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Thread: Help! Need runway advise.

  1. #1
    Cub Special Ed's Avatar
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    Help! Need runway advise.

    My dad purchased a hanger in the early 90's out in the country in South Dakota. It had a charted private grass strip that they told the perspective buyer at auction would be available for them as long as the hanger was there. They just farmed the runway under, stranding my dad's and his client's aircrafts. Any advice or attourney recomendations would be appreciated. It was a verbal agreement at auction and there was absolutly no notice of removing it. Thanks for the help.
    "There are 3 kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves." Will Rogers

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    If I were in your father's position, without time and money to allocate to litigation and what it will surely take out him, I'd walk away from it. We live in times of "If it isn't written, it didn't happen."
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  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub Special Ed View Post
    My dad purchased a hanger in the early 90's out in the country in South Dakota. It had a charted private grass strip that they told the perspective buyer at auction would be available for them as long as the hanger was there. They just farmed the runway under, stranding my dad's and his client's aircrafts. Any advice or attourney recomendations would be appreciated. It was a verbal agreement at auction and there was absolutly no notice of removing it. Thanks for the help.
    Is there a deeded right of way? If it isn’t on the deed, it doesn’t exist.


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    cruiser's Avatar
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    Adverse possession? Find a good real estate lawyer and make an inquiry.

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    Cub Special Ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruiser View Post
    Adverse possession? Find a good real estate lawyer and make an inquiry.
    That was thoughts also.
    "There are 3 kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves." Will Rogers

  6. #6

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    Is there a deed to the hanger?
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!
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    Cub Special Ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OLDCROWE View Post
    Is there a deed to the hanger?
    Yes, my dad owns hanger and the acre or two its sitting on.
    "There are 3 kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves." Will Rogers

  8. #8
    S2D's Avatar
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    Turn the hangar into a party place and rent it out to the biggest druggies and lowlife in the country. The neighbor will soon tire of getting his stuff stolen all the time.
    Or offer it up as free living space for somalian refugees or whoever else needs a place to stay
    Never mind, its not worth it !!!
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  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub Special Ed View Post
    Yes, my dad owns hanger and the acre or two its sitting on.
    Might take a look to see if that says anything about runway access.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!
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  10. #10
    Cub Special Ed's Avatar
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    Oldcrowe, the runway was a verbal agreement. My dad groomed it and took care of it since he bought it. S2d, lots of the refugees in abr now so that may work.
    Last edited by Cub Special Ed; 11-29-2017 at 08:42 PM. Reason: Misspell
    "There are 3 kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves." Will Rogers

  11. #11

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    First rule of real estate law. There are no verbal agreements. Seriously, it is black letter law. No such thing as a verbal agreement in real estate.

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    AdirondackCub's Avatar
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    Seems 2 against one would favor your dad. Further, who watched you dad take care of this strip all these years? How many know the story and can attest to it? Combined with deed on hanger, could be a winner but at a price for sure.


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    I’d like to hear the rest (other side) of the story.

    I would like to hear why a neighbor of 27 years would just go out and plow under a runway with no notice.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub Special Ed View Post
    Oldcrowe, the runway was a verbal agreement. My dad groomed it and took care of it since he bought it. S2d, lots of the refugees in abr now so that may work.
    You never know what might have been jotted down on a deed unless you verify it, when you hire an attorney if you already have it in hand they won’t have to look it up while on the clock.

    A quick google says that the statute for adverse possession in SD requires proof of 20 years of open activity which your dad’s maintenance may have met, don’t know. I’m not a lawyer but I have been through this in Oklahoma when aquiring road right of way and a claimant wanted to be paid so he filed a suit and the court ultimately found that just mowing his neighbors property was not considered improvements, find any documentation you can like photos, wind sock purchases, fencing repairs, etc.

    I’m thinking that if there was no warning or hey you need to lease this then the plowing was likely a tactical defense of such a claim, is this corn ground and what did this take up 3 or 4 acres there is value....If you want to fight, you need to arm your dad with the proper weapons in the form of a good attorney, witness, plus documentation, proof that aviation is a valid land use (the statute references agg or other productive use of the land) and then be prepared for the consequences of legal fees, court costs etc.

    At least get a paid case consult.

    http://statelaws.findlaw.com/south-d...sion-laws.html
    Last edited by OLDCROWE; 11-30-2017 at 09:01 AM.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

  15. #15
    Cub Special Ed's Avatar
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    Thanks folks
    "There are 3 kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves." Will Rogers
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  16. #16

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    A lot cheaper to pay annually for the 3 or 4 acres of corn production margin to the farmer than litigating an adverse possession suit unless it is a slam dunk which in this case looks like it is not. You could probably do that for 20 years to equal the cost of litigation.
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  17. #17

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    Look up South Dakota Law on prescriptive easements. Easier to prove than adverse possession. Adverse possession is a legal transfer of title whereas prescriptive easements are the recognition of a legal right to use the property of another—just like an express written grant of an easement. One generally must prove continuous uninterrupted use. Sounds like the owner is laying the groundwork for the interruption. The concept is based on use rather than some contract or agreement so they are easier to prove. You wouldn’t have to prove what was said those many years ago. Of course, something must have been represented. Why else would someone buy a hangar unless they could put it to use? Having said all that, pursuing this will still cost. Still, it doesn’t cost much to write a letter and negotiate if you have a credible and reasonable argument to rely on.
    Last edited by chadronmike; 11-30-2017 at 07:21 PM.
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  18. #18
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    Did he not try speaking with them? A LOT of farming is subbed out these days. Entirely possible the 'old man' quit and began leasing or subbing out the land and he didn't instruct the new guys, maybe just a new tractor operator (kid) didn't know the layout. Tons of similar scenarios come to mind when the other side is unknown and we often tend to think the worst. The other side needs to be posted. Sometimes a few words goes a lot further than an attorney.
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    Might be just as Little Wing Stated. Just some miscommunication. Try the easy route first. Can you land an airplane on a road in SD,thought it was one of those states.
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    You might contact AOPA and see if there are other comparable cases out there.

