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Thread: Panel Discussion: Cessna 180 Upgrades on Poor Webjanitor Budget

  1. #41
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Slightly easier with the 3 panel method vs a single, but keep your mind open about 3 dimensions. Every 1/2" of protrusion into the cabin in the center panel (avionics stack) provides the room needed behind the panel, makes it an easier reach, and easier to see. As long as yokes with hands holding them clears, it's free space.

    A good tech can bend a single raised panel using one piece, or you can switch to 3 panels and mount the center out.

    pb
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  2. #42
    Ken Kennedy's Avatar
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    I'm not a Single Engine IFR type of guy, so we went straight VFR, but I will say, we love the G5, and If I were to go IFR Dual G5's would be the way to go.
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  3. #43
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
    Here is that slippery slope I was talking about....

    sj
    Yes but you did mention $10,000. Unless I'm way off in my labor hours and you do what labor you can you should be close to the $$$. The most time sensitive portion is the panel layout. You can do all of that.
    N1PA

  4. #44
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    My guy has the file saved for the early 180 panels.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  5. #45
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
    Thanks! I think I am going to skip the Y thing. I have had four people offer me Y yokes, one for free! Just seems like a "whole 'nother" can of worms.

    sj
    back when I did that yoke/tree conversion 19? 17? years ago I was told the one main piece was over $4K thats why I looked around for used... you might want to take that person up on the free one!!

  6. #46
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    ....Replace the DG and the ILS indicator with the G-5. https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/57.../K10-00280-30# One instrument replacing two which is a lot easier to use when flying IFR.
    To the best of my knowledge, there's no glideslope indicator on the G5.
    ILS with no GS = localizer approach?
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  7. #47
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    To the best of my knowledge, there's no glideslope indicator on the G5.
    ILS with no GS = localizer approach?
    https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/57...80-20#overview
    "The unit displays both vertical and lateral GPS/VOR/LOC course deviation when available. "

    http://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-01112-12_03.pdf
    Page 9, item 14. and Page 25
    Last edited by skywagon8a; 01-12-2018 at 11:50 AM.
    N1PA

  8. #48

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    If you go to the Garmin page for the G5 and look at the pilot operating manual it shows vertical guidance on the far right side of the HSI and the far left side of the AH. It will not be shown if an ILS freq or a GPS approach with vertical guidance is not selected. The indicator diamond will be green for a ILS or magenta for a GPS indication, in the same fashion as the course deviation indication.

    Tim

  9. #49

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    Well SJ, what’s it going to be?

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by joemcd View Post
    Well SJ, what’s it going to be?
    Bake Sale or Go Fund “Me Panel”
    Last edited by OLDCROWE; 01-14-2018 at 06:50 AM.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

  11. #51
    SJ's Avatar
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    Ok folks, thanks for the awesome input (on line and off line). You have stimulated great contemplation which I am still in the midst of.

    I will report back with more questions, or when I figure it out...

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------

  12. #52
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Just sell the Super Cub to fund the full blown dream panel and be done with it.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  13. #53
    SJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Just sell the Super Cub to fund the full blown dream panel and be done with it.
    Part of the problem is I don't have a "dream" about the panel. I just want it to be a lot more functional. If I had all the money you airplane mechanics have I still would not know exactly what I would want to do.

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------

  14. #54

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    are you an old school round dial kind of guy or an early adopter that likes gadgets?

    I was looking at 180's back before I bought my Citabria. The biggest problem with the panels, IMHO, was that people would modify them but they wouldn't make much of a jump forward in layout/design so to a buyer it still looked like mumble jumble even though the seller was probably pretty impressed by it as it was being done. Having said that, I'd try to get it as close to center stack, left/right standards as possible.

    Isn't there a control yoke mod that updates the controls behind the panel so the layout can be updated? If I remember correctly.

  15. #55
    SJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bart23Sept View Post
    are you an old school round dial kind of guy or an early adopter that likes gadgets?
    I'm an old school guy who likes fancy gadgets made to look like they are old...
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------
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  16. #56
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    He is a gadget freak for sure.

