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Backcountry Engine Preheat

A generator is my fav when convenient, but a Honda 1000 with a little gas in it weighs 35# and doesn't live in the plane. Sometimes the need to preheat happens when you didn't expect it so the gennie would be in the shed at home. In cold weather I take an MSR stove as survival equipment so the ammo box is an easy carry and it works great. It's a nice heat box for coffee or to warm hands or a sandwich, too. I'd like a lighter weight box but never found the need to make the time.

Different days favor different solutions. Would I choose my ammo box to preheat in town? No. Would I carry a generator on a fly-out day to snowshoe or ski or ice fish? No.
 
KevinJ said:
Take it to your local laundry mat......at night! I used to wash winter horse blankets that way. If they catch you, you’ll find a nasty note on the front door the next time you come back prohibiting the washing of horse blankets.
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In a previous life, I owned a laundromat. I used to wash coyote hides in the big washer after hours. Pissed my employee off. [emoji4] Hair everywhere, but the hides sure came out clean and smelled good. Use the big commercial washer for your blanket, they are designed for a lot of stuff.


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When I had my PA18 I used this little Coleman Sportcat propane heater. I made the little deflecor shield for it. It fit in there just right with the cowl closed.

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Last July I picked up a carbon fiber pod from Randy at Carbon Concepts. This thread got me to wondering if the Honda 1000 would fit in it OK. So this morning I checked and it slides in there nicely.

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Predictions are for another La Nina winter. I'm hoping we get a winter like last year....lots of snow.
 

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I take my 2000 in my snow machine trailer and if it tips it spills oil. Maybe only on one side? I didn’t pay that much attention. Your pic had me wondering.
 
Like stewart says, different pre heat for different missions. I was sick of babysitting my gas fired unit for up to four hours. Here in Ak we only have a short daylight window to work with even on the best weather days. If I KNOW I am staying the night, the generator is coming. Otherwise the northern companion is in tow.

As for home base, plug it in the night before and sleep like a baby knowing that she will be heat soaked in the morn. Staying at the cabin, the generator can be fired up while you go pack the gear, eat breakfast, hit the latrine and pre flight without open flame worry.

Memories of a fire damaged 170 in Soldotna fill my mind.
 
I would think you might run into problems with it on its side. If the oil gets past the rings and into the spark plug, or intake. Lay it on its side at home for a few days and try to start it. I would just carry it behind passenger seat.
DENNY
 
Interesting question about side down travel for the gen so maybe experiment at home first. I have no idea what would happen but there are a couple of things to consider. Honda vents the carb out of the gen's case through some plastic tubing that's on the side of the oil fill cover. If the carb's inlet valve is opened due to draining some fuel then more fuel under pressure from a closed-vent tank might work its way through the carb and out the vent lines. Same for the oil breather plumbing that's on the same side on the 2000 models at least. The fuel tank outlet is lower than the carb and is pumped up to the carb.

So I guess my inclination is to try setting it sideways with the carb/oil breather UP and see what happens. Might have to empty the fuel tank for transport and then refill before running.

Edit: good point about the oil and rings/valves above.

Gary
 
My plane is 12, pod a bit bigger. I slide it through door on side, then once in pod stand it up, turn it sideways and push it all the way forward. They will leak on side.

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Pros of Whisperlite setup:
-lower cost
-light weight
-does not require Tanis nor Reiff install, so can be used on other's aircraft who do not have those systems installed

Cons of Whisperlite setup:
-risk of fire
-more involved setup

Pros of Honda setup:
-no significant risk of fire
-easy setup...Tanis/Reiff already installed

Cons of Honda setup:
-expense of generator
-expense of Tanis/Reiff
-heavier weight

Randy
 
SteveE said:
In a previous life, I owned a laundromat. I used to wash coyote hides in the big washer after hours. Pissed my employee off. [emoji4] Hair everywhere, but the hides sure came out clean and smelled good. Use the big commercial washer for your blanket, they are designed for a lot of stuff.

And you wonder why Texicans make fun of Okies......your employee might have just thought Ron Jeremy had been in to do a load of underwear:-(
Click to expand...
 
Other Pros of generators: Charge your wife's cell phone/tablet/computer-keep her happy. Run a light or two, keep her happy. Run an electric blanket/heating pad, keep her happy....
 
skukum12 said:
Other Pros of generators: Charge your wife's cell phone/tablet/computer-keep her happy. Run a light or two, keep her happy. Run an electric blanket/heating pad, keep her happy....
Click to expand...

I like it! I have some motorcycle heated riding gear that would work in the cold if the extension cord was long enough. But the electric blanket is a good survival item..and that plus a Kindle reader would keep her happy while I shoveled our way out of stuck in winter overflow. Now for the microwave to cook popcorn.

