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Thread: Paper Charts

  1. #1

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    Paper Charts

    Survey on how many still have and use paper charts (IFR, VFR)?

    Yes- why
    No- why

  2. #2
    RatCub Redux FrankO's Avatar
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    Yes & no...yes, I keep one in the cockpit (goes back to my primary CFI & always keeping options open when whatever navigation gizmo you’re using doesn’t work for whatever reason) but no, I do rely primarily on said gizmo.


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  3. #3
    irishfield's Avatar
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    Always on my lap and know where I am..... old school..
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  4. #4
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    I like to have a chart out at all times. My favorites are those state issued aviation charts. Usually free or available for a nominal fee. Sectionals are really expensive.

  5. #5
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankO View Post
    Yes & no...yes, I keep one in the cockpit (goes back to my primary CFI & always keeping options open when whatever navigation gizmo you’re using doesn’t work for whatever reason) but no, I do rely primarily on said gizmo.
    +1 I keep current charts and AFD (green book) in the plane, but rarely use them. They've become a backup resource. Garmin Pilot on the tablet has become primary.
    Gordon

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  6. #6
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Naviator on my pad and a chart on my lap, I trust the chart

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  7. #7
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Paper.

    It doesn't skip, and if I touch it it will not jump, and works for weeks with no battery.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  8. #8
    skukum12's Avatar
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    Paper. Pyongyang cannot hack paper.

    Before I earned my wings I asked a well seasoned pilot why his charts were not current. He said, "The mountains don't move."
    "Always looking up"
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  9. #9

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    No. Too much trouble and money to keep current. Between two panel mounts, a 696, an iPad or two, an iPhone, and maybe a passenger’s iPhone, I think I’ve got the redundancy thing covered!
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  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by skukum12 View Post
    Paper. Pyongyang cannot hack paper.
    Humm, I’m guessing they are digitally printed these days so....
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!
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  11. #11

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    What Oldcrowe said. Right now for instance you can get paper nautical charts. You go to a chart dealer and he inserts a big piece of paper in a big HP printer and out comes your chart. There is no difference between digitized charts and paper charts. The paper ones are printed from the same file. I suspect in the future the same thing will happen to paper charts in aviation. The biggest point of error is not the digitization but the drawing of instrument procedure charts from the text version. When the FAA creates an instrument approach procedure it is textual, not charted and that text becomes part of Part 97. Cartographers then take that text and turn it into a chart. Sectionals are still completely drawn, but digitized for future printing.

    I use strictly electronic charts both personally, professionally and on my boat. I just make sure I have at least two devices, with two power backups for those devices. One power source is the vehicle itself and the other is a portable battery brick. Anker batteries are my best friends.

  12. #12

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    Digital. Garmin Pilot is my primary resource but I have other Ipad and iPhone map apps with downloaded topo maps for when I get to where I’m going. Foreflight on iPad offers the Alaska Supplement downloads in book form. Last I knew the iPhone version didn’t support that download (I let Foreflight go.) The primary advantage of digital for me is that my Garmin Pilot app automatically updates charts so I don’t have to think about it. My charts are always current, and when kept current they are not GPS/cell/wifi dependent. These devices and apps are amazing.
    Last edited by stewartb; 01-07-2018 at 10:01 AM.

  13. #13
    scout88305's Avatar
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    Let's not have technology eliminate sectionals I like to see the big picture. Kids these days don't even look at maps. When I ride with people they dink around with their car navigation screen to go like 200 miles in a straight line on an interstate. I just shake my head, mutter WTH under my breath and long for simpler times. Maps are cool but soon forgotten. Another victim of progress.
    Thank a sheepdog today for they are standing guard!
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  14. #14
    40m's Avatar
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    Even though I have an iPad and gps I still prefer paper (even if they're a little dated) a phone call over a text and a hand shake and smile over lol. Call me old fashioned.

    From Genesis: "And God promised men that good and obedient wives would be
    found in all corners of the earth."

    Then he made the earth round... and He laughed and laughed and laughed!

  15. #15
    sjohnson's Avatar
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    Electronics are primary for me, with a paper backup for local flying.

    On a recent trip from Idaho to Alaska, I found I would need roughly two dozen charts and several books - too unwieldy for a Cub cockpit. So, I went with 3 electronic devices: Garmin GPS in the panel, iPhone, and an iPad, with all charts and books downloaded ahead of time.

