-wind, tail wind wing drag, nose over.
    Hit powerlines after early rotation on T/O
    Cross-wind, nose over on landing
    Hit fence, destroyed plane on take-off.
    Flipped plane after prop strike on sod strip
    Tailwind landing, lost control hit fence.
    Excessive crosswind, looped and nose over on landing.
    High wind landing, cartwheeled plane.
    Ground looped, drag wing on landing first flight.
    Stall mush into ground in foggy conditions.
    Ground loop and gear collapse with 40 hr pilot and 3 passengers.
    Landing bounce, followed by steep climb and stall into ground.
    Long landing, hit brakes went into ditch.
    Water in fuel, failure to restart , botched forced landing.
    Low Maule time pilot hit tree branch on float take-off.
    Occupants hit heads during evasion maneuvering
    Water take-off with 8 to 15 knot tail-wind, followed by stall.
    Landing bounce, veered off runway into parked planes.
    10 knot x-wind, ground loop gear collapse.
    Ran off runway, nose over, during go around.
    6 knot x-wind, veered off runway into soft ground, nose over.






    FATAL M6 Accidents:
    1. Flew into radio tower in bad weather.
    2. VMC into IFR, hit mountain in box canyon.
    3. Banner Tow, snagged powerlines.
    4. Pitch up and stall during aborted banner snag.
    5. Hit ATV on beach during landing. Killed person on ATV
    6. Stall spin into ground, mountain terrain. No Witnesses,
    7. Stall after take-off with excessive nose up pitch and high density alt.


    MAULE M7 fatals
    08/25/17 ; M7-260C airplane, Kazakhstan registration UP-ML003, impacted terrain during a forced landing near Zhideli, Kazakhstan. The pilot was fatally injured

    12/07/08 A Brazilian M-7-235 floatplane with 5 on board impacted trees after take-off.

    07/07/05: Near Seward AK, M7-235 on floats stalled too high on glassy water landing, smashing float gear and sinking the plane. One passenger drowned. 1,740 hour Comm pilot with 370hr is M7-235.

    08/23/96: M7, Near Barrow AK, 11,800 hr comm pilot last seen low flying over river in winds exceeding 60 mph. According to one witness but calm air according to another. Wreckage later discovered on river bar, evidence of wing skin overload and separation.

    05/02/94 M7-235 South Dakota. 1,300 hr VFR pilot flew into increasing fog and mist on long cross country. Impacted terrain.

  12. #92

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    Lots of differences in 185 fuel systems, especially the early models- some had the fuel shutoff push-pull on the control panel near the throttle. In my incident, the shutoff valve was open, the selector valve was the problem.

  13. #93
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    Alex, Have you considered a 172XP which has a higher gross than your old 172N? I had one on EDO 2440s for a while, it could carry a load with good performance. My wife used it for teaching seaplane ratings.
    They might have a wee bit higher gross weight , but they weigh more empty. I could regularly beat XPs off the lake with my Power Flowed N model, with similar loads and floats.

  14. #94
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Good info Alex.

    Lots of issues with directional control on the ground. I wonder how much that is guys jumping from the 172 into a maule and not getting good instruction, they are a pussy cat until you let it get out a bit then become a roaring mad tiger. on the ground.

    When I bought the Maule my friend told me to not make an opinion until I had 50 hours in it. He told me it would take that long to shed my 180/185 view and reactions and learn how to fly it.

    140 hours or so in it and I still am learning. It does not fly like a Cessna, nor a cub. If you jab power with tires touching you better be on the right brake or have lots of room left. For landing at all short you need to come in very controlled and burst power on the flare, otherwise you need lots of room. If you dip the nose on final, your speed gain is 10mph right now.

    I would love to have floats on her part of the year, they are a great plane on floats.

    Mine is quite heavy in my opinion. Mostly factory with IFR panel, 31" bushwheels and Bordello red Maule plush interior, float kit and still plywood with carpet flooring.. 1570 or there-abouts. Gross is 2,500.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  15. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Clark View Post
    They might have a wee bit higher gross weight , but they weigh more empty. I could regularly beat XPs off the lake with my Power Flowed N model, with similar loads and floats.
    Something must have been wrong with them. 210hp and an 80" constant speed turns a 172 into a fun airplane. Great float planes on PK B2300s. I liked mine right up unti I had to by an IO360KB from the factory. That hurt.

  16. #96
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    It's a Maule thread but Alex have you looked at C-175's with a bigger engine? Stoots Aviation in Fairbanks has STC's and had a few around on floats. One was for sale last Fall. They perform.

