Experimental ignitions systems choice

Now that I've sold the good old trusty white floatplane, I want to upgrade the Red Devil.


I'm looking to upgrade my standard old magnetos to an electronic ignition system. There are a few on the market. I was thinking that the E-Mags were the way to go. After reading here, on Vans forum and others, I realized the choice was more complicated...

Have a stock O-360 C4P, 8amp alternator, small skytech starter, EarthX battery
Looking for reliability, low cost maintenance , fuel economy and horse power if possible.....

I'm now hesitating between 3 that looks to be an option:
price from low to high I think


Any feedback and/or advice on those products??





http://www.flyefii.com/products/ignition-systems/














http://sdsefi.com/cpi.htm

new version coming soon















http://www.emagair.com/

Although not installed yet, I bought the E-Mags for my 2+2. Looking at the pictures you posted tells the story; simplicity. The EMag seems to be a pretty simple install; less parts means less things to fail. There are a number of guys here who have the Emags and they can attest to the operational side of things.
Marty

I have been very pleased with the Pmags. Easy to time (incredibly easy to time). I have ops checked the ability to run with a dead battery and no alternator, and it works just fine. Simple, light, easy to install, etc. Excellent support and reasonably priced when you do need service. I have a carburated 0-360 and with the pmags I am able to run lean of peak. Typical burn is around 7.2 GPH at 2400 RPM sea level std day. I have the auto plug option which saves HUGE bucks.
Highly recommend.
More info here on how they work, CHT's, Timing them etc

http://www.supercub.org/forum/showt...g-a-Javron-Cub&p=632017&viewfull=1#post632017


Hope this helps

Bill

It would be interesting to know why your friends are not happy with the EFII system. I did a lot of reading on the Van's site when I was deciding which to buy and noticed a significant number of people selling their Pmags to switch to EFII. I found more talk of problems with the Pmags than other systems, maybe that is because there are more out there I don't know. I put in the dual system with the buss manager and it is more complex to install than the Pmags if you are not installing them during the intitial build. The dual system needs a second battery. Not a big deal using a smaller EarthX for the second battery. Two EarthX are lighter than what I had before. The Pmags need to be sent in for work every so many hours. EFII gets you away from a failure prone mechanical ignition into a totally electronic system with no moving parts, unless you call three tiny magnets set into the flywheel moving parts. The basic system isn't some new invention it is what is used in thousands of automobiles and has been for many years. How many have left their car beside the road and walked home because the electronic ignition failed. Not many I don't think. Besides if you want to go with a really good fuel injection system later he makes that as well. I have had no problems at all with mine so far with about 300 hours on it. I recommend studying all the systems thoroughly before deciding. I would put it in again if I were building another airplane. Only down side is you can't prop your cub with this system. But then you don't need to as you have two batteries and you can start from either one or both. If your starter fails you'll need a tow. ;-)

Sorry, Gerald. Not my story to tell. I’m out.

Pmags. They work great, auto plugs are cheap and Brad the owner is awesome to work with when you have a question. Hands down.

P-mags because of their self generating capabilities. If on the remote chance you have a total electrical failure the P-mags will get you home. I do not believe any of the others have this advantage.

I have over 1800 hrs on my dual P Mags. Sent them in for OH at 1200 hrs (should have sent them in about 800 hrs). Very inexpensive to replace the shaft bearings. My fuel burn is crazy low. 5.9-6.5 gph at 2200 and 6.9-7.3 gph at 2360 rpm.
They pay for themselves in a few years. I, like Bill Rusk, run my O-360-C4P LOP with NGK BR8-eix auto plugs.

Lou

What is the recommended overhaul time/cost on the P mags? The only problem I see with the all electronic stuff (other then battery issue) is you can have issues caused by other electrical components. Ford 7.3 diesel engines had some issues with the cam position sensor signal interference from bad ground on windshield wiper motor. Rumor has the hotrod 409 engine had issues with unexplained stoppage. I would wonder if a bad antenna ground or other radio/ transponder could cause issues, or if shielding all the external lines would help. Maybe some of the electron guys could answer that question.
DENNY

DENNY said:

What is the recommended overhaul time/cost on the P mags?
DENNY

Click to expand...

That is a real good question



I didn't knew about a second battery for the non P-Mags kits, but makes sense. I do have another very small EarthX battery I'm not using, but I not sure about having two battery in my plane.


I also wonder why a few RV guys are switching from P-Mags to coil system. Will have to dig deeper to find some answers....

The cost is $135 each for a “flat fee check up”. This covers firmware/software updates and any other parts and labor needed to overhaul/update your unit.
Brad Dement(owner) told me that he likes to see them every 500-800 hrs. I remove mine at annual to check the shaft bearings for wobble. They are very easy to time.

