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Anyone less than impressed with VG's on a cub ?

Stewart,
I do not have VG's on the Husky's, many say they work well in keeping airflow attached for better control at slow flight, but then give an abrupt/quick stall at some power on settings. Have not experienced it myself and decided not to install them. I think the Husky with the fowler flaps is different than the cub, so I left them off.
I do have them on the cub, installed them when they first came out without tail VG's, then added them later. Did extensive before and after on cub and they work in my view, holds on much longer and just mushes rather than true stall.
I am installing the Keller/Airframes fowler type flaps on the cub late this year, so will see what that does. Should make it more like the Husky flaps and from tests they say the stall speed is lowered a few mph and keeps nose down on approach, all sounds good.
John
 
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Not speaking from any experience with micro's, but have found gap seals to be helpful in low level/speed meneuvering. Havn't seen the need to have vg's myself, but if i decide to, it will be blr. The ADC pilots i know would never mess with vg. They swear by the blr's.
 
I do note a more abrupt stall on my Rans kitplane then before installing VG's. BUT, it's only when I am so far below the "normal" flight regime (pre VG install) that I get more benefit out of them hazard. They seem to allow me to make landings more consistently when the plane is flat done flying, so any rollout is not floaty, this characteristic is most useful for LZ's of an unknown roughness or hazards, and of course just short. This abrupt stall is so far below the normal flight regime I don't feel endangered by it, you'd have to be asleep at the stick to do it inadvertently. It did nip me twice, before I got a clearer handle on it, but as I was only 6 or 8 feet above the ground I got away with it without any damage. Make that, any major damage. I suppose some of this is the enhanced elevator authority, with more power comes greater responsibility!
 
I've never flown the BLR kit only the Micros in PA-18A, PA-11, PA-12, and Taylorcraft. After reading here and research elsewhere it appears they work differently and for some better. Might change my outlook if I flew them some.

Gary
 
stewartb said:
Re: VGs and slats. I’ve asked the guys I respect the most about the combination and my wings will roll out with VGs installed on the leading edges (not on the slats). I just wondered about the before and after impressions.
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Stewart, You are in the unique position of having a plane that is different from most others. Since you will have a fight test time to fly off you should use that to do some quality testing. Leave the VGs off initially. Then after you have established just what the characteristics are, install the VGs in order to notice the difference, if any. No one here has done and reported just what or how well the VGs function on a slatted wing.

Unless proven otherwise, it is my opinion that the slot behind the slat accelerates the air over the wing, in effect doing the same thing as the VGs.
 
I always liked what my late father said about VG's when they first came out. He said "if you paid $1000 for a half full zip lock bag you'd tell everybody they work too"
 
Another thing ive heard is the vgs take away the warnings of an impending stall. Letting you have good authority untill it just breaks. When it does you better be coordinated. Just what ive heard anyway. Everyone has their own ideas. I know without vgs, my cub lets me know in advance id better start getting my crap together. If you want stability at slow speeds, i would think big droop tips would be more effective to keep upright. But for the hunters they are hard to get into a steep turn back to target.
 
skywagon8a said:
Stewart, You are in the unique position of having a plane that is different from most others. Since you will have a fight test time to fly off you should use that to do some quality testing. Leave the VGs off initially. Then after you have established just what the characteristics are, install the VGs in order to notice the difference, if any. No one here has done and reported just what or how well the VGs function on a slatted wing.

Unless proven otherwise, it is my opinion that the slot behind the slat accelerates the air over the wing, in effect doing the same thing as the VGs.
Click to expand...

Pass. I’m not interested in sequential testing. I want the best wing that current empirical evidence suggests, which is a slat with oversized VGs and split flaps. You seem to have an axe to grind with VGs. You have a clean wing. You can do whatever testing you want to do. In fact I wish you VG nay sayers would do some testing. Negative pireps by guys with no practical use with what they’re commenting on are meaningless.

How many guys here have added VGs and chosen to remove them after flying them? How many have added them and chosen to keep them? That ratio would be pretty telling.
 
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john schwamm said:
Stewart,
I do not have VG's on the Husky's, many say they work well in keeping airflow attached for better control at slow flight, but then give an abrupt/quick stall at some power on settings. Have not experienced it myself and decided not to install them. I think the Husky with the fowler flaps is different than the cub, so I left them off.
I do have them on the cub, installed them when they first came out without tail VG's, then added them later. Did extensive before and after on cub and they work in my view, holds on much longer and just mushes rather than true stall.
I am installing the Keller/Airframes fowler type flaps on the cub late this year, so will see what that does. Should make it more like the Husky flaps and from tests they say the stall speed is lowered a few mph and keeps nose down on approach, all sounds good.
John
Click to expand...