Gary
 
WindOnHisNose said:
Pros of Whisperlite setup:
-lower cost
-light weight
-does not require Tanis nor Reiff install, so can be used on other's aircraft who do not have those systems installed

Cons of Whisperlite setup:
-risk of fire
-more involved setup

Pros of Honda setup:
-no significant risk of fire
-easy setup...Tanis/Reiff already installed

Cons of Honda setup:
-expense of generator
-expense of Tanis/Reiff
-heavier weight

Randy
Click to expand...
Expense? What's money worth when it's -20 and your 100 miles from nowhere and can't get plane started and weather moving in and you might be there a few days. Geeze I'm really glad I saved a couple of hundred bucks. Have fun with that one. Old adage the cheapest part of flying is the owner. Not how I roll. Heavy? Less than 30lbs for generator. Ever flown a plane with density altitude of -15,000 feet? I've bivouaced at -40 for a day or two for other reasons than can't get plane started from a failed preheat. Not really very festive.

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I came to realization that many people posting haven’t dealt with deep cold. Gary and I have and vollied good advice. Time of exposure in cold is key. Land, yank Honda, one or two pulls, plug in cord, BOOM, 2 minutes with gloves on and I have continuous heat. Other option: dig for Ammo can, try to assemble parts stiff, cold and delicate. Put fuel in stove. Heating paste. Try to light POS lightweight stove with heating paste and lighter that won’t work at subzero. 10 try’s and it’s finally lit. Wind blows it out. Finally after 20 minutes stove is running and you got scat pipe that’s like a wedding Dick up in cowl but you had to put gap in cowl cover and let cold air in. Temperature from stove to cowl entrance halves. Wind blows whole contraption over so you get to start again. On and on. Meanwhile I took 2 minutes and went inside or started building fire. Or, there’s power available. I pull up to tie down and plug in. You go through contraption mode when you want to fly and spend 3 hours doing it. I pull cord, start and go. This is a no brainer. Put a Reiff or Tannis on if your serious about winter flying. Find a way to get 110AC. If your an occasional tourist, dabble at winter flying try your complicated stuff. In deep cold simple, fast and reliable is worth more than gold, could be your life.


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Scooter's post...well we're all aging but having camped at my remote shack and trapped for years all winter with a snowmachine and plane pay attention to what he says. It all works until it doesn't. Shelter, heat, experience with "been there" works.

I know a local trapper that flew the Yukon Flats for years with a 8x10 wall tent and a metal stove filled with fire wood. The engine was still clinking down when he was camped inside a shelter and was getting a hot fire going. That was before generators and heaters.

Ever stand next to your plane in a breeze at -cold under a full moon in deep snow and wonder...how am I going to get this and me to a better place when it's time with this crap? I have and know what it takes to have a comfortable safe experience when it counts.

Gary
 
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The last post reminded me of this picture I took last winter. I don’t remember the temperature now. It was below zero but not a lot below. I walked outside from the cabin with a full moon rising and took a couple of pictures. Propane light in cabin. The Honda was hooked up but not visible in this picture.

I like winter.
 

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This thread is like Readers Digest. So much drama!

My gas stoves have started fine in -50 temps. My generators have not. Starting fluid helps. Gas stove to preheat generator? Done that more than a few times. Little portables can get placed indoors to warm up but 1000w generators don’t make enough power to preheat a bigger generator unless you added a preheater to it, and I never have. No need. Gas stoves work fine. One of my Cabin tricks is to keep a torpedo heater with an inverter mounted to it. Grab a battery and it’ll heat whatever I point it at. This one is ready to go north when the river freezes. Making heat in Alaska winter requires a little MacGyvering if you do it long enough.

Cabin life. You wake up early to find the thermometer registering -48*. Next, you find out your propane bottle is too empty to make gas to make coffee so you get to drag a new hundred pounder out of the shed and through the snow so you can change the bottle. At -48 in the dark. Flashlight in mouth isn’t ever comfy in -48, let alone dragging a heavy bottle with an early morning stiff back. The things we do for fun.
 

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stewartb said:
This thread is like Readers Digest. So much drama!

My gas stoves have started fine in -50 temps. My generators have not. Starting fluid helps. Gas stove to preheat generator? Done that more than a few times. Little portables can get placed indoors to warm up but 1000w generators don’t make enough power to preheat a bigger generator unless you added a preheater to it, and I never have. No need. Gas stoves work fine. One of my Cabin tricks is to keep a torpedo heater with an inverter mounted to it. Grab a battery and it’ll heat whatever I point it at. This one is ready to go north when the river freezes. Making heat in Alaska winter requires a little MacGyvering if you do it long enough.

Cabin life. You wake up early to find the thermometer registering -48*. Next, you find out your propane bottle is too empty to make gas to make coffee so you get to drag a new hundred pounder out of the shed and through the snow so you can change the bottle. At -48 in the dark. Flashlight in mouth isn’t ever comfy in -48, let alone dragging a heavy bottle with an early morning stiff back. The things we do for fun.
Click to expand...
That's darn clever Stewart!

