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Thread: Have been eyeballing Maules for float work.

  1. #1
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    Have been eyeballing Maules for float work.

    I sold the PA-11 Cub a while back and sold the 172n on floats in October. I have been shopping around for my next plane or planes for my float business. Back when I was not really looking there were affordable Maules here and there. Now they are all in hidding . M7-235s are kinda scarce right now and not all M6s had the float mod frames. Not so sure how am MX7-235 would be on floats. Probably a lot like an M5-235.
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    Mush's Avatar
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    I did my seaplane rating with Rich Hensch of Florida Seaplanes years ago in a MX7-235. I think he is ready to retire, but his son David is taking over operations. They would both be a wealth of knowledge on the MX7. Check them out here http://www.flyfloatplanes.com/

  3. #3
    S2D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Clark View Post
    Not so sure how am MX7-235 would be on floats. Probably a lot like an M5-235.
    Cant remember the exact lineage but the later MX-7s wings were only slightly shorter than the M-7. Not short like the M5
    I may be wrong but that probably won't stop me from arguing about it.

  4. #4
    aktango58's Avatar
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    There used to be an operator out of Kotz my friends flew with. Was great for all they did.

    I do know where an M-5-201 on floats is for sale.

    Everyone that has flown them say great things about them.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  5. #5
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Might as well throw this out as a local starter Maule: http://alaskaslist.com/1/posts/10_Tr..._M_4_210C.html

    Probably 2-3 soul fishing fool in the right hands.

    Gary

  6. #6
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    It has been for sale for awhile. Most of my experience with Maules has been M7s and M6s on floats. a little (maybe 40 hours) with M5s on wheels .
    Not interested in a 4, The prices on long wing 7s has gone up enough that I might as well just buy a nice 180s or older 185.

    Just ruled out one M5 I liked due to some concerns I have, hope to hear from another owner tomorrow. Thought I had a line on a MX7-235 in Georgia but the guy never got back to me when I stated asking questions.

    So far it seems to me there are two types of Maule Owners.
    1. Those who know everything about Maules and how to flying them.
    2. Those who do not know much about their own plane and were talked into buying a Maule by somebody in group 1.
    Last edited by Alex Clark; 01-25-2018 at 12:54 AM.
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  7. #7
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    I owned an M-5-235 40 yrs ago but never on floats. And yes I'd want a longer wing than an M-4 or 5. They were popular once on Fiberfloats but that soon soured when the floats' rigging started to unravel. Aqua 2400's seem popular. EDO 2440's are around too. I see you posted on the Maule Forum so maybe the experienced will offer advice and a source.

    I flew the C-180 some but mostly the C-185 for three engines. If I had to choose I'd not screw around and just get a 185 some older pilot hates to sell but has to and pay and play it out. You know these matters so that's nothing new.

    Gary

  8. #8
    aktango58's Avatar
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    The M-7s do cost a bit, that is for sure, but find a 185 in the same condition and then measure prices, condition makes a big difference.

    My mechanic told me the average owner flies a maule between 50-150 hours total, or over 1,000. Group one scares themselves and will never get in it again, (mine came from such an owner), the other learns to fly it and finds they can do most everything they desire while carrying the kitchen sink.

    One advantage of them is price of parts. Just your average Cessna part starts at $1,000, my tail steering fork was less than $200.

    The short wings do reduce lift, so we compensate with lots of power. Admittedly I am not any great with the plane yet, but it is coming. They do not fly like the Cessna, or cub. Until it becomes natural to fly them like a Maule they will not seem to perform.

    The M-5 210 I was instructing a guy in we had two BIG guys in front, and one average in back and lots of fuel. Impressive out of the water on a calm day. Again, you need to fly it different than the Cessna.

    There seem to be people that hate the aircraft without much knowledge- usually parrot from others; there are also those that got bit by one in the past that dislike them due to their past experience- they do not suffer fools lightly, nor do pacers.

    I don't know what your goal is, but the M-5 is not super expensive, and will do well for performance.

    Are you looking to continue instructing? Or have another gig up your sleeve?
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  9. #9
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    I hadn't considered parts support as haven't owned Maule for a long time or Cessna ever. Same for maintenance expenses. A&P's that maintain them would know the expected issues. Hope it works ok eventually.

