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Thread: 200 hp Javron

  1. #1

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    200 hp Javron

    I read a lot about 160 hp vs 180 hp SCs and the positive increase in overall performance. We are applying the Cont. Titan X370 200 hp engine to a wide body JAVRON build. Catto 84 x 45. Other than the standard +20 hp answer - can anyone provide real-world feedback on the change in performance we may see? Doing web searches I cannot find much info regarding 200 hp SCs.

  2. #2
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    What will it weigh?

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

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    Would hope we could see something less than 1150 lbs. Will have 31s

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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Run it with the CG towards the aft end of the range for best performance. Do a spread sheet weight and balance. Load it as you would fly it with baggage and back seat passenger with full fuel. If your calculations of most rearward CG are forward of 20" aft of the wing LE place some fixed ballast at the tail post.
    N1PA

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    I'm curious. What was your design objective when you selected 200hp and a fixed pitch prop? No criticism. It ought to be a beast. The rate of climb should be excellent and remain excellent with a load.
    Last edited by stewartb; 01-11-2018 at 05:05 PM.

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    Regarding my design objective - great question. Our airport (El Paso, TX)is challenged by DA. Not uncommon to see 7000 DA by 11 AM during the summer months. A O320 (160) at 7000 DA is only able to make approximately 130 HP. The X370 under the same conditions should make 160 HP. That said I thought the additional HP would work in our favor. As for a fixed pitch CATTO - I am a big fan of SIMPLICITY in aircraft design and maintenance. This same logic is seen in our panel. Single G3X with a few switches. See thread - Another Javron build for those details.

  7. #7

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    Does your engine have a hollow crank?

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    It is a hollow crank...

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    Future options! I'm looking forward to pireps. Good luck with the firewall forward.
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  10. #10

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    For the added weight, wouldn't a 180 hp and a constant speed prop work better?

  11. #11

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    Elpcub, I am also going with a Titan 0-370 on a wide body Javron cub with ground adjustable Whirlwind prop. Jay welded up a conical mount with lowered thrust line mod. With lightweight accessories, this should be comparable weight to a parallel valve 0-360. My reasons for going with this engine are 8000 ft mountains, the Cascades, just east of me. Good luck on your project and let’s stay in touch!

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    Is anyone flying the Titan 370 in a Cub airframe? How are the engine temps? Are you guys doing anything out of the ordinary to manage the engine temps?
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    cgoldy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Is anyone flying the Titan 370 in a Cub airframe? How are the engine temps? Are you guys doing anything out of the ordinary to manage the engine temps?
    I have been running the o-370 8.5:1 in a Javron wide body for 8 years now and have come to the conclusion that the oil cooling system design needs particular attention. Regularly fly at above 100 deg OAT and never see more than 370 deg CHT but 210 to 230 deg oil temp is common at these ambient Temps.

    I have a sweet spot to fly. Too slow and temps go up. Too fast and temps go up. 2300 at 22 inches. About 78 knots. It's all about managing the power produced / air speed. Fly at gross weight in these temps and you must be diligent.

    Before all you boffins start another oil temp debate and start criticising my baffles. They are fine. Just saying, if you are designing a build using a high HP motor, think about the oil temp issue.

    Appart from that, a sweet sweet motor built by Aerosport. Rarely use all that Hp but when you need it, it's great. It's like a little money in the bank.

    Goldy
    Back Country O-375 wide body extended wing cub

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    I'm always interested in how some hot-rod parallel valve engines have hot CHTs and others have hot oil temps, in seemingly similar installations.

    How is the Titan 370 different from the Aerosport Power 375? I see the 370 uses 9.6:1 compression. What else?
    Last edited by stewartb; 01-12-2018 at 05:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Is anyone flying the Titan 370 in a Cub airframe? How are the engine temps? Are you guys doing anything out of the ordinary to manage the engine temps?

    Concerning engine cooling. I figured this thread might drift to this very important topic since additional HP was being applied.


    For the oil we will place the Aero Classic 7 row oil cooler out on the nose bowl. Looking at following the design used by a Backcountry rev 2 poster here on sc.org. This is also the proven method Mooney used for years on their 20s. The oil cooler is applied directly to the nose bowl without the traditional PA18 oil cooler nose bowl intake scoop. Nice smooth nose bowl. This also reduces the increase chance for additional air pressure being built in the lower cowling chamber which is also a bad thing. In the center area of the nose bowl just below the fly wheel we are riveting and glassing in two 40 thousands (sandwich the nose bowl) pieces of aluminum to create the required support structure to mount the light weight oil cooler too.


