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Thread: Paper Charts

  1. #41

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    I fly with paper and follow the pink line as well. You never know if and when we will lose GPS. Just remember it's not illegal to fly without a chart, but it is illegal to fly with an outdated chart

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by wingnut View Post
    I fly with paper and follow the pink line as well. You never know if and when we will lose GPS. Just remember it's not illegal to fly without a chart, but it is illegal to fly with an outdated chart


    That's when I tell them it's being saved as TP

    From Genesis: "And God promised men that good and obedient wives would be
    found in all corners of the earth."

    Then he made the earth round... and He laughed and laughed and laughed!

  3. #43

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    I wouldn't find the same pleasure without paper within reach although use regularly the magic gismos on iPad and iPhone 6.

  4. #44
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    We don't have cell coverage up here, our cold is way colder than your cold...How are you going to get around when everything goes dark? The Feds require our glass panels to still have a backup horizon gyro, altimeter, torque gage and an airspeed indicator...We installed a yoke mounted Garmin GPS that has an internal battery.
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  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by wingnut View Post
    I fly with paper and follow the pink line as well. You never know if and when we will lose GPS. Just remember it's not illegal to fly without a chart, but it is illegal to fly with an outdated chart
    I have a bet for a bottle of port with my CFI on this one. He says the same thing you do. I say you don't for part 91 flying. However can never find anything that says part 91 flying needs a up to date chart.
    DENNY

  6. #46
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    From the FAA Q&A.
    https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flig...ronav/faq/#q8b

    "....you should always carry a current chart with you in flight". (key word should not must)

    3..."since some pilots thought they could be violated for having outdated or no charts on board during a flight, we need to clarify an important issue. As we have said, it is NOT FAA policy to initiate enforcement action against a pilot for having an old chart on board or no chart on board." That's because there is no regulation on the issue.

    5.
    "If a pilot is involved in an enforcement investigation and there is evidence that the use of an out-of-date chart, no chart, or an out-of-date database contributed to the condition that brought on the enforcement investigation, then that information could be used in any enforcement action that might be taken."
    N1PA
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  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    We don't have cell coverage up here, our cold is way colder than your cold...How are you going to get around when everything goes dark? The Feds require our glass panels to still have a backup horizon gyro, altimeter, torque gage and an airspeed indicator...We installed a yoke mounted Garmin GPS that has an internal battery.
    Yes, and my backup horizon, airspeed and altimeter are electronic, just like the primary. Just powered from a different source. In like manner, you keep two chart devices and I go to a second level and have a backup battery for each of them. We have thousands of airline flights dispatch each day with tablet charts and no paper. They have two tablets on board with a backup power source. You don't see anybody carry big "brain bags" around anymore. As for "going dark" that brings up a good point. Would you rather hold a flash light in your mouth trying to look at a paper chart, or have a back lit display from a tablet during an electrical failure? Heck, you can even turn on the light on that tablet as backup instrument lighting. When the airplane goes dark, I know what I want for charts.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    ..... FWIW, I've never had GPS interruption during a NOTAM period for possible loss of coverage. ......
    Me neither.
    FAA regularly outs out notices of possible GPS interuptions due to testing in the area of Bangor Submarine Base in western WA,
    I fly a fair amount within the 95 NM radius subject to disruption down to sea level, but have never had a problem.
    Never bothered to try to cross-reference my flying with the testing hours though.

    Here's a recent example notice
    https://www.faasafety.gov/files/noti...t_Advisory.pdf

    GPS testing is scheduled as follows and may result in unreliable or unavailable GPS signal.

    A. Location: Centered at 474356N1224354W or the SEA VOR 300 degree radial at 25NM.

    B. Dates and times:


    16 OCT 17 1300Z-1559Z 1900Z-2259Z 17 - 20 OCT 17 0100Z-0259Z 0500Z-0659Z 1300Z-1559Z 1900Z-2259Z 21 OCT 17 0100Z-0259Z 0500Z-0659Z 23 OCT 17 1300Z-1559Z 1900Z-2259Z 24 - 27 OCT 17 0100Z-0259Z 0500Z-0659Z 1300Z-1559Z 1900Z-2259Z 28 OCT 17 0100Z-0259Z 0500Z-0659Z 30 OCT 17 1300Z-1559Z 1900Z-2259Z 31 OCT - 3 NOV 17 0100Z-0259Z 0500Z-0659Z 1300Z-1559Z 1900Z-2229Z 4 NOV 17 0100Z-0259Z 0500Z-0659Z 6 NOV 17 1300Z-1559Z 1900Z-2259Z 7 - 10 NOV 17 0100Z-0259Z 0500Z-0659Z 1300Z-1559Z 1900Z-2259Z 11 NOV 17 0100Z-0259Z 0500Z-0659Z 13 NOV 17 1300Z-1559Z 1900Z-2259Z 14 - 17 NOV 17 0100Z-0259Z 0500Z-0659Z 1300Z-1559Z 1900Z-2259Z 18 NOV 17 0100Z-0259Z 0500Z-0659Z