    Let me know when you want to compare financial portfolios and evaluate each others possessions.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
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  17. #57
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    He is a gadget freak for sure.

    Let me know when you want to compare financial portfolios and evaluate each others possessions.
    But you never have to beg the dogs to handle the controls of your own airplane!
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  18. #58

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    is the panel in a 180 considered a structural element?

  19. #59
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bart23Sept View Post
    is the panel in a 180 considered a structural element?
    No

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.

  20. #60

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    then you can do a lot more in the way of rearranging and redesigning the framework of it. but you guys probably knew that, i'm just the new guy trying to keep up.

    if you're handy SJ you can do a lot without spending a lot of $$ just on the panel materials to get the layout exactly how you want it. i did a new panel in an Aztec way back when and it made a huge difference.

  21. #61

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    What you see may not be structural but what lies right behind it is.
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  22. #62

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    isn't that a later model panel? I don't see the interconnect crossing behind the panel and it looks like the center stack is already there

  23. #63
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Order a CGR-30 and bring your check book when you drop it off.
    I have the panel file saved, you could probably put the 430 and audio panel or transponder where johns 530 is.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  24. #64
    Paul Jackson's Avatar
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    Raised by Wolves:

    Does your guy have a 180H panel(s) in his files? I am in the early stages of redo of my 1965 180H. I think I can get out of the vacuum business and I have some decent stuff to work with and some old junk to remove.

    PJJ

  25. #65
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    1953 with the T column

    center stack would fit a 430 above the column and a short #2 com or remote transceiver with control head below 430 and keep the EDM 900 at the bottom of center stack.

    Lose the sixpack for dual G5's with ALT and ASI on the left

    I did this panel with a 430 in mind for the future. with the nav head where the VSI is now. and a mini DG where the G meter is and a mini vsi "somewhere"

    I would go G5 nowadays thinking
    Attached Images Attached Images
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  26. #66
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    Order a CGR-30 and bring your check book when you drop it off.
    I have the panel file saved, you could probably put the 430 and audio panel or transponder where johns 530 is.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I like Spend Money, and she flies very well! She is a great plane for what she does.

    But with all due respect, knowing that the goal is for a couple, both pilots, to use the plane as their 'travel' machine, I would NOT consider spending $10k without going to a center stack.

    Ask yourself why most every new aircraft is set up today with the avionics in the middle? Both seats can comfortably reach, manipulate, and program frequencies and flight plans, Pilot Not Flying can be in either seat working radios while the other person flies the plane. Why would you invest big money and the time into a layout that does not achieve that very simple but important principal, especially for a couple that are both pilots?

    One other idea I would be seriously considering would be to develop the panel with the plan to install a G-5 or similar on the right side, so if you have someone in the right seat that can help or wants to fly in IFR, they can have all the information directly in front of them. That can be an investment down the line, but you might want to have that plan as you lay it out.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  27. #67
    texmex's Avatar
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    is the panel in a 180 considered a structural element?
    No

    Web
    Screen Shot 2017-06-17 at 8.48.58 PM.png

    It's your profession Web, but for my own clarification, what do companies like the above I found on the net do. Are you paying for an STC'd panel or can I simply get the local sheet metal work expert to do the same?

    I don't understand the whole STC'd expensive GPS thing. What does the Garmin 430 do that the Aera 660 won't?

    I'm a round instrument type of guy and have had the above picture saved on my computer as something to aspire to.

    Good luck SJ.
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  28. #68

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    Here's my 53 with U yoke 30 years ago. Loran is long gone, Mk12D smoked this year and replaced with a Ky196 I had on the shelf. Getting ready to start cutting aluminum again.

    164034664.g7jWLFzK.Instpanel3.jpg164034667.oZ9bjFYb.Instpanel.jpg
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  29. #69
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by texmex View Post
    Screen Shot 2017-06-17 at 8.48.58 PM.png

    It's your profession Web, but for my own clarification, what do companies like the above I found on the net do. Are you paying for an STC'd panel or can I simply get the local sheet metal work expert to do the same?