    Gary

  17. #97
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    As clumsy as I can be walking around on floats with a moose quarter or rack I sure am happy to open the rear door and fall into the plane with what ever load that I'm carrying. Hauled two full hundred lb propane bottles by myself to my cabin this summer. Just dragged them on the float, stood them up and tipped them in. The rear doors are a feature in the plus column. I have Aqua 2400 on mine and feel it's under floated at the heavier loads but it still takes me to plenty of good places.

    email-800-120-5080.jpg

    Jerry
    If it looks smooth...it might be

    If it looks rough...it is!!

  18. #98

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    I have always wanted to try a maule. Almost had one but the wife was there- sitting in the 7ECA with a grumpy face.


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  19. #99
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubflier View Post
    As clumsy as I can be walking around on floats with a moose quarter or rack I sure am happy to open the rear door and fall into the plane with what ever load that I'm carrying. Hauled two full hundred lb propane bottles by myself to my cabin this summer. Just dragged them on the float, stood them up and tipped them in. The rear doors are a feature in the plus column. I have Aqua 2400 on mine and feel it's under floated at the heavier loads but it still takes me to plenty of good places.

    email-800-120-5080.jpg

    Jerry
    On the Aqua floats, you have to pay attention during taxi when fairly light.....hold that yoke back, or you’ll look out and see water coming over tops of the noses of the floats and we’ll back on the decks. But those floats perform well, even when fairly heavy. I suspect they just mounted the plane a little too far forward on the floats.

    I liked the Aquas a lot, the EDO 2440s are also great floats, but scarce. But the Baumanns were the floats the Maule always wanted.

    MTV

  20. #100
    cubflier's Avatar
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    That's an interesting theory on the mounting location of the Aqua 2400. Too bad you can't scoot them back and forth to test. Over time I have written it off as a nose heavy plane on floats that need more floatation. I think the rare Baumanns might be a better fit but my bigger curiosity has been what the straight Whip 3000's would be like. Almost went that route till my wallet chickened out. I really think that a set of Aerocets would be the ticket but when I asked the factory rep at the trade show if they had any plans for developing floats for Maules white foam started coming out of his mouth. I think he has rabies. For grins I ask him that every time I attend the show to induce an attack. Eventually he caught on an now he keeps a box of tissues under the counter.

    Something that I'm not so fond of is the three bladed prop I put on it when I upgraded to the 260hp. It looks so cool that I almost started using hair gel but as far a performance goes I just don't see it. The wallets lighter and the front end is heavier.

    Jerry
    If it looks smooth...it might be

    If it looks rough...it is!!
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  21. #101
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    cubflier,
    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    On the Aqua floats, you have to pay attention during taxi when fairly light.....hold that yoke back, or you’ll look out and see water coming over tops of the noses of the floats and we’ll back on the decks. But those floats perform well, even when fairly heavy. I suspect they just mounted the plane a little too far forward on the floats.
    This is prompting thread creep from Alex's original questions. I'll refrain, unless you want to get into the weeds. We appear to need to discuss loaded CG and step position in relation to the CG as it applies to the Maule.
    N1PA

  22. #102
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    I have now looked at more than a few Maules as part of my new plane quest. One thing to really jumps out is that Maule prices have jumped up like crazy ion the past two years. Particularly with the M6 and M7 series.
    This had led some old M5 owners to become very delusional as well.
    I have always seen the Maules as an interim step ( load-range wise) between a souped up 180-210hp C170B/172 or 180hp Sedan... and the C-180/85 series.
    So back when they were $50,000 to $75,000 planes, a buyer could rationalize the purchase. However there are now M6s going for 120K and M7s have gone crazy.
    At those prices, the reason to buy a M6 or M7 instead of a 180/85 slips away.
    Can a heavily modified $120,000 M-6 do much more on wheels than a C-180 /85?? Yes it can,,, just like a tricked out Carbon Cub can beat a stock 1960 PA-18 with original tires.

    I suspect that the reason Maules have jumped in price is the same reason Super Cubs jumped up 20 years ago. The market for utility buyers / owners was long since full up, but they became popular in the sport-weekend-adventure market with non utility operators. A boutique market of sorts.
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  23. #103
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Have you considered Post #96?

    Gary

  24. #104
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    The American Legion Post 96 PO Box 5096 Lima, Ohio 45802
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  25. #105
    Bowie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Clark View Post
    I have now looked at more than a few Maules as part of my new plane quest. One thing to really jumps out is that Maule prices have jumped up like crazy ion the past two years. Particularly with the M6 and M7 series.
    This had led some old M5 owners to become very delusional as well.
    I have always seen the Maules as an interim step ( load-range wise) between a souped up 180-210hp C170B/172 or 180hp Sedan... and the C-180/85 series.
    So back when they were $50,000 to $75,000 planes, a buyer could rationalize the purchase. However there are now M6s going for 120K and M7s have gone crazy.
    At those prices, the reason to buy a M6 or M7 instead of a 180/85 slips away.
    Can a heavily modified $120,000 M-6 do much more on wheels than a C-180 /85?? Yes it can,,, just like a tricked out Carbon Cub can beat a stock 1960 PA-18 with original tires.