    Gary

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    I have a friend who has a Maule on straight Baumanna. It just sits in his hangar all pickled and sitting for three years. It is in upstate New Your. Maybe he will want to sell it?

    Jim

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    Oh yes. It is an M7.

    Jim

  12. #12
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    Oh Hubba Hubba...a pickeled 7..

    I looked at a 5 the other day which I really liked, until I saw the engine log books, compressions and how it had sat for a few years outside. The price was ok and I have cash in my account. But,, little warning klaxons were going off in my head.

    I may hear from another 5 owner today. Hopefully. He is pretty busy.

    There is a wonderful 6 down in Texas, but the seller does not think it has the float reenforced framework. ( the triangular piece under where the passenger door and cargo door meet. )

    The lower horsepower MX7s have the 32.11 universal wing, but for some reason or another the older MX7-235s had the shorter (30.10) square tip wings. But at least they have the 4 notch torque tube flap system and not the 2 notch M5 cable system for the flaps.

  13. #13
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    AKTANGO 58 I sent you a PM.

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    Just curious what the 172 wasn’t doing for ya? Seems like it would be fine for sea level float ratings. Obviously the airplanes your looking at are a huge step above the 172 in some ways.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  15. #15
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    AlaskaRallyer: The 172 was great for float ratings and was the best step-turn plane on floats I have flown.
    But,,, I also used it for family flying and fishing trips. The legal load was too limited and some of the smaller lakes needed more climb angle. It would get out of the water pretty fast with two people and half fuel, but the angle of climb at up lake distance pretty fast.
    Last edited by Alex Clark; 01-25-2018 at 11:57 PM.

  16. #16
    algonquin's Avatar
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    Hi Alex, this fall I flew a M-7-260 on 3000 wip amph's. Very nice airplane with maybe 300 tt. Flew it several times in 30kts of wind and it seemed to do better than the 230 hp M-7 I was flying. I can't say anything bad about it but wasn't hauling anything or working hard. With two in it it got off the water very well and climbed good.

  17. #17
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    I have some time in an M7-260 on straight floats. It was a real zippy bird.
    Sometimes fuel injection while on floats can be something to think about.

  18. #18

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    I have no use for Maules of any model!
    Tim
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    FWIW... Brown's Seaplane Base in Winterhaven, FL now has a M-7-235 they are using for training. They might have some leads or info.

  20. #20

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    Funny, I’ve never owned or flown a Maule, however, watching a couple of them at Greenville was impressive.
    Long time steady company making planes through thick and thin. Not even the best known light aircraft of all time, the Super Cub, has that kind of “same company” track record. Bankrupt, bought, sold, modified, modified some more, renamed, etc. It’s all good though. Mostly. Can you even buy a certified Super Cub now? Oh, a Top Cub. Is that a Super Cub? Yes no maybe kinda. Point being, I’d like to know whats wrong with a Maule...
    Roddy

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    Sorry, I was asking Mit Greb.
    Roddy

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by roddym View Post
    sorry, i was asking mit greb.
    Roddy
    long long story......
    Tim

  23. #23
    G44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mit greb View Post
    long long story......

    Ive got all night.....

  24. #24

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    I'm in the same camp as Mit. For starters, count the rivets in the top of the Maule wing and compare that to, oh, a Cessna wing. Or the number of stitches in a Cub wing.

    RK
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  25. #25
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    What might be considered is longevity and retained value. Put $$$$$$ into an airplane and where will your investment plus accrued maintenance be down the flight line? Airplanes aren't investments....they're tools, or for some toys, that wear out or loose value. Some unfortunately more than others.

    We all know some that have gone west in a plane that apparently failed them. Something to think about when buying.

    Gary

  26. #26

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    Ask a mechanic that worked on Maules, what they think of Maules.
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  27. #27
    Bowie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indabush View Post
    Ask a mechanic that worked on Maules, what they think of Maules.
    You guys are harsh I'm on my second Maule I've got 1200 hrs between the two I'm not saying they're the epitome of fit and finish, but they are an honest airplane I fly the hell out of mine and love it.