    I don't understand the whole STC'd expensive GPS thing. What does the Garmin 430 do that the Aera 660 won't?

    I'm a round instrument type of guy and have had the above picture saved on my computer as something to aspire to.

    Good luck SJ.
    430 certified IFR with capability to couple to AP for route and approach.

    Next question?
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  30. #70
    L18C-95's Avatar
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    I lease out a Warrior which has a second hand BK KLN94 that speaks to an STEC-20. It also has an old BK 155, and a Garmin 255 Nav/Com/ILS. Vacuum driven AI/DG. The KLN94 is a capable, reliable, unit and can be found for $1k or $2k. While only good for LNAV approaches, and no WAAS, it ticks most of the IFR boxes.

    Even more basic is second hand Apollo GX60 units which are still IFR supported by Garmin. Some might be going free on old avionic shelves.


    Sent from my iPad using SuperCub.Org

  31. #71
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Sure it was a KY196? That's a 24V unit and the '53's were 12V aircraft. Typo or did you rig up some kind of power supply?

    Web

    Quote Originally Posted by Wingwrench View Post
    Here's my 53 with U yoke 30 years ago. Loran is long gone, Mk12D smoked this year and replaced with a Ky196 I had on the shelf. Getting ready to start cutting aluminum again.

    164034664.g7jWLFzK.Instpanel3.jpg164034667.oZ9bjFYb.Instpanel.jpg
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.

  32. #72
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Break it down into sections.

    The vast majority of instrument panels are NOT structural. If you fly this airplane without the panel installed, it won't break. If the aircraft will break, then your panel IS structural. And no floating panels are structural items. Looking at SJ's panel as an example, it's simply a flat piece of aluminum. Cut it to shape. Mark the forward side of the panel to show where the 'no go' areas are, i.e. any place that you don't want to mount something. Then lay out where the mounting hardware will be installed and drill the holes for them. Now carefully lay out and cut for instruments, avionics, and all other items, such as switches, breakers, lights, etc. Keep checking that each new item fits properly to the panel AND into the aircraft. Keep in mind that if you mount square items such as radio trays, you'll need to allow room for the angles and any support brackets. And allow room for paint or powder coating! That portion of the project is a minor alteration and just needs a log book entry.

    Now, any instruments or avionics may or may not be STC'd. If you replace a certified instrument with another like item (also certified) it's a simple log book entry. If you update instruments with something like Electronics International or JPI instruments, it will most likely have an STC on it. Not a big deal. Install it, the mechanic signs off the 337 and the log book, the IA inspects and signs off the 337 and its sent to Oklahoma City. Done.

    Moving or replacing the smaller items such as the switches and panel lights are just log entries by the mechanic.

    As for the STC'd or certified avionics vs non certified, George hit right with the 430 vs 660. The 660 is just a GPS. The 430 was 'certified' so they put it through a BUNCH more testing. And it has a metric ton more capabilities. You can legally and safely fly the GPS or the nav in full IFR. It will drive most primary navigation instruments available. It will also drive a secondary nav head, if you have need for one. It has vertical and horizontal outputs to couple to most auto pilots. And it has multiple data lines to allow it to be coupled to almost any combination of other instruments/items to make up a custom avionics system. Think about being able to upload a flight plan through a unit like a Flightstream. And if you have more than one 430, they can be coupled together to be uploaded simultaneously. You can input pressure altitude from a serial or Gray code altimeter or output GPS altitude to a unit such as a remote display. You can connect up to air/data computers. You can connect DME systems and RMI's. You can even use it, along with a UAT and transponder, to build an ADS-B system. I'm sure there's more that I'm not thinking of.