    C. Duration: Each event may last the entire requested period.

    D. NOTAM INFO: NAV (FFC GPS 17-09) GPS (INCLUDING WAAS, GBAS, AND ADSB) MAY NOT BE AVBL WI A 240NM RADIUS CENTERED AT 474356N1224354W (SEA 300025) FL400-UNL, 192NM RADIUS AT FL250 121NM RADIUS AT 10000FT 113NM RADIUS AT 4000FT AGL 95NM RADIUS AT 50FT AGL

    E. Pilots are encouraged to report anomalies only when ATC assistance is required.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  9. #49
    CubCruiser's Avatar
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    Electronic, but I still have (old) WAC charts for multi-state trip planning and I keep a sectional (often old) in the seat back pocket.
    Daryl Hickman, CFI
    N87DH American Super Legend HP
    http://www.CubFlying.com
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  10. #50
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    In July of 2015 I updated the data base in my Garmin aera 560 prior to a flight through Canada and into Alaska. Unknown to me when I left, but not all of the Canadian airports and even a few in Alaska had downloaded. I was glad I have my Canadian charts with me, including some from the 1990's. I hand-entered the coordinates for some airports as user waypoints using the data from the Canadian Flight Supplement.

    Like some others have mentioned, the state charts are my preference to Sectionals and I usually have a few with me along with an AFD.

    The 560 has been replaced with a 796 and it is such a superior tool it is hard to imagine flying without it now.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp
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  11. #51

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    I use 1:250,000 topos on my moving map (tablet) display. I switch to 1:50,000 if I want to go REALLY fast!
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  12. #52

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    Digital. Works pays me too.

    GA, digital. Works pays for that too... (funny how portable an iPad is...)
    battery on the GPS puck died mid flight one night. Somehow I managed not to crash.

    I'm glad someone address the outdated chart issue.

  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by wingnut View Post
    I fly with paper and follow the pink line as well. You never know if and when we will lose GPS. Just remember it's not illegal to fly without a chart, but it is illegal to fly with an outdated chart
    When you lose GPS, ForeFlight is still a map.
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  14. #54

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    My mind seems to work better with paper charts. I keep the GPS armed with speed, distance, bearing, and track, and only really pay attention to other stuff when a TCA or TFR is near.

    But then, I like round instruments too. I have flown the magic, but rather enjoy the older ways. I do have an Airbus type.
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  15. #55
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    I just land and ask were the heck I am
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  16. #56

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    I was bringing a old S2R from Washington to Oklahoma, stopped someplace in Montana at a small airport for fuel and 2 young guys asked if they could look at the airplane, I told them to go ahead. They asked how I knew where I was and where I was going. They saw no GPS only a compass and a chart. They said they were pilots and I explained to them about navigating without GPS and they seemed not to believe anyone could do that. I told them I have a watch, a chart a protractor and a E6b I am doing just fine. BTW, my Bonanza has all the neat stuff but being old school I can get along without it if need be. Being 80 years old I still can make a NDB approach just fine.
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  17. #57
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Do they still paint town names on water towers or train depots? Or arrows to the nearest airport? Why make it so complicated.

    Gary

  18. #58
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    I carry an old out-of-date sectional and a state road map.
    But depend on my tablet for current charts as well as GPS navigation.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  19. #59

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    don't know about that

    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Do they still paint town names on water towers or train depots? Or arrows to the nearest airport? Why make it so complicated.

    Gary
    You tell me, you fly the Taylorcraft.

  20. #60
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargrass View Post
    You tell me, you fly the Taylorcraft.
    I can't tell because the structures noted don't exist where I live. Just thought they may still where others do. As far a plastic vs paper it depends on need. I have no need for either but did buy plastic last year to see what all the fuss was about. So its gotten more out of me than I have out of it.

    Gary

  21. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Do they still paint town names on water towers or train depots? Or arrows to the nearest airport? Why make it so complicated.

    Gary
    I hope so, the one in Kalida Ohio saved my bacon back in 99 when I was scud running between two thunderstorms. I was lost and looking for anyplace to get out of the sky, it was September and all the fields had 11' high corn. If I had to I was landing in the corn. Raining so hard it was running down the floor. 300' ceiling and I looked up at the water tower and saw the town name on it. Figured out where I was and headed down the county hyway towards a county Airport 10 miles away. Saw a hay strip between the corn under me and landed in a monsoon. Turned out to be a duster strip and Dave took me in for the night. Hot shower, dinner and a bed. Ended up on the couch with him and his wife Cindy eating popcorn watching " the man show " Life is good if you let it happed. If a had a GPS it never would have this great story. If you live out that way tell Dave Gerker I said hello

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  22. #62
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Yes knowing where we think we are is important. Haven't eaten fresh corn off the stalk since the middle of the last century so I'd be tempted to find some in adverse weather anyway. Down in the other States without much for terrain features in spots and lots of complex airspace having a GPS would be essential. They even have nav and terrain charts buried inside so I guess they're ok. My Garmin 660 has a little airplane that thinks it's me and dances around in one screen view.