    BTW, XM weather works fine in Idaho, but was mostly useless in Canada and Alaska. I think the satellites were just too low on the horizon. I had to turn off the feature to stop the annoying loss of signal warnings. Perhaps repositioning the puck antenna would have helped, but not something I wanted to mess with during the trip. I'm curious if others have the same trouble.
    Democracy dies in conformity

  16. #16
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    I'm not a complete cave man. I'm rockin' a Magellan 315. It's a good back up to my free state aviation charts. I usually leave my flip phone in the car when I fly.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  17. #17
    Richgj3's Avatar
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    Paper. I always have current charts in the Cub.
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  18. #18
    Barnstormer's Avatar
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    I haven't had a paper chart since Foreflight came on the market. I'm a Garmin Pilot guy now as their VFR Map has better resolution then Foreflight, and Garmin's Smart Airspace is well....smarter. I do still have Foreflight for fuel prices in Canada and Hotel/Restaurant distance from airports and their contact info. But next time my Foreflight subscription is up for renewal I'll drop it.

    For you paper chart aficionados try and find my airport, 04AA, on the Anchorage sectional. It was approved on 9/26/2017 and shortly after in both Garmin Pilot's and Foreflight's database so shows up on all their maps, but still isn't on the Anchorage sectional almost four months later. Of course paper charts can be used to help start a fire, but that's the only use I see for them.

  19. #19
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeeBee View Post
    I just make sure I have at least two devices, with two power backups for those devices. One power source is the vehicle itself and the other is a portable battery brick. Anker batteries are my best friends.
    Much less stuff to keep organized on a back country trip than the three or four paper charts I might need.

    I will now pull out the ipad if I am traveling a long ways, (as in days), but will keep old charts with me. Much easier to open a chart to look 200 miles away and get the lay of the land than try to scroll in rough weather.

    One electronic and paper back up is a great thing- or paper primary with electronic back up!

    One consideration that should be discussed is how often do we even use a chart? I might pull my chart out once a week when flying full time, only to check something. Most of us I bet fly the same areas so don't need to look at the chart all the time.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  20. #20
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    Foreflight... Still like to use paper charts to check a route the night before but when flying in the 12 it is much easier to use the iPad.

  21. #21
    FdxLou's Avatar
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    Electronic with one exception....I always have one sectional available (doesn’t have to current) to keep the sun out of my eyes.

    Lou
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  22. #22
    nightflyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FdxLou View Post
    Electronic with one exception....I always have one sectional available (doesn’t have to current) to keep the sun out of my eyes.

    Lou
    x

    Kinda like the catering box lid from your FedEx days Lou?
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  23. #23

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    Good to hear of so many paper chart users. I like to keep it simple especially when I fly the J-3. Just earplugs and no electronics and the paper chart. We need to preserve fundamentals and show “the children of GPS” we can still fly some where without a TV in their face. My Super Cub has a Garmin 496 and the paper chart.
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  24. #24

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    I use my garmin 795, I do carry charts for whatever part of the country I am flying. Mostly because my wife like to follow with them as we fly. I have had to use them once when I lost power on a flight home from the Brooks Range.
    DENNY
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  25. #25
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Paper and plastic. Sort of memorized Alaska a few years ago but the non-terrain numbers change.

    Still have some Navy silk handkerchief charts my dad had during WWII flying PBY's in Melanesia - New Guinea, Solomon Islands, and New Hebrides now Vanatu. Easy to fold for a pocket and durable.

    Gary
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  26. #26
    OldCuby's Avatar
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    Used to subscribe to Duracharts until they went belly up. They have nice grade paper that's hard to tear. I've kept all of them that cover most areas I fly. My primary baby is an Aera 660. But Avare is installed on my Android phone and tablet. But I always keep an old Sectional handy, including a TAC while flying thru the Wash., DC SFRA.

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  27. #27

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    I use Avare 100% of the time. First used it on my droid phone and then later purchased a $129.00 (on sale) Samsung pad A at Costco. Use that on an old salvaged yoke mount for the bigger screen. All free and updated automatically by wifi at home. Even if the GPS system quits the pad still has the sectionals on it. Got it on wifes phone and the new pad a I got her for Christmas It eats batteries so I purchased a $60 Costco backup USB battery for longer flights. Generally have 4 devices running in the plane at a time so I don't worry about not having access to a sectional at any point.

    Pilots come in where I work and describe how excited they are with their Iphone/foreflight stuff and I have not heard of any real world advantage that it has over the free Avare? Most have no knowledge of Avare.

    I still carry out of date paper charts for some reason?
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  28. #28
    Bill.Brine's Avatar
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    Paper Charts

    ForeFlight on the iPhone, iPad and desktop.

    For many years reading paper charts was one the joys in my life. Lay them out on a table to study then flip and fold while flying. I may be crazy but I enjoyed it.
    Now I get a different joy by toggling between sectional view, satellite images and topo view while exploring on the desktop.



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  29. #29
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    Anyone observe anomalies related to the GPS outage/interference warnings that get published by faasafety.gov? They published 4 in Jan. so far. Might be another reason to keep an old chart handy.

  30. #30

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    If I put my iPad or iPhone into airplane mode (no GPS) I can still view my charts.