Lou

PMags for me. Have about 700 hours on them, but sent them in at 600 to be inspected. Auto iridium wide gap plugs. LOP is possible and smooth. O375. I also wired two toggle switches so I can test the PMag built in alternators. If my EarthX was to die I’d need at least a 9 volt transistor battery to hand prop. But I carry an EarthX Jump Pack so don’t need to wire in a 9 volt.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Last week I was catching up with a guy who had significant burns over his body and a few finger ends burnt off.

His story was he and one other were airborne on climb after takeoff about 1,000ft in a Glass-air or star (one of those slickish a/c) when he was over a city and the engine failed. The 'landing' was under power lines, onto an oval. But there was a tall and unseen football pole on the boundary edge that that cut the wing off and caused a firey explosion.

Point of the story, it's believed that an alternator belt on the engine failed and in doing so smacked the crank angle sensor removing that signal. Causing the ignition system to stop and therefore the engine failure.

There maybe lots of different systems and ones that solve this issue, but having seen the burns on this guy, it's something to consider.

Good news he's still flying and currently renovating his RV8.

I've worked on both the EFII and Pmag systems. I only have about 150 hrs on the Pmags. I love them, but they do have their weaknesses. I had a failure at 60 hrs that was a failed edge connector on the internal board, which caused me to loose 2 cylinders on one Pmag. 100 hours later I had a second failure that was a product of them fixing the first failure. They failed to torque the internal screws when they re-assembled the Pmag, so the head quite literally came off in flight. However, I really do believe the failures were an anomaly, and had the first 9one not happened there surely wouldn't have been the second. Brad repaired the Pmag free of charge both times, and took the second one back for a free inspection and firmware upgrade when I sent the first back in for a second repair.

I helped a friend with an RV-8 install his EFII system. The default timing curve for ignition advance is much more conservative than the Emag timing curve, so it is possible that the fuel burn may not be quite as good. He also had a lot of problems with ignition noise bleeding over into the radio. He spent a lot of time building shielding, but ultimately found the last offender was the use of spark plugs with screw on terminal. Once he changed to plugs with a fixed terminal the noise issue was finally resolved. In his RV, rather than adding a second battery to the system, we added an 8 amp B&C Dynamo alternator as a backup alternator. That way if he had an alternator failure he was not limited by battery life. An alternator failure was only an inconvenience to fix when he got home. That happened this past summer when his alternator failed on a trip to the midwest. He toggled over to the backup alternator and minimized his electrical load for the duration of the trip, which was about another 2000 miles after the primary alternator failed.

FWIW, I think both systems are good. Withthe use of a backup alternator, you don't put yourself in the position of being limited by battery range in the case of an alternator failure, which then makes the EFII the superior system. Without the backup alternator, I'd rather live the the periodic maintenance required for the Pmags.

-Cub Builder

Great article in May 2017 issue of Kitplanes by Nigel Speedy (trained test pilot). He tested the effects of variable timing on fuel consumption in his RV-8.

Bottom line the extra timing advance doesn't help lower fuel consumption unless you run LOP.

Optimum timing for ROP operation was 25-28 degrees BTDC. More than that just raised CHTs.

The spark being hotter than a typical mag may still help...he didn't test that as he already had dual Pmags installed.

I'm used to running LOP with fuel injection but the carbureted O-360 in the mission cub will not run LOP even using carb heat. #1 cylinder runs leaner than the rest for some reason. More power to Bill and Lou and whoever else can run LOP...that's great, and the way to get the most out of your Pmags.

I just had a failure that affected cylinders 3 and 4 on the left mag. Turned out to be the external wire harness between the mag body and coil/distribution end had chafed on something. The failure came on gradually over 30 min. The engine still ran good on the other mag.

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Oops forgot to say..Dual Pmags on an O-360. 9.5/1 and auto plugs.
I'm getting radio noise too. Gonna change my auto plugs to fixed terminal style...Thanks Cub Builder

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I think a second Alternator is a good idea as well. I considered that but choose to go with dual batteries. Best would be both and not hard to do as the Buss Manager is designed to manage two batteries and two alternators or either combination. Just seems to me that if you have an alternator failure you can have power from two batteries to get some place but if you have two alternators and one battery and something in that battery system fails you have a difficult situation. If you choose to install the controller with the EFII system you can actually change a bunch of parameters in the system it is very flexible. You can also change the timing in the air. Not something you want to do all the time but getting things setup best for your engine you can see the results immediately, pretty cool. I run lean of peak most of the time at about 6.2 gph. O-340 with the same plugs Lou uses.