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    Cub Special Ed's Avatar
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    Was no mistake. There are 3 brothers. The other 2 actualy chewed the 3d out for what happened. He has been farming ditches and actualy farming into other folks fields. Not realy much we can do now. The runway is gone. Dad is currently working with another fellow down the road to put one in. Thanks for the help foks.
    "There are 3 kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves." Will Rogers

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    aktango58's Avatar
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    If you have two brother's support, and it is indeed a farm field, pretty easy to drag it smooth, pack it down and replant... much easier than many of the runway construction projects around.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

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    180Marty's Avatar
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    The other 2 actualy chewed the 3d out for what happened. He has been farming ditches and actualy farming into other folks fields.
    Sounds a little like my neighbors. They put up a $750,000 1000 head cattle confinement right on the property line and have to drive on my landlords land to work on the north side. This is what they did last Fall when they had to put a new curtain on. They're rich and powerful and own part of the bank.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Cub Special Ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 180Marty View Post
    Sounds a little like my neighbors. They put up a $750,000 1000 head cattle confinement right on the property line and have to drive on my landlords land to work on the north side. This is what they did last Fall when they had to put a new curtain on. They're rich and powerful and own part of the bank.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Its sad to see people being such crooks. Especialy in the ag industry. I used to rent a farm between canton and harrisburg (not far from you 180marty) and alfalfa fields used to be my runways.
    "There are 3 kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves." Will Rogers

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    Cub Special Ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 180Marty View Post
    Sounds a little like my neighbors. They put up a $750,000 1000 head cattle confinement right on the property line and have to drive on my landlords land to work on the north side. This is what they did last Fall when they had to put a new curtain on. They're rich and powerful and own part of the bank.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Oh, i also had a good a&p friend who lived in larchwood i used to fly in and pick up. Im pro ag but im also pro pheasant and deer and im guessing their numbers are dwindelling there also now.
    "There are 3 kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves." Will Rogers

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    Cub Special Ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 180Marty View Post
    Sounds a little like my neighbors. They put up a $750,000 1000 head cattle confinement right on the property line and have to drive on my landlords land to work on the north side. This is what they did last Fall when they had to put a new curtain on. They're rich and powerful and own part of the bank.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20161202_151106.jpg 
Views:	102 
Size:	308.6 KB 
ID:	33910
    Oh, i also had a good a&p friend who lived in larchwood i used to fly in and pick up. Im pro ag but im also pro pheasant and deer and im guessing their numbers are dwindelling there also now.
    "There are 3 kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves." Will Rogers

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    180Marty's Avatar
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    Oh, i also had a good a&p friend who lived in larchwood i used to fly in and pick up. Im pro ag but im also pro pheasant and deer and im guessing their numbers are dwindelling there also now.
    Interesting-----I used to tig weld for the PA12 guy at Larchwood ( not sure I should even tell that). Also, just put 237 crop acres(all I own or or share with my sister and aunt) into the Wetland Restoration, Pheasant, or Gaining ground CRP program. Some guys are supplementing the wild ones by raising little chicks (this year 150 and last about 300) in some heated brooders on the edge of one field. More at some other locations. This year they did Black Pheasants which I never heard of before but they are kind of pretty. Quite a few others did CRP because the ~$300 per acre rent didn't look too bad. Deer are thick around here.

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    Isn't there something in the regulations that prohibit the destruction or alteration of a "charted" airstrip without first notifying the FAA? Dunno if that would do any good, but it might help get approval for a new strip nearby.

    And, be aware, if the old strip remains "charted," the FAA won't approve a new strip anywhere nearby that interferes with the approaches, landing pattern, and airspace of the old one, regardless of whether or not it is being used. If that's correct, you might be SOOL.

  29. #29
    Cub Special Ed's Avatar
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    The old airstrip is still charted. Labeled Thorson south of kabr.
    "There are 3 kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves." Will Rogers

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Heinrich View Post
    Isn't there something in the regulations that prohibit the destruction or alteration of a "charted" airstrip without first notifying the FAA? Dunno if that would do any good, but it might help get approval for a new strip nearby.

    And, be aware, if the old strip remains "charted," the FAA won't approve a new strip anywhere nearby that interferes with the approaches, landing pattern, and airspace of the old one, regardless of whether or not it is being used. If that's correct, you might be SOOL.
    Not accurate. They will approve as long as the two strip owners have an operating agreement. I know as my neighbor's strip's are right next to mine. Close enough in fact that that only one can be on the chart.

  31. #31
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    I think I disagree.
    A friend of mine's strip is officially 1.8 miles (per skyvector flight planning) from my county airport- no problem getting it registered. 0S9 and WA68.
    There's two private strips (one little, the other bigger and public use) literally adjoining each other nearby in Sequim WA. W28 and WN23.
    And what about Reds Horse Ranch and Minam in Oregon?
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    What was I thinking? Of course the government will approve airports that interfere with each other's operations. Sorry for the bad advice.

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