    For the CHT we plan to apply all the lessons learned from this forum. There is no one solution to beating down CHTs moving through he air at 85 mph. As many will testify it requires valuable time spent in both the high and low pressure chambers to get it right. Some go with a single or dual plenum in the high pressure area. Most folks spend loads of hrs during phase one redesigning to reduce CHTs. Again we are simply going with the most common positive results posted on this and many sites.


    We plan to go the baffle and seal route with several modifications. Most notably are large inlet ramps, quality seal material applied to the baffles, building out the baffle behind the #3 cylinder, closing out the JOG behind the #4 cylinder for a single seal across the back and a clean airlock on the inter cylinder baffles. Additionally we will port the heat muff scat tube from the rear area behind the #4 cylinder where most folks attach their oil cooler. Plan to cover that port during high temperature months to maintain the greatest degree of high pressure in the upper chamber.


    In the lower chamber it is key to provide a exit area with an aggressive lip to set condition for air to flow. Plan to also add two exit vents directly to the lower cowling panel. One area often over looked is the opening behind the round air filter on carburetor set ups. To the degree possible this area needs to be closed of as well to prevent unwanted high pressure from building up in the low chamber area.


    RTV, RTV, RTV to tie it altogether.


    Now. You can get all this right and still have resulting high CHTs. How so you might ask - employ the wrong carburetor. Many CC Titan 340 guys will agree that the best change they ever made was removing the 4SPA jumping to the 4-5 to gain proper fuel flow.
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  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by cgoldy View Post
    I have been running the o-370 8.5:1 in a Javron wide body for 8 years now and have come to the conclusion that the oil cooling system design needs particular attention. Regularly fly at above 100 deg OAT and never see more than 370 deg CHT but 210 to 230 deg oil temp is common at these ambient Temps.

    I have a sweet spot to fly. Too slow and temps go up. Too fast and temps go up. 2300 at 22 inches. About 78 knots. It's all about managing the power produced / air speed. Fly at gross weight in these temps and you must be diligent.

    Before all you boffins start another oil temp debate and start criticising my baffles. They are fine. Just saying, if you are designing a build using a high HP motor, think about the oil temp issue.

    Appart from that, a sweet sweet motor built by Aerosport. Rarely use all that Hp but when you need it, it's great. It's like a little money in the bank.

    Goldy
    Goldy. Where is your oil cooler mounted. On the nose bowl??? Behind #4 cylinder?

  17. #17
    PerryB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgoldy View Post

    Before all you boffins start another oil temp debate and start criticising my baffles. They are fine.

    Goldy
    This is Supercub.org. I think the word you were looking for is "Buffoon". BTW, check your baffles....
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !

  18. #18
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Boffin is a British slang term for a scientist, engineer, or other person engaged in technical or scientific research and development
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boffin

    So maybe it's not as bad as it sounds. Or maybe worse?
    Gordon

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  19. #19
    PerryB's Avatar
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    HA! I say "Buffoon" and look who checks in....
    The boffin I mean, I would never slander you Gordon. Now where's that rolling eye emoji when I need it ?!
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !
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  20. #20
    PerryB's Avatar
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    Sorry, you're just such a convenient target.

    P.S. I had to look it up too. I kinda assumed it meant something akin to buffoon. When I discovered the opposite, my screwed up little mind decided to have some fun with it and then "BAM"! here's Gordon. I just couldn't let such an opportunity go. It wouldn't be right for my idiom. -- Now we find out who the Monty Python fans are. "I'm not dead yet".
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !
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  21. #21
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Always delightful to have friends who are consistently correctable
    Last edited by Gordon Misch; 01-13-2018 at 12:47 AM.
    Gordon

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  22. #22
    cgoldy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post

    How is the Titan 370 different from the Aerosport Power 375? I see the 370 uses 9.6:1 compression. What else?
    Actually, that's an interesting question for me. My motor (O-375 low compression from Bart) has rocker covers on it with "Titan" stamped on them. At the risk of sounding ignorant, what does that signify?

    Goldy
    Back Country O-375 wide body extended wing cub

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by elpcub View Post
    Goldy. Where is your oil cooler mounted. On the nose bowl??? Behind #4 cylinder?
    Behind # 4 but considering moving it to the nose bowl. I like your plan. You have obviously thought this problem through.
    Back Country O-375 wide body extended wing cub

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by cgoldy View Post
    Actually, that's an interesting question for me. My motor (O-375 low compression from Bart) has rocker covers on it with "Titan" stamped on them. At the risk of sounding ignorant, what does that signify?