I was daydreaming about VG applications and wonder why VGs seem more popular/more effective on jackscrew tails than trim tabs. The Husky pirep adds fuel to that curiosity.

Did you ever ever fly the slatted Husky prototype?
 
I first flew then installed them on my PA-18A and left them on. But I had aileron gap seals as well so who knows what was best for slow control? I flew, then installed, then left them off after a rebuild of my flapped and 18 tail PA-11 and noted no difference when the plane was flown sensibly not near whatever edge effect folks find is out there. The PA-12 I flew with them had no flaps and a stock small tail so elevator authority was underwhelming and it had to be provoked to stall. The PA-12-180 with flaps I owned had Crosswind's kit which I removed and then I preferred the stock wing. Never did install VG's. I installed and would never take them off my Taylorcraft. Cubs pilots that have flown that wing would tend to agree I believe.

So they have their place and maybe BLR's work better than the Micro's I had and have.

Gary
 
stewartb said:
Pass. I’m not interested in sequential testing. I want the best wing that current empirical evidence suggests, which is a slat with oversized VGs and split flaps. You seem to have an axe to grind with VGs. You have a clean wing. You can do whatever testing you want to do. In fact I wish you VG nay sayers would do some testing. Negative pireps by guys with no practical use with what they’re commenting on are meaningless.

How many guys here have added VGs and chosen to remove them after flying them? How many have added them and chosen to keep them? That ratio would be pretty telling.
Click to expand...

Testing? Well, my buddy "tested" a set of Micro's on his Arctic Tern and good thing he taped them on because the results were not good, so bad in fact it scared the heck out of him. After his flight, I had no interest or need to fly the airplane myself. Granted, these were not certified on the Tern at the time, he used some sort of formula as to where to mount them, he didn't just slap em on. Good thing he taped them on with 2 side tape instead of gluing them on, made for easier removal. My point is, they work on some airplanes and wings and don't work on some.

Multiple people have "tested" them on Husky's with mixed to unfavorable results, based on their experiences and being completely satisfied with the way my non VG Husky fly's I have decided to not go thru the expense and effort to install them on my airplane. Is this a negative pirep or meaningless comment?

I would imagine the reason that those who are not satisfied with their VG's haven't removed them is because they are not easy to remove if they are glued on.
 
I would have happily removed the Micro kit from my Cessna 170, if it had not totally screwed up a ver expensive paint job.

If I had it to do over, I’d have installed them with double sided tape and promptly removed them after a few flights.

i would happily remove the VGs on my current PA-11 as well. But again, it’d make a mess removing the things.

I don’t know many people who would spend a thousand bucks for one of these kits, then take a pocket knife to the things to remove them, and a bunch of paint.

MTV
 
Warning: Brief non Cub discussion. Ignore if desired.

My Taylorcraft wing and the Tern/earlier Interstate use the same 23012 airfoil but the Tern is without any washout. Mine has the factory ~1.5*. The Tern has flaps of course. My VG's are quite far forward and tern (pun) my brisk stock stall into a mush.

But here's the kicker with the VG placement on that wing. After about 10* AOA it develops a documented flow discontinuity somewhat aft of the leading edge due to the airfoil's forward slope shape and 12% thickness. If the VG's are placed far enough aft in that turbulent area and not in front they'll do little good and maybe harm (speculation).

The 23012 flow separation described: https://books.google.com/books?id=X...6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=23012 leading edge&f=false

Gary
 
stewartb said:
Pass. I’m not interested in sequential testing. I want the best wing that current empirical evidence suggests, which is a slat with oversized VGs and split flaps. You seem to have an axe to grind with VGs. You have a clean wing. You can do whatever testing you want to do. In fact I wish you VG nay sayers would do some testing. Negative pireps by guys with no practical use with what they’re commenting on are meaningless.

How many guys here have added VGs and chosen to remove them after flying them? How many have added them and chosen to keep them? That ratio would be pretty telling.
Click to expand...
No I do not have an ax to grind with VGs. I want proof that an item will improve or detract in it's function. I do not believe in installing an item just because "everyone else is doing it". You have an amateur built airplane and you are required to perform flight testing to prove it's function before you gallivant around the country side. When someone proves that VGs actually do improve a wings performance with slats and Keller flaps, then I will encourage everyone to go for it. No one has done this yet. Frankly Stewart, I have been around the block quite a few times in the aviation business. I've worn more hats than I can count in both the mechanical and the piloting side of aviation. I have been a flight test pilot for the certification of several different projects. I turned down an unsolicited job offer from Piper as a test pilot. I have offered you at no charge the knowledge which I have gained while I accumulated about 29,000 hours of piloting time over 60 years. You continually approach my offer of goodwill with arrogance which is uncalled for. Yet I still continue to try to help which is my nature. I'm sorry for you. I hope that you don't get hurt in your new plane. Any comments which I post here are only intended to activate people's brains in an effort to improve performance and safety.
 
