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Thread: Tips for Keeping Passenger Warm...Without Roasting in the Front Seat?

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    WindOnHisNose's Avatar
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    Tips for Keeping Passenger Warm...Without Roasting in the Front Seat?

    I have the Atlee rear heat mod, and it works well but doesn't keep Julie warm enough in the back seat. Airleaks are dealt with using green Frog masking tape (no residue), but it really is uncomfortably cold back there sometimes. We are getting Santa's Super Cub ready for his annual flights, and I would like to make this better for her.

    We have tried sleeping bags, but they are too bulky. Blankets are difficult to arrange around the passenger.

    Ideas/tips?

    Randy

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    Teach her to fly and you sit in back?

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    Solution: Purchase a Carbon Cub FX3.

    Check out the new blog!

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    Come back to Oklahoma and swipe Eaton’s extension/diffuser for the main heater outlet, it will keep your feet from roasting while sending more heat back to your favorite Elf.
    Last edited by OLDCROWE; 12-05-2017 at 08:50 PM.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!
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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    I mentioned this before somewhere...install a curtain behind and under the rear seat floor to ceiling and side to side. Can be fabric compatible with the plane and tied in like a baggage covering. Cover the open area in the rear of the fuselage near the tail spring if it's been left uncovered. Put flexible fabric with a slit over the elevator trim slots in the fuselage. Cold comes from behind.

    Also make sure any holes around the landing gear and boot cowl are covered. Install weather-strip around the door and upper window. Close any holes at the forward wing root fairing leading into the wing. Heat leaks out there from the rear of the cockpit.

    Electric 12V vests and other garments for motorcycle or snowmachine riding are available and do work. https://www.revzilla.com/heated-motorcycle-gear

    Gary
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 12-05-2017 at 11:04 PM.

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    gntw's Avatar
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    Heated seat

    Quote Originally Posted by OLDCROWE View Post
    Come back to Oklahoma and swipe Eaton’s extension/diffuser for the main heater outlet, it will keep you from roasting while sending more heat back to your favorite Elf.
    I made a heated seat with control panel out of 2 gm heating elements and rear heat hose control box. Works good in my cub. Flown at -30f
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    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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    I really like Milwaukee M12 heated jackets. Made for construction work the carbon fiber tech in it makes it work better than anything I have experienced. My wife wears it and I don't roast.
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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    make a VENT that will DRAW airflow to back seat.... sealing things up is not always useful...

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    Kim is cold when it isn't cold, let alone when it is. Her trick is to put warmer packs in her boots and gloves. Never a problem once she does that. It's a cheaper/easier fix than revising your airplane.

    If she's cold and you're roasting it should be simple enough to divert some of your hot air to the back. A temporary scat like in Glenn's picture works well if your heater-defroster box has an outlet for it.
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    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post


    Glenn
    This is a great solution, and very simple. There are many ways to collect the heat into the scat hose depending on what you have up front.

    For heating the pilot, a small hole in the top of the scat will allow some warm air to escape and keep you warm.

    A heated pair of pants and vest sold for motorcycle riding might be a quick and easy solution, also can be used for snowmachines, biking and lots of other uses.

    Another solution would be to bring me the cub, get a PA-12 with a wide back seat, sit with her and keep her warm through body contact...

    One positive of a heated suit would be her ability to control temperature to suit her.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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    aktango58's Avatar
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    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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    My wife just received some Baffin extreme cold weather boots for her birthday, we have not flown in them yet but she said they are the warmest boots she has ever tried on. The hard part is proper dress for cold weather flying, means shedding layers if you go inside. If you are doing lots of stops and going inside, people tend not to dress warm enough. Smartwool base layer bottom and top Followed by warmest pants she can find. Layer the top, wool sweater, wool vest, with Down hooded coat and scarf. Mittens with hand/feet warmer. She can remove as needed at stops. My heat system is kind of different. Rear seat heat system is dedicated to defrost only. The normal front/defrost is fed to scat tube for rear seat. I am usually warm/hot if anything and I wear bunny boots in winter so feet are always warm. Having the extended scat tube shown above is nice because you can stick it in your jacket or to any cold spot.
    DENNY
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    Down filled bib overalls and bunny boots.
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    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    How much you want to spend Randy? A warm wife is a happy wife, most times





    Glenn
    Last edited by cubdriver2; 12-05-2017 at 10:47 PM.
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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    I got really cold on a winter trip to Yakima - I found that, once in, a piece of cardboard and a lambs wool fleece between my legs and the side panels/door worked wonders.