    Goldy
    Titan was a brand name that ECI used for their cylinders and experimental engines just like Millennium is a brand name for Superior Air Parts. Continental bought ECI and continues to use the Titan brand name for non-Continental cylinders and exp engines. Aerosport still lists their 375 engine and Titan sells a complete 370 engine. I don't know much about either one.

    What size cooler do you have on the rear baffle? When I built my 160hp -12 I used the 9 vein Niagara 20003A to increase cooling capacity. It required partial covering to maintain normal oil temps. I'd think a 9 vein cooler would be standard equipment for any hot-rodded engine, or any engine in 100* climates whether on the nose or the rear baffle. My new plane has two coolers in the nose.
    Last edited by stewartb; 01-13-2018 at 11:44 AM.
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  25. #25

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    I have the 9 vein behind #4 on my 160 hp cub it works great. I do have the vertical plate behind #4 with hook on the top to help direct air to the cylinder. The hot rod engines do make some heat so anything that can be done helps.
    DENNY
    Last edited by DENNY; 01-13-2018 at 07:21 PM.

  26. #26
    mvivion's Avatar
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    As a point of reference, when Aviat put the IO 360 angle valve 200 hp engine in the Husky, they had to go to two oil coolers to meet certification (read worst case) Standards. That cowling also has side vents.

    MTV

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    I didn’t know that. Where do they mount the two coolers? How are they plumbed? Anyone have pictures?
    Last edited by stewartb; 01-13-2018 at 09:02 PM.

  28. #28
    Todd long's Avatar
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    Not exactly the same but I have experience in a wide body Javeron with about 230hp. IO-390 with constant speed.

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    How did they get 230hp from a factory engine rated at 210hp?

  30. #30
    Todd long's Avatar
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    Have you ever had one on a dyno? A new one will top 215 out of the box easily, slightly higher after full break in. Add a good exhaust and it’s there. If you want more send to lycon and port and flow balance.

  31. #31

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    I do have a dyno report on my SAP engine. I even added an improved fuel servo to get 5 more ponies. So yes, I know exactly how much power my engine makes. Maybe that’s a handicap. If I didn’t have a dyno report I could make a number up.

    Lycoming does have 215hp models of the 390. They use tuned cold air induction and a different RSA servo to get the extra 5hp. Superior’s IO400 base model makes 215hp but comes with tuned cold air induction and the exp version of RSA injection. With the upgrade to the API 200A servo mine made 220hp, which Superior says is plus 5 from the norm. My servo inlet temp on dyno day was 150*. So much for cold air. Dallas in August. Welcome to hell!

    Does Continental run their exp engines on a dyno while in the test cell? I’ve bought a couple of reman engines from Continental and although they were run-in at the factory I never saw any reports from the test runs. The newest Carbon Cub engine is a Superior and is rated at 186hp. Are they providing dyno reports with each engine?
    Last edited by stewartb; 03-11-2018 at 11:35 AM.

  32. #32

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    I few pics to show how we have made some progress in reworking the VANS O360 baffle kit. BTW - I have no current complaints as to the fitting of the VANS baffle product. Quality part. Hard to beat their pricing as well.
    As you can see I have placed the scat tube heater flange low behind the #4 cylinder. Additionally, we will provide a cover plate over that air exit point flange during the summer months to maintain a volume of high pressure cooling air within the upper chamber transition.
    The greater amount of work was done in building out the #3 rear baffle area to allow air flow. Most certified PA18 baffle sets already incorporate this design. Many on the site made this change after their first few flights to beat down CHTs.
    Still many more close fitting corrections to do in order to tighten things up. Happy with the direction we are heading.



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  33. #33

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    ELP - pardon the dramatic change in subject matter - I will be taking a no transponder Chief through your area next week. Last time through Approach was happy with us flying right up the reever, but we had a transponder. Are your controllers friendly, or should I plan on skirting under the class C to the north?

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    Bob.

    El Paso class C is very user friendly. There are a few ways you can transition the area. However, I would recommend doing something along the south side. Between I10 and the Rio Bravo (US MEX boarder). Stay below 5K. Call as you approach the outer ring. Or call the tower (
    (915) 774-9408) at your prior fuel stop and discuss with them directly. I have never seen them turn someone a-way under your similar conditions.


    Hope your flying east this time of year. Or you might being moving backwards in a 11AC. Good luck. PM me if you have problems in ELP. Might be able to help you with a hangar overnight with advanced notice. Safe travels.


    Shep.

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    Thanks! The phone # is in my flight planner. Yes, westbound. Not the first time Volkswagen Vanagons have passed me.

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