Started without on my SC, put them on and now I wouldn’t have one without them but I don’t have them on the 180K with the late model cuff... but I’d like to fly one with them.
 
stewartb said:
...How many guys here have added VGs and chosen to remove them after flying them? How many have added them and chosen to keep them? That ratio would be pretty telling.
Click to expand...

Not too many people would bother removing them unless they caused a problem or reduction in performance.
Might as well just leave them on...esp if removing them would leave a punch of blems in the paint job.
Part of it may be that no one wants to admit (even to themselves) that the mod they just spent $$$ on doesn't do much for them.
I put a set on my old C150/150TD but wished afterward that I hadn't bothered.
II have since sold that airplane, but if I'd had to remove them to repair or repaint the wing,
I probably wouldn't have bothered reinstalling them.

My C180 had flap gap seals when I bought it.
Reading through aviation magazines from back in the day,
they seemed to be the big thing back in the 1970's & 80's (before VG's came along)--
better climb, faster cruise, etc etc.
I removed mine and was unable to see any difference in performance-
same stall speed, same cruise speed, same climb rate.
I'd never heard of anyone else removing them--
but I did notice later than my buddy's C180 had a row of empty holes on the wing in front of the flaps, just like mine.
 
Kustatan said:
I always liked what my late father said about VG's when they first came out. He said "if you paid $1000 for a half full zip lock bag you'd tell everybody they work too"
Click to expand...
One time in college I partnered on a $1000 half full zip lock bag. I think it worked, but I don’t really remember?
 
hotrod180 said:
Not too many people would bother removing them unless they caused a problem or reduction in performance.
Might as well just leave them on...esp if removing them would leave a punch of blems in the paint job.
Part of it may be that no one wants to admit (even to themselves) that the mod they just spent $$$ on doesn't do much for them.
I put a set on my old C150/150TD but wished afterward that I hadn't bothered.
II have since sold that airplane, but if I'd had to remove them to repair or repaint the wing,
I probably wouldn't have bothered reinstalling them.

My C180 had flap gap seals when I bought it.
Reading through aviation magazines from back in the day,
they seemed to be the big thing back in the 1970's & 80's (before VG's came along)--
better climb, faster cruise, etc etc.
I removed mine and was unable to see any difference in performance-
same stall speed, same cruise speed, same climb rate.
I'd never heard of anyone else removing them--
but I did notice later than my buddy's C180 had a row of empty holes on the wing in front of the flaps, just like mine.
Click to expand...
Removed the flap gap seals on our 75 185F and the lift reserve on the flare improved dramatically.They were a lift destroyer.
 
ron said:
Removed the flap gap seals on our 75 185F and the lift reserve on the flare improved dramatically.They were a lift destroyer.
Click to expand...
I had a discussion with a friend who was a test pilot for Cessna. It seems that the marketing department wanted those flap gap seals on the 206. So, they ran the 206 through an extensive flight test program. The bottom line was that the needle on the airspeed indicator moved up from one side of the line on the indicator to the other in both cruise and stall speed. In other words it was about 1 mph faster in cruise and stall.
 
skywagon8a said:
I do not believe in installing an item just because "everyone else is doing it". I've worn more hats than I can count in both the mechanical and the piloting side of aviation. I have been a flight test pilot for the certification of several different projects. I turned down an unsolicited job offer from Piper as a test pilot. I have offered you at no charge the knowledge which I have gained while I accumulated about 29,000 hours of piloting time over 60 years.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the post skywagon.
Like some, I don't jump on the latest and greatest til somewhere down the road. Because I used to spend nights with the airplane out in inclement weather, I never was too keen on the vg's because they would make it hard to rope the wing off. But finally I broke down and decided to try them because of the type of flying I do. Now I will be the first to admit I would just literally suck at being a test pilot. I can't go up there and tell you squat about wihat the airplane is doing. So the only way I can tell is to go out and work it just like I always have-- ham fisted and lead footed.
The first thing I noticed was when I came out of deep powder on bushwheels I didn't have to stagger around for a while getting up enough speed to keep flying. Same with skis. you could comfortably fly as soon as you could get the skis out of the snow. I'm pretty sure those same VG's have saved my arse more times than I care to admit when I tried to get too slow in too rough of country with crappy winds, but I'm not a test pilot and I can't go prove it.

I'm just too old to figure out the why of a lot of things but I have figured out the VG's are good if you are working a Supercub hard in unfavorable conditions.
 