    I suspect that the reason Maules have jumped in price is the same reason Super Cubs jumped up 20 years ago. The market for utility buyers / owners was long since full up, but they became popular in the sport-weekend-adventure market with non utility operators. A boutique market of sorts.
    I don't see the $120,000 M6 that's for sale as heavily modified. If anything I'd call it nicely rebuilt. New fabric, paint and glass plus decent avionics. The flaps update/mod kit is the current production wing used by Maule. Bushwheels and extended gear were installed. Actually everything on that M6 aside from the MT propeller is available on a factory new Maule except for the price, I bet a new M7 with the same specs would be North of $300K. To me, heavily modified means something along the lines of "Bushwacker" from long props or Bill Duncans "Super Maule" both one offs. I also think Maules and 180/185's are an apples and oranges comparison. No wrong choice just different animals. The $120K M6 also falls into pay now or pay later, price out new paint,glass,fabric,avionics,gear, bushwheels, mt prop and modern wings to see were you end up. You won't get that on anything for low budget money. I have no connection to the M6 for sale just my 2 cents.


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  26. #106
    aktango58's Avatar
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    The M-5 is a solid plane. I have the heavy Lycoming on the front, and can imagine with nothing in the back it would be nose heavy on floats; solution is to put weight in the back when empty...

    Oh, wait- fly with 40 lbs in the back of the baggage when empty and she is better on wheels also!
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  27. #107
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    There is a REALLY nice looking C-180 with 260 hp on Barnstormers right now for $120 K. Looks like a sweet machine. I’d take that any day over a comparably priced Maule, assuming it is indeed a good clean machine. And I like Maules.

    MTV

  28. #108
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    Bowie: there are 3 M6s in that price range. Nice planes, just lots more than they were two or three years ago. As the old saying goes, the best Maules have been rebuilt ( at least the older ones from back in the 70s-80s) We agree that the Maule to 180/185 comparison is apples and oranges. As I said, in my mind they are in between a 185 and the lighter load aircraft.

  29. #109
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    MTV, I have sent you a PM and an email today.

  30. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    There is a REALLY nice looking C-180 with 260 hp on Barnstormers right now for $120 K. Looks like a sweet machine. I’d take that any day over a comparably priced Maule, assuming it is indeed a good clean machine. And I like Maules.

    MTV
    That is a nice looking 180, Bet it won’t be for sale long....

  31. #111
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    1971 cessna 180h skywagon • $130,000 • sold in two days!! thanks to barnstormers •

  32. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregory View Post
    That is a nice looking 180, Bet it won’t be for sale long....
    Sold.
    Not to me.


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  33. #113
    Bowie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    There is a REALLY nice looking C-180 with 260 hp on Barnstormers right now for $120 K. Looks like a sweet machine. I’d take that any day over a comparably priced Maule, assuming it is indeed a good clean machine. And I like Maules.

    MTV
    I took a look at the 180 on Barnstormers. It sure does look nice. I am partial to Maules, but that being said I have zero 180 time so maybe I take MTV's hint and try one on, although my only point was that any solid aircraft with some bells and whistles costs $$ and I agree that used Maules specifically seem to have jumped in price. Now off to work so I can afford to feed the beast $5/gall Avgas for a fun ride to eat my $100 hamburger,

  34. #114
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    A couple days ago I was contacted by an M5-235 owner who has decided to sell. He saw my ( looking to buy ) ad. After a very long phone call he basically had a rebuilt M5 without any floats. He then decided that is was worth $125,000 because that was how much he had sunk into her over the years. He will owning it for a while longer.

  35. #115
    aktango58's Avatar
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    When I was shopping I found one I liked, but the price was at $67,000. A year later same plane, same picture was advertised at $55,000.

    Don't give up hope, often these sit for a while until owners get real.

    If we lose a dog, maybe I should sell you mine...
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  36. #116
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    My problem is that my business planes for the summer are on hold until I find another plane.
    I looked at an M5 a couple months ago that I really liked. Very clean, extended gear, floats and a very nice panel.
    Plus the owner is a super nice guy.
    I was hung up on some log book issues and an odd compression history.

  37. #117
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Clark View Post
    I was hung up on some log book issues and an odd compression history.
    Alex, If you like this plane, wouldn't it be easy enough to correct those discrepancies?
    N1PA
    Likes DirtDobber liked this post

  38. #118
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    I will send you a PM.

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