    The back seat of a tandem can get deadly cold. A special heater plenum is the plan, but I would do the lambs wool trick back there too.

    Here in SoCal we rarely even hook up the heaters. It is against the local code to fly with the door closed.
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    mvivion's Avatar
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    Randy,

    If you haven’t already, block off the area just behind the aft stick, under the seat. Temporary, put a piece of solid fabric/Naugahyde, slide the top under the seat bottom cushion to keep in place, then tape the bottom and sides off to block off any air coming under the seat. You’d be surprised how much cold air flows forward from the tail, and enters the cockpit through that gap under the back seat.

    MTV
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    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Here in SoCal we rarely even hook up the heaters.
    Now Bob, somewhere I have pics of snow on the ground in La Mesa - -
    Gordon

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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    The fix...have the pilot ride in the rear of a Cub on a brisk winter day. Note their attention to detail regarding frozen breath and which way it flows. Have them feel about for leaks and become quite motivated to fix same. Holding a hot cup of steaming tea in hand can show the cold flow too.

    Also there's a serious note here. Carbon monoxide from exhaust is quite capable of entering the tail and moving forward with the cold air. Put a detector near the back seat and another visible from the front.

    Gary
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post


    Glenn
    The backseaters that hang out with me would more than likely mistake that for a relief tube.....on purpose while taxing back to the hangar leaving you with the fresh scent of piss-potpourri shortly after the next start up
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    aktango58's Avatar
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    Lyn always used the engine cover as a blanket, it helped.

    Keeping warm is a combination of stopping cold air from cycling in, and retaining the heat you have. One very important piece is to keep the head warm- may I suggest Sea Otter: Sea Fur Sewing in Sitka will fix her up.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    make a VENT that will DRAW airflow to back seat.... sealing things up is not always useful...
    Mike you’re onto a good point, I had Pierce put snap vents in the D windows to help exhaust hot air in the summer which they do really well with both front vents and the boot cowl vent open but in the winter I still use them turned aft (open) with the heater on as necessary and the boot cowl vent open a tad they help pull warm air to the back.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

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    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WindOnHisNose View Post
    I have the Atlee rear heat mod, and it works well but doesn't keep Julie warm enough in the back seat. Airleaks are dealt with using green Frog masking tape (no residue), but it really is uncomfortably cold back there sometimes. We are getting Santa's Super Cub ready for his annual flights, and I would like to make this better for her.

    We have tried sleeping bags, but they are too bulky. Blankets are difficult to arrange around the passenger.

    Ideas/tips?

    Randy
    Sell your pa-18 and buy a PA-12. You can hire a pilot to fly you around in the winter while you keep her warm....

    Otherwise.... I have found the heated seat kits made for a car to work excellent.

    Tim
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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OLDCROWE View Post
    Mike you’re onto a good point, I had Pierce put snap vents in the D windows to help exhaust hot air in the summer which they do really well with both front vents and the boot cowl vent open but in the winter I still use them turned aft (open) with the heater on as necessary and the boot cowl vent open a tad they help pull warm air to the back.
    When I flew two Airedales in my -18A they took to deep breathing in the cold. I finally put those snap vents in the rear windows to clear the dog breath and steam and it did help. They liked the idea plus sitting on the engine cover over a flat A-model floor.

    Gary
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    Quote Originally Posted by OLDCROWE View Post
    Mike you’re onto a good point, I had Pierce put snap vents in the D windows to help exhaust hot air in the summer which they do really well with both front vents and the boot cowl vent open but in the winter I still use them turned aft (open) with the heater on as necessary and the boot cowl vent open a tad they help pull warm air to the back.
    It works in a Skywagon, too. Soros makes cabin air outlet vents to allow airflow. It works to allow cool or warm air into a small cabin. Kinda like opening an upstairs window to help the wood stove heat a cold cabin when you first get there. Airflow works. Crash used to tell guys to add a high vent in their engine covers to allow their combustion heaters to have airflow. Same same.

    http://www.planeplastics.com/accesso...nhancement-kit
    Last edited by stewartb; 12-05-2017 at 11:36 PM.
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  26. #26
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    That can move heat (convective transfer), but it surely also discards some of the heat energy that was supplied by the source. The net heat gain in the enclosure is necessarily reduced.
    Gordon

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    You aren't baking a cake!