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  28. #28
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Havent worked on one for years. Not all fond memories, but it was nitpicky design things I didnt like

    FWIW, mechanics opinions are opinions.

    Hopefully we all deal with mechanics who can separate their opinions from facts and data. Hopefully I can do that!

  29. #29

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    I’m with Bowie,
    ive owned 2 M7s with about 750 hrs combined.
    They’re a bit of a black sheep in the GA world but an honest plane that does exactly what it was designed to do.
    Mentioned earlier; 2 camps - pilots that are scared of them, and pilots that love em.
    if you haven’t scared the crap out of yourself in the first 10 hrs, and stick with it, you’ll start to appreciate how capable they are. 100 hrs seems to be the magic number before you’re “wearing” the plane.
    Yes, mechanics bitch about them a lot, but once you’ve learned the idiosyncrasies of how they come apart and go back together for annual, no big deal. Parts? Theyre still in business, without the Univair sticker shock.
    Bang for your buck? Twice the plane as a cub for the same$
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  30. #30

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    Wup Winn seems to like them. His Back Country Connection web pics include a lot of good looking Maules. Not my first choice but I respect that is is for some guys.

    http://www.backcountryconnection.com/about/

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by mit greb View Post
    long long story......
    K, just finished dinner, got a fire going in the fireplace.
    Im listening...

  32. #32
    cubflier's Avatar
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    If it looks smooth...it might be

    If it looks rough...it is!!
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  33. #33
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Some time just for fun, pull a 185 and a Maule side by side and lay out a pallet of moose antlers or large drums of fuel. Go ahead and start loading and see which plane is easier!

    Nothing like having the entire side open up for making loading easy!
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  34. #34
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    I'd go fly one now on floats...like in Florida at Brown's, Florida Seaplanes mentioned earlier, or wherever the water's warm and wet? Ask about maintenance and explore the envelope. Maybe find a similar Cessna and test it too. Nothing like back to back to end the speculation.

    Gary
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 01-28-2018 at 12:23 PM. Reason: added operator
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  35. #35
    nanook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G44 View Post
    Ive got all night.....
    A friend of his was killed by a Maule, structural failure. They are a cheaply made aircraft, not sure how they were certificated that way?
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  36. #36
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    At least a couple were in a question about structural failure...one near the Etiviluk River/North Brooks Range and one near Sithlymenkat Lake near the Yukon River/Pipeline crossing. Both experienced pilots. Nothing more to add and it's history not to be repeated. Some talk about certification stress tests prior, turbulence, or fuel and whatever. Airport chatter. Knew them both but it happens and not sure why. Just my recollection.

    Gary
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  37. #37
    Bowie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    A friend of his was killed by a Maule, structural failure. They are a cheaply made aircraft, not sure how they were certificated that way?
    There are limitations to any aircraft. Borrowing from an older post I copied and pasted the NTSB Number below. 80mph winds with higher gusts, float plane, two occupants not certain on how much fuel and gear aka gross weight at the time.

    ASF Accident Details
    8/23/1996
    NTSB Number: ANC96FA131
    Aircraft and Flight Information
    Make/Model MAULE / M-4/5/6/7
    Tail Number N5656A
    Airport N/A
    Light Conditions Day
    Basic WX Conditions VMC
    Phase of Flight Cruise

    As an FYI I don't believe that Maule wing skins are considered structural. I'm very sorry to hear friends were lost, I'm pretty sure that the majority of us have had one or two "But for the Grace of God Moments" planes are machines and they have limits, Maules are certified through the same FAA process as all the rest. when we push those limits we're test pilots. Lots of factors here that I think are unknown. Here's the definition of severe and extreme turbulence:

    The definition for severe turbulence includes the sentence: “Aircraft may be momentarily out of control.” Extreme turbulence is defined as “turbulence in which the aircraft is violently tossed about and is practically impossible to control. It may cause structural damage.

    This is my opinion, I realize there's others.