    Web



    Quote Originally Posted by texmex View Post
    Screen Shot 2017-06-17 at 8.48.58 PM.png

    It's your profession Web, but for my own clarification, what do companies like the above I found on the net do. Are you paying for an STC'd panel or can I simply get the local sheet metal work expert to do the same?

    I don't understand the whole STC'd expensive GPS thing. What does the Garmin 430 do that the Aera 660 won't?

    I'm a round instrument type of guy and have had the above picture saved on my computer as something to aspire to.

    Good luck SJ.
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
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  33. #73
    texmex's Avatar
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    430 certified IFR with capability to couple to AP for route and approach.
    I understand that, but they both tell you the same thing except one has an approved sticker on it (read charge thousands more)
    As per L18C-95's post, what's to stop you buying the cheapest legal IFR unit, putting it out of harms way to check that box and then putting a non certified say Dynon flat screen or even the Garmin Aera 660 on the prime real estate?

    Next question?
    So I can take the above photo along to my sheet metal work man and ask him to make that panel?

    On BeechTalk there is a guy who has produced a newer panel for the very old Bonanza'a and got it STC'd. From that thread I thought as the panel was structural it required certification. I have no idea, hence my novice question.

  34. #74
    texmex's Avatar
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    Sorry Web, you posted as I was typing. But you answer my question. Thanks very much.

  35. #75
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by texmex View Post
    I understand that, but they both tell you the same thing except one has an approved sticker on it (read charge thousands more)
    As per L18C-95's post, what's to stop you buying the cheapest legal IFR unit, putting it out of harms way to check that box and then putting a non certified say Dynon flat screen or even the Garmin Aera 660 on the prime real estate?

    Nothing at all. People up here do that all the time. Just be safe. These small units like the 660 are very capable but you still don't want to intentionally fly IFR with them. Just think of them as emergency insurance to get you out of a bind (in the category of 'better than nothing').



    So I can take the above photo along to my sheet metal work man and ask him to make that panel?

    Sure.

    On BeechTalk there is a guy who has produced a newer panel for the very old Bonanza'a and got it STC'd. From that thread I thought as the panel was structural it required certification. I have no idea, hence my novice question.
    If I modify an instrument panel for a customer, it's usually just a log entry. If I make a package deal and want to market it to everyone, I need to get faa 'permission' to produce aircraft parts. Either a PMA approval or an STC and the STC is usually easier to get.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
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  36. #76
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Wow. That posted weird. Hope you can sort it out. I was trying to address point by point.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.

  37. #77
    texmex's Avatar
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    It read well to me. Thanks for the enlightenment.

  38. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    Sure it was a KY196? That's a 24V unit and the '53's were 12V aircraft. Typo or did you rig up some kind of power supply?

    Web
    Typo, KY97A is what I put in. 1 cup of coffee and below freezing here in FL is my excuse.

  39. #79
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Your going to have to come up to Alaska and warm up, lol.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.

  40. #80
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post

    As for the STC'd or certified avionics vs non certified, George hit right with the 430 vs 660. The 660 is just a GPS. The 430 was 'certified' so they put it through a BUNCH more testing. And it has a metric ton more capabilities. You can legally and safely fly the GPS or the nav in full IFR. It will drive most primary navigation instruments available. It will also drive a secondary nav head, if you have need for one. It has vertical and horizontal outputs to couple to most auto pilots. And it has multiple data lines to allow it to be coupled to almost any combination of other instruments/items to make up a custom avionics system. Think about being able to upload a flight plan through a unit like a Flightstream. And if you have more than one 430, they can be coupled together to be uploaded simultaneously. You can input pressure altitude from a serial or Gray code altimeter or output GPS altitude to a unit such as a remote display. You can connect up to air/data computers. You can connect DME systems and RMI's. You can even use it, along with a UAT and transponder, to build an ADS-B system. I'm sure there's more that I'm not thinking of.

    Web
    You stated the 660 was just a GPS... the 430 also is a flip flop com, in addition to the the long list of cool stuff it does. FYI, the 430 is now outdated and not really supported...

    consider that it there are better units that do more
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

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