    If there's no outflow you can't introduce inflow very well. It may not be intuitive but heat up a -30* cabin for 25 years or so and you learn a few tricks. Allowing the cold air to exit is one of them.
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  28. #28
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Allowing the cold air to exit is one of them.
    That permits some quick transport of heat to upstairs in a cold-soaked building, but steady-state, the net heat flow into the enclosure is reduced and the downstairs is colder.

    Sorry Stewart, but no neophyte here. I heated my leaky old two-story home exclusively with wood for quite a few years. 20+ cords per year. Once I got the infiltration reduced in the rehab process, I used a LOT less wood. Like half. And it was a LOT more comfortable as well, both upstairs and down.
    Gordon

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    Because you relied on radiant heat from the mass of the structure. Different conditions than a Cub cabin.
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  30. #30
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Nope. Heat in minus heat out equals heat gained. Now, in a drafty Cub cabin, I agree that doesn't really apply. There, it becomes a matter of directing the heat in toward specifically where it's most wanted, cuz it ain't gonna accumulate!
    Gordon

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    Gordon, what we’re talking about in the cub (and mine seals up really well...once again thanks Steve!) is getting heat to the back passenger before the I’m done, time to make gravy button pops out on the pilot! Or are you figuring the pilot as a major part of the thermal mass to warm the passenger. Also with the heat on and the boot cowl vent a little open and the pop vents exhausting it really helps keep warm the pilots upper body as well, especially as I said before with a diverter or extender on the main heater outlet so you don’t have to put foil over your feet like a thanksgiving turkey.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!
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  32. #32
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Just saw this: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

    Sorry, I can not transfer the picture, but it would be very warm!
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  33. #33
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    You can't " push " heat, remove the colder denser air and the heat will follow. Many in upstate NY lived it in old farm houses and froze. Add a few cold air returns from the remote rooms and every room had heat

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  34. #34
    40m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinJ View Post
    The backseaters that hang out with me would more than likely mistake that for a relief tube.....on purpose while taxing back to the hangar leaving you with the fresh scent of piss-potpourri shortly after the next start up
    I was thinking that might be a little small for some of Glenn friends then I remember we're talking about cold.
    Last edited by 40m; 12-06-2017 at 06:36 PM.

    From Genesis: "And God promised men that good and obedient wives would be
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    PerryB's Avatar
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    Heating a building involves warming/recirculating a relatively static mass of air. In the case of a Cub you are constantly importing fresh air (albeit hot) and I would think some form of exhaust would be required for best effect.
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !
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  36. #36
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Air leaks _into_ the cabin must be addressed. If you want to have an cold air exit/return, send it out the back.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Plastic diverter/valve has been replaced with aluminum. (Plastic good when open, deformed from heat when closed)

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Heater Hose replaced with Scat tube, runs under seat to outlet facing rear-seater. Photos are pre-underseat-battery install, but still has room with battery installed.

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  37. #37
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    Air leaks _into_ the cabin must be addressed. If you want to have an cold air exit/return, send it out the back.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Plastic diverter/valve has been replaced with aluminum. (Plastic good when open, deformed from heat when closed)

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Heater Hose replaced with Scat tube, runs under seat to outlet facing rear-seater. Photos are pre-underseat-battery install, but still has room with battery installed.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    You have wa.......y too much free time on your hands

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  38. #38
    SJ's Avatar
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    It's an expensive heater, but....

    http://cubcrafters.com/c/2017/12/car...eating-system/
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------

  39. #39
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    You have wa.......y too much free time on your hands

    Glenn
    Actually, It's all about getting the wife into the airplane. Less whining from the backseat than from the house.

  40. #40
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post

    Does it really have heat at zero F ? 164% increase from a Carbon Cub at 2100RPM is still a cold airplane. Joe has trouble formulating words the first couple minutes after flying for an hour along side the rest of us.

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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