I have a 180k for 20 years and 3000 hrs.plane flys perfect book numbers. 5 yrs ago on stock wings I put blr vgs on. Flying it on approach with same attitude I can bring the airspeed down 5to 6 knots slower below the white arc. I have them on my 180 hr cub with blrs
 
One thing that VG's (and cuffs - slats) may like is prop blast. What might make them locally effective is the vigorous flow induced downstream over wing sections behind the prop and under the tail if installed. Some may already have done some tuft testing of that wing section power off vs on and know. Would be interesting to see if that's the case.

Gary
 
Stewart, I was thinking the same thing Pete suggested, fly with just the slats and get comfortable and then add the VGs and then you would know.
 
The evolution of slats with VGs has happened more recently than without slats and the result of testing and fleet experience favors VGs. I was curious about any pireps in addition to those I’ve gotten privately. I didn’t build this plane to be almost as good as it can be so don’t have much interest in rolling it out it that way.
 
stewartb said:
The evolution of slats with VGs has happened more recently than without slats and the result of testing and fleet experience favors VGs. I was curious about any pireps in addition to those I’ve gotten privately. I didn’t build this plane to be almost as good as it can be so don’t have much interest in rolling it out it that way.
Click to expand...

So you are not curious as to the before and after? I would be. I still don't understand accelerating the air through the slat only to break in up in channels with the VGs. Would love to see some data on how that works.
 
S2D said:
Thanks for the post skywagon.
Like some, I don't jump on the latest and greatest til somewhere down the road. Because I used to spend nights with the airplane out in inclement weather, I never was too keen on the vg's because they would make it hard to rope the wing off. But finally I broke down and decided to try them because of the type of flying I do. Now I will be the first to admit I would just literally suck at being a test pilot. I can't go up there and tell you squat about wihat the airplane is doing. So the only way I can tell is to go out and work it just like I always have-- ham fisted and lead footed.
The first thing I noticed was when I came out of deep powder on bushwheels I didn't have to stagger around for a while getting up enough speed to keep flying. Same with skis. you could comfortably fly as soon as you could get the skis out of the snow. I'm pretty sure those same VG's have saved my arse more times than I care to admit when I tried to get too slow in too rough of country with crappy winds, but I'm not a test pilot and I can't go prove it.

I'm just too old to figure out the why of a lot of things but I have figured out the VG's are good if you are working a Supercub hard in unfavorable conditions.
Click to expand...

S2d, next time im up for fuel we can swap -11's and see the difference. They are 2 different airplanes though. Ahh, who am i kidding, i just want to fly that beutiful -11 of yours.
 
Steve Pierce said:
So you are not curious as to the before and after? I would be. I still don't understand accelerating the air through the slat only to break in up in channels with the VGs. Would love to see some data on how that works.
Click to expand...
Here is part of a youtube video...a NACA wind tunnel test of slots and slats
https://youtu.be/q_eMQvDoDWk?t=8m41s
If its still here, the video of Jerry Burr not only doing top of the wing tuft testing with VG's...but also had long streamers positioned out ahead of the wing, showing at what angle-of-attack that some of the flow over the wing actually reversed....instead of going under the wing...but reversed and started flowing over the wing.
Jerry Burr, Wayne Mackey and others have been doing a lot of experimentation with Cub wings....and if they find merit in something...I'd bet there is something to it.
I'll admit that I'm not any kind of expert, haven't stayed at a Holiday Inn overnight in quite a while, but the first time I flew a USA 35B airfoil with Micro vortice generators...it felt like a whole different animal than what I was used to.
My experience that sold me on the vortice generators was one of not flying intentionally "on the edge"...but allowed me to get away with a big dose of stupidity when I was landing high and hot on a short runway with ski's on...after getting the ski's down and feeling like I wasn't going to get it stopped...I decided (late)to go around...well, if felt real ugly but nothing got bent and no trees or buildings were harmed.
I have spent a lot of money on life insurance in my life...a whole lot more than 700$ for a set of vortice generators.
I'm pretty sure that I got my moneys worth in just one experience. JMHO.
 
Steve Pierce said:
So you are not curious as to the before and after? I would be. I still don't understand accelerating the air through the slat only to break in up in channels with the VGs. Would love to see some data on how that works.
Click to expand...

If I wasn't curious I wouldn't have asked. Curious enough to spend time and effort to explore it? The G3X split screen with flight instrumentation and a VIRB feed would be a good platform for it but I have nothing to gain for the effort.
 
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Cub Special Ed said:
S2d, next time im up for fuel we can swap -11's and see the difference. They are 2 different airplanes though. Ahh, who am i kidding, i just want to fly that beutiful -11 of yours.
Click to expand...
yea, but you run with that crowd that doesn't think the thrustline mod is any good either :-O
 
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