  31. #31
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnstormer View Post
    I haven't had a paper chart since Foreflight came on the market. I'm a Garmin Pilot guy now as their VFR Map has better resolution then Foreflight, and Garmin's Smart Airspace is well....smarter. I do still have Foreflight for fuel prices in Canada and Hotel/Restaurant distance from airports and their contact info. But next time my Foreflight subscription is up for renewal I'll drop it.

    For you paper chart aficionados try and find my airport, 04AA, on the Anchorage sectional. It was approved on 9/26/2017 and shortly after in both Garmin Pilot's and Foreflight's database so shows up on all their maps, but still isn't on the Anchorage sectional almost four months later. Of course paper charts can be used to help start a fire, but that's the only use I see for them.
    Phil, we can find you on a chart if you give us a Lat/Lon. One more plus for paper, try wiping your butt with a pad if you have an unexpected grumbling in your stomach.

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  32. #32
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    If I put my iPad or iPhone into airplane mode (no GPS) I can still view my charts.
    Stewart,
    Airplane mode does not shut off the internal GPS on iPhones and iPads.

    Pb


    Transmitted from my FlightPhone

  33. #33

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    Thanks for the correction. For this context it doesn't matter. Downloaded charts still show up without GPS coverage, you just won't have a moving map. Not unlike paper.

    And FWIW, I've never had GPS interruption during a NOTAM period for possible loss of coverage. I have had my GPS lose it's way before but never my iPhone or iPad.
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  34. #34
    Barnstormer's Avatar
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    And I've never seen my GPS position show up on paper charts, but maybe I'm unfolding them wrong.

    I have flown into an area in Southwest Texas a couple of times where GPS quit working, but so what, the maps/charts on Garmin Pilot & Foreflight still worked- no different then using paper except it's more up to date. Even though there still is that whole I can't wipe my butt with an iPad thing I think I'll stay with Garmin Pilot, heck I can't recall the last time I used a sectional for anything- digital or paper.

  35. #35
    nanook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    If I put my iPad or iPhone into airplane mode (no GPS) I can still view my charts.
    Biggest problem I have is keeping things working in the cold! The mini iPad last a tad bit longer than than the iPhone 6 but not much. You start using the things cold and suddenly there is no battery left...Not something that I would use for backup. We are also having to deal with multiple GPS outages from the military during their never ending maneuvers.

  36. #36
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill.Brine View Post
    For many years reading paper charts was one the joys in my life. Lay them out on a table to study then flip and fold while flying. I may be crazy but I enjoyed it.
    Me too. In my previous home I wallpapered the living room with Canadian sectional charts. I was able to get most of Canada except for the most northern islands on the wall. It was fun looking for potential fishing holes and looking at the places I had visited while the snow was flying outside.
    N1PA
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  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnstormer View Post
    Of course paper charts can be used to help start a fire, but that's the only use I see for them.
    Some phones/tablets can too but FAA did not like them in planes.
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  38. #38

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    The way you keep them working in the cold is either plug them into airplane power or use a backup battery. I have used Anker batteries for years. They will back up a tablet longer than you want to fly, way longer. As for GPS, that does not stop the chart function from working. You still have a chart just as you would if you were using paper. As for fire, I have had a Microsoft Surface overheat, but never an iPad. Every iPad fire that I have seen has come from an aftermarket charging cable or non regulated charging unit.

  39. #39

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    I keep my phone in my shirt pocket or in a zipped pocket in polar fleece under a shell if I’ll be in the cold all day. If you want to improve on typical charts for someplace you’re going the iPad/iPhone can also use topo maps or satellite views in apps like Gaia GPS that allow you to download the view you prefer for away from cell range use. With a newer iPad you can run a pilot app and a topo map app at the same time on a split screen. See your location on a standard FAA chart and a google earth view simultaneously. Can’t do that with paper. Even if you prefer paper its hard to deny the utility of these apps and devices.
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  40. #40
    40m's Avatar
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    Again, I have embraced the available technology and like most agree a little redundancy is necessary or at least comforting.
    New Years day was spent with seven other pilots in our north country, temps started out in the negative teens and hovered around zero all day. Clearly I didn't manage my electronic devices well, after several hours on the lake not one of the three, iPhone 6, iPad or panel mounted GPS would come up upon my departure. After 10-15 minutes after start-up GPS came alive, phone only after plugging it into the truck charger on the drive home, iPad was just left alone until I returned home. I now know what I should have done and will in the future but like an American Express card I won't leave home without a sectional.
    Last edited by 40m; 01-08-2018 at 09:34 AM.

    From Genesis: "And God promised men that good and obedient wives would be
    found in all corners of the earth."

    Then he made the earth round... and He laughed and laughed and laughed!
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