Looking for:
reliability
low cost maintenance
fuel economy
horse power

Lotsa stories about failures and complexity.. we have heard a few.

Backup batteries
9 v in emergency
buss manager
redundant alternators
lotsa new stuff to know (and understand).. in case of emergency.
have you watched anyone start and check a EFII system? wow

Personally I would up the compression, polish the innards and call it good.
They are old technology but mags with two toggles are pretty self explanatory
even when things get dicey! This doesn't do much toward improving your fuel burn
but hits most of the goals.

Just one (old) guys opinion.. :lol:

frank

I'll agree with Frank that magnetos are about as simple and reliable as anything IF properly maintained and tuned. However the 0-360 has the characteristics of shaking on start up and more so on shut down. When on floats it is necessary to plan ahead in order to have it stopped when you wish. With the variable timing of a P-mag this characteristic disappears. The engine idles smoothly and will shut down smoothly from an idle just by pulling the mixture. After operating 0-360s and I0-360s with magnetos for years I've found the variable timing of the P-mags to be a treat. In flight when leaning by ear and feeling for the lean roughness, the roughness just isn't there. At least on my I0-360 this is so. The engine just gradually slows down as the mixture gets too lean. The EGTs, CHTs and rpm just get lower and lower until you wonder why it is still running. It won't do this with magnetos.

Fuel consumption: An 0-360 at 24" 2400 rpm burns a good solid 10 gallons per hour. An I0-360 will do better due to the fuel injection and even better if the nozzles are balanced. I can't say that the electronic ignition is an advantage or not in the fuel burn discussion. I run mine at 21.5" 2400 rpm rich of peak at 8 gph. Lean of peak slows the airplane. I don't like slow.

In a no electrics airplane there would be a small weight penalty to install a small EarthX battery for hand starting and idle operations. As I understand it the other electronic ignition systems would require a generator of some type in order to function.

Little_Cub said:

Looking for:
reliability
low cost maintenance
fuel economy
horse power

Lotsa stories about failures and complexity.. we have heard a few.

Backup batteries
9 v in emergency
buss manager
redundant alternators
lotsa new stuff to know (and understand).. in case of emergency.
have you watched anyone start and check a EFII system? wow

Personally I would up the compression, polish the innards and call it good.
They are old technology but mags with two toggles are pretty self explanatory
even when things get dicey! This doesn't do much toward improving your fuel burn
but hits most of the goals.

Just one (old) guys opinion.. :lol:

frank

Click to expand...

But then you don't get to hear Lou talking on the radio about his power setting, fuel burn etc. 8)

skywagon8a said:

I'll agree with Frank that magnetos are about as simple and reliable as anything IF properly maintained and tuned. However the 0-360 has the characteristics of shaking on start up and more so on shut down. When on floats it is necessary to plan ahead in order to have it stopped when you wish. With the variable timing of a P-mag this characteristic disappears. The engine idles smoothly and will shut down smoothly from an idle just by pulling the mixture. After operating 0-360s and I0-360s with magnetos for years I've found the variable timing of the P-mags to be a treat. In flight when leaning by ear and feeling for the lean roughness, the roughness just isn't there. At least on my I0-360 this is so. The engine just gradually slows down as the mixture gets too lean. The EGTs, CHTs and rpm just get lower and lower until you wonder why it is still running. It won't do this with magnetos.

Fuel consumption: An 0-360 at 24" 2400 rpm burns a good solid 10 gallons per hour. An I0-360 will do better due to the fuel injection and even better if the nozzles are balanced. I can't say that the electronic ignition is an advantage or not in the fuel burn discussion. I run mine at 21.5" 2400 rpm rich of peak at 8 gph. Lean of peak slows the airplane. I don't like slow.

In a no electrics airplane there would be a small weight penalty to install a small EarthX battery for hand starting and idle operations. As I understand it the other electronic ignition systems would require a generator of some type in order to function.

Click to expand...

If you don't like slow just add manifold pressure back.
Example: Set up cruise ROP @ 60%, go LOP and it will slow down, then adjust power till you get back to your previous indicated airspeed. It should still be 60% power.

There are published guidelines on how much you need to be lean of peak to run more than 65% power.

Assuming proper cooling at ROP settings. My rule of thumb is that if I'm below 60% power LOP I can't hurt anything even by running peak EGT.

https://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182544-1.html

https://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182084-1.html

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I’ve got about 750 hours with the Lightspeed system. They’ve been trouble-free. It was recommended that the leads from the coils to the plugs be replaced after 500 hours. I went longer than that and developed a miss that went away with new leads.

Amp draw varies with rpm but falls between 3-5 amps.

Fuel burn is amazingly low.