    Gary

  23. #63
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    Lindbergh throttled back and hollered out to a fisherman for a little guidance. Don't forget that option.

  24. #64

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    With all the "Gee Whiz" things we now have it must be difficult for the new pilots to imagine what it was like to have to use dead reckoning navigation. How many of you remember using A-N radio beacons? When the VOR came about I thought it was the utimate and it was at that time.
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  25. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargrass View Post
    With all the "Gee Whiz" things we now have it must be difficult for the new pilots to imagine what it was like to have to use dead reckoning navigation. How many of you remember using A-N radio beacons? When the VOR came about I thought it was the utimate and it was at that time.
    Saying you were a pilot 80 years ago really meant something about your ability to handle any situation. Not so much anymore. We aren't a pimple on someone's ars that flew the first half of the last century.

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  26. #66
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargrass View Post
    How many of you remember using A-N radio beacons?
    I had to demonstrate navigation with the BOS range station as part of my private flight test. In those days if you got to use a Narco Superhomer you were at the top of the heap of electronic navigation.
    N1PA

  27. #67

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    Most have no idea what a superhomer is nor a tuneable receiver where you would zero beat against the crystal. Amazing isn't it, we flew from here to Europe and Asia with all this crude stuff. Would not want to have to do it again.

  28. #68

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    My first airplane, a ragwing 170, had a superhomer in it. I think it had 3 or 4 transmit crystals and a whistle stop receiver tuner.... In Anchorage in ‘75 more than 4 transmit crystals seemed like overkill!

  29. #69
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    My primary flying in Alaska was SE land and sea VFR/MVFR pilotage. Paper chart, terrain, compass, time. Radio Range stations were about gone. Then some VFR/IFR mixed via VOR and NDB to stay current. Loved NDB's and learned to use them when they could be received. We flew too low for VORs most of the time. ARNAV R-40 LORAN-C came along and I thought it worked sometimes. They did ok but geographic location relative to Master and Slave stations limited their use and so did signal to noise ratio that affects reception. Now there's the Plastic Oracle (GPS) to be consulted. But I've never given up having some paper handy.

    Gary

  30. #70

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    It's all magic now to me. J3s without radios, then Taylorcraft BC12D with Lear LTRA6 flying the beam, wow Superhomer and then Wright Executive in first 180. Always paper at hand.
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  31. #71
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    You guys are making me feel negligent. I keep current paper in the plane, but in the last year or so have become trusting enough in the magic that I almost never look at the paper.

    Chart on the knee, and finger on the chart can't possibly be bad. Thanks for the reminders.
    Gordon

    N4328M KTDO
    My SPOT: tinyurl.com/N4328M (case sensitive)

  32. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    Biggest problem I have is keeping things working in the cold! The mini iPad last a tad bit longer than than the iPhone 6 but not much. You start using the things cold and suddenly there is no battery left...Not something that I would use for backup. We are also having to deal with multiple GPS outages from the military during their never ending maneuvers.
    I can second that. Battery life measured in terms of minutes on ipad and iphone when temps in single digits. Often times it won’t charge either until cabin warms up. Garmin works fine though.

    That said...not using paper anymore.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  33. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    Saying you were a pilot 80 years ago really meant something about your ability to handle any situation. Not so much anymore. We aren't a pimple on someone's ars that flew the first half of the last century.

    Glenn
    Maybe not but having Bushwheels soothes my pain

    From Genesis: "And God promised men that good and obedient wives would be
    found in all corners of the earth."

    Then he made the earth round... and He laughed and laughed and laughed!

  34. #74
    Charlie Longley's Avatar
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    Electronics in the 12 with a sectional in the pocket. (It's not current) Paper chart in the glider cause I haven't decided what electronics I want to use.

  35. #75

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    No battery. No electrical system. Garmin 195 that I have had forever and I can figure out where I am on a sectional long before I figure out which button I need to push on the Garmin. I suppose I never gave the effort to learn how to use the damn thing and I couldn't afford the spending spiral for the next biggest baddest gps gizmos. I did have a chart fail me one time. It was a user error. It got sucked out the window in flight. I learned to close all the windows when unfolding a chart after that. Oh. Most of the chart was still on a talbrace wire when I landed.
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  36. #76

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    Hey Glen, I did not intend to say I was a pilot 80 years ago, I think I said I was 80 years old at this time. I started flying in 1957 and that would be about 67 years ago. Just finished the annual inspection on the Champ and Beech yesterday.

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