    Sent from my iPad using SuperCub.Org mobile app

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    At least a couple were in a question about structural failure...one near the Etiviluk River/North Brooks Range and one near Sithlymenkat Lake near the Yukon River/Pipeline crossing. Both experienced pilots. Nothing more to add and it's history not to be repeated. Some talk about certification stress tests prior, turbulence, or fuel and whatever. Airport chatter. Knew them both but it happens and not sure why. Just my recollection.

    Gary
    One incident of structural failure, well documented here already.
    The other, I believe, was attributed to poor maintenance - wing strut corrosion was the culprit, also well documented.
    (the wing folded up when the pilot did a low flyby over his cabin)

  39. #39
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bowie View Post
    There are limitations to any aircraft. Borrowing from an older post I copied and pasted the NTSB Number below. 80mph winds with higher gusts, float plane, two occupants not certain on how much fuel and gear aka gross weight at the time.

    ASF Accident Details
    8/23/1996
    NTSB Number: ANC96FA131
    Aircraft and Flight Information
    Make/Model MAULE / M-4/5/6/7
    Tail Number N5656A
    Airport N/A
    Light Conditions Day
    Basic WX Conditions VMC
    Phase of Flight Cruise

    As an FYI I don't believe that Maule wing skins are considered structural. I'm very sorry to hear friends were lost, I'm pretty sure that the majority of us have had one or two "But for the Grace of God Moments" planes are machines and they have limits, Maules are certified through the same FAA process as all the rest. when we push those limits we're test pilots. Lots of factors here that I think are unknown. Here's the definition of severe and extreme turbulence:

    The definition for severe turbulence includes the sentence: “Aircraft may be momentarily out of control.” Extreme turbulence is defined as “turbulence in which the aircraft is violently tossed about and is practically impossible to control. It may cause structural damage.

    This is my opinion, I realize there's others.


    Sent from my iPad using SuperCub.Org mobile app
    That NTSB report was based largely on testimony of a couple of non pilots who probably couldn’t tell a 20 mph wind from a 80mph wind. And completely ignored the testimony of two people the pilots left on a lake nearby, who testified the wind there was virtually calm. 80 mph winds and extreme turbulence just a few miles from where the winds were virtually calm.

    It also ignored the fact that the accident airplane wS in fact the flight test prototype for the M-7 design. Which means that airplane had been subjected by the factory to stresses in all probability beyond “normal” limits, before it was sold.

    After this accident,in which top wing skins departed the aircraft (as opposed to a wing coming off), an FAA Inspector examined a number of Maules and noted smoking rivets in top wing skins.....some would call that a “clue”. But, that Inspector was told to stop looking, and NTSB never mentioned this, nor did they follow up.

    The Maule M-5 accident Gary mentioned at Sithleminkat Lake was called a stall/spin loss of control accident by NTSB, even though there were clear skid marks down the hill preceding the crash site. The NTSB chose to ignore pertinent information developed by the husband of the pilot of that airplane......information which has the potential for saving a life.

    That was when I stopped taking NTSB reports as gospel. If it’s a report about an airliner accident, they pull out all the stops and try to get to the actual cause. In general aviation accidents, the NTSB seems to at least occasionally be satisfied to ignore potentially important data, on their way to a “pilot error” conclusion. There is no doubt that in the latter case I noted that pilot error was the proximate cause of the accident, but there was no stall/spin, and there was information presented that was ignored. Information which could be a factor in future accidents.

    MTV
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  40. #40
    aktango58's Avatar
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    MTV,

    I would like to hear more about the 'Life Saving Information' you mention; Might be my life I save.

    Any aircraft has the potential to kill us, as can any automobile.

    I agree that if you look at almost any Maule with some time on it, you can find a smoking rivet or two on the top of the wing, on most Cessna 180/185 and piper Six series aircraft you will find cracked skins along the spar line after some time- the six in a few thousand hours, the cessnas usually take a little longer.

    Our forums are full of questions about stuff that will kill us not working correctly. How many fuel system questions have we had about Cessnas not working correctly? Locally we had a 207 last fall hit the water due to a fuel issue.

    How many engine troubles have been asked about in all types of aircraft?

    Bottom line, no matter who made it and how new or old your aircraft is, taking the time to inspect it, money and effort to maintain it, and flying within it's envelope can save lives- maybe your own.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

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