Any electronic system is way ahead of mags. Mags are lawnmower technology.

spinner2 said:

Any electronic system is way ahead of mags. Mags are lawnmower technology.

Click to expand...

Until you have experienced an electronic system I don't think you can understand how much better the engine performs. Yes they still run fine with with the spinning magnet like they have for 75 years but the smoothness, fast starting, incredibly slow smooth idle, ability to run well with low fuel burn, will make you a believer. I think like spinner any of these new systems are way ahead of the very old technology we know and tend to be more comfortable with.

It would be nice to have new technology, but just this morning, Merry Christmas by the way, I got out to my bird to come home from a couple days at the cabin. I had the heat on it all night, so the engine was above freezing- compared to below zero outside.

Got the plane uncovered, packed up, dogs in, (I had both dogs with me), and no clicks when I turned on the master. To make it worse, no power anywhere.

my options now were to hand prop her, take the battery out and to the cabin to try to charge, or carry the 100 lb gen set from the cabin a mile or so to the plane.

I know all you guys think it is not a big deal to just pull the battery and carry it to the cabin, but, I don't think I have a charger there now, so I would be doing something strange to charge it. Remember, we have very little day light to get anything done.

If I were out in the brush camping, same issue comes about- unless I carried a gen set and charger.

I really like being able to hand prop my plane. One blade and she was started and running; that is an O-540 by the way.

Each of us choose what our primary goal and needs are. Good thing we have lots of options today.

You are right akt there are things the old technology does very well and we are pretty used to ways to solve some of the weak points of it. However, this https://earthxbatteries.com/shop/earthx-jump-pack would solve the problem you had very well. This one is not at all the same as you buy at the autoparts store. Charge this up throw it in the back and when you need it a year or 2 later it will still start your 540 even in the super cold. If you can find it back there. :-? I use that technology in my large RC model receivers and the self drain is virtually nil.

aktango58 said:

It would be nice to have new technology, but just this morning, Merry Christmas by the way, I got out to my bird to come home from a couple days at the cabin. I had the heat on it all night, so the engine was above freezing- compared to below zero outside.

Got the plane uncovered, packed up, dogs in, (I had both dogs with me), and no clicks when I turned on the master. To make it worse, no power anywhere.

my options now were to hand prop her, take the battery out and to the cabin to try to charge, or carry the 100 lb gen set from the cabin a mile or so to the plane.

I know all you guys think it is not a big deal to just pull the battery and carry it to the cabin, but, I don't think I have a charger there now, so I would be doing something strange to charge it. Remember, we have very little day light to get anything done.

If I were out in the brush camping, same issue comes about- unless I carried a gen set and charger.

I really like being able to hand prop my plane. One blade and she was started and running; that is an O-540 by the way.

Each of us choose what our primary goal and needs are. Good thing we have lots of options today.

Click to expand...

George I had the very same thing happen to me a year ago after spending a night in a cabin in sub zero temps. The engine was warm with a Honda 1000 running and a good cowl blanket. But the battery wasn’t up to the task. I pulled the battery and put it near the wood stove. After maybe two hours I put it back in the plane and it fired up.

My my solution was to get a battery heater from NAPA and plug it into the Honda also. I gave it a good test last Saturday with more below zero flying weather. No problems this time.



If you look close you can see a black cord coming out of the front edge of the lower door. The battery is under the front seat.

Both you two offer great solutions. The battery heater is a great idea, but will not bring it from dead I don't think. The earthx looks like something I should have in each car and the plane.

Dan, what all do you have heating your plane with a Honda 1000? Using a square ceramic type heater I about use all the 1000 I have. But it heats the engine well and quick when home.

Great ideas, thanks.

aktango58 said:

Both you two offer great solutions. The battery heater is a great idea, but will not bring it from dead I don't think. The earthx looks like something I should have in each car and the plane.

Dan, what all do you have heating your plane with a Honda 1000? Using a square ceramic type heater I about use all the 1000 I have. But it heats the engine well and quick when home.

Great ideas, thanks.

Click to expand...

George, I have Reiff cylinder bands and a sump pad. The battery heater is just 60 Watts. Total load is 600 Watts or so if I’m remembering correctly.

An airplane without mags is like a Harley without a kick starter.
Girly toys. :lol:

Glenn

A typical “dead” starting battery has plenty of juice available to energize any of these electronic ignitions. Whether it has the juice to push a high pressure fuel pump for fuel injection is a bigger question. Carrying a Jump Pack is a simple solution. I already carry one in my day pack. Some of my electric start toys don’t have a manual start option (it wouldn’t matter since they all use electronic fuel injection and require a pressurized fuel bar to start) and the Jump Pack is small and light. Welcome to the 21st century.