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Re: Northern Companions, ammo boxes, or whatever combustion heater a guy may choose? I've heated my plane with my ammo box on days when I had a 1000w Yamaha sitting in plain sight. No burden. I usually will be outdoors playing with the dog or dragging the strip on a snowmachine anyway. I use the generator, too, but the idea that one is a chore and the other isn't? Not true in my opinion. Preheating and wing covers are always a chore. But on a cold, clear, sunny day I'm not in a hurry. On a low, windy, cruddy day with a black wall of weather approaching? Different story. Fire it up cold. Let's get the hell out of Dodge!
 
I know a local trapper that flew the Yukon Flats for years with a 8x10 wall tent and a metal stove filled with fire wood. The engine was still clinking down when he was camped inside a shelter and was getting a hot fire going. That was before generators and heaters.


Gary[/QUOTE]

That is what Sam White used to do. Probably the most incredible resourceful outdoor man that ever lived.
 
I have a battery and 12-120V inverter mounted in my truck and a portable one out in the woods camp if I don't want or can't start the generator. I think they are about 800-1000W inverters from an auto parts store and not expensive. Also 25K BTU fuel oil space heaters at both ends with 90* angle stove pipe on the outlet. The are mostly unavailable now new except from DeWalt today especially the 25K units. Quicker heat than other stuff but have to make sure there's lots of air flow through the engine. Throw a tarp cover over all and don't melt things. Fuel boiling in the glass gascolator is a sign of too much heat being applied. Those heaters make starting a snowmachine and warming the belt easy.

The canvas tube shaped cover over the engine down to the ground I described earlier is an old design developed by the early aviators in Canada and Alaska. Prop pokes up vertical (is covered separately) and allows a vent spot for hot air. I can put it over an engine cover with the electric heater inside and the generator inside the tube on the ice to stay warm out of the wind, or stick the nose of the space heater inside without the engine cover on and use it for heat. It also makes a small light tarp shelter to carry along in the plane for a lean-to backstop against a wood fire or to get out of the wind.

Don't forget to wrap your flash lite with tape so it doesn't freeze to your mouth.

Gary
 
G44 said:
I know a local trapper that flew the Yukon Flats for years with a 8x10 wall tent and a metal stove filled with fire wood. The engine was still clinking down when he was camped inside a shelter and was getting a hot fire going. That was before generators and heaters.


Gary
Click to expand...

That is what Sam White used to do. Probably the most incredible resourceful outdoor man that ever lived.[/QUOTE]

I met him briefly before he passed. Had a guy from work that lived nearby Sam that took him a fish or some game to go with his garden produce. We had tea and he talked about flying his L-5 Stinson and winter camping...that's where first I got the heads up about an instant camp in the cold. Then Joe Mattie another trapper told me he carried one too so the idea stuck. Both of them surely outdid me when it came to going and doing in winter. Different class of folks back then than now.

Edit: https://www.amazon.com/Sam-White-Alaskan-Legendary-Wildlife/dp/1575101300

Gary
 
We have gear options that our fathers and grandfathers never would have dreamed of. That makes what used to be extraordinary in their day rather ordinary now. GPS, sat phones, 6# tents, Wiggy sleeping bags, gore tex, polar fleece... the list is long. Heck, look at Scooter's wife as an example. She takes minimum gear and runs across Alaska in the middle of winter. On purpose! The old timers would have said she's crazy.
 
BC12D-4-85 said:
Interesting question about side down travel for the gen so maybe experiment at home first. I have no idea what would happen but there are a couple of things to consider. Honda vents the carb out of the gen's case through some plastic tubing that's on the side of the oil fill cover. If the carb's inlet valve is opened due to draining some fuel then more fuel under pressure from a closed-vent tank might work its way through the carb and out the vent lines. Same for the oil breather plumbing that's on the same side on the 2000 models at least. The fuel tank outlet is lower than the carb and is pumped up to the carb.

So I guess my inclination is to try setting it sideways with the carb/oil breather UP and see what happens. Might have to empty the fuel tank for transport and then refill before running.

Edit: good point about the oil and rings/valves above.

Gary
Click to expand...

IMG_4284.jpg

I laid the generator on it's side for 24 hours with the carb on the up side. Following this I looked around inside with a flashlight and couldn't see any oil or fuel inside of the case. So, I placed it on the floor, opened the fuel vent on the cap, gave it some choke and pulled. It almost started on the first pull and took right off on the second pull.

I'm sure I'll never leave it in the pod on it's side for extended periods. It seems safe to carry it that way for a few hours from this test. At least with my generator.
 

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Fooled around with ideas last year, biggest issue, in my mind, was trying to keep the heat in the cowl regardless of which external heat source you used. Cub cowls are hard to plug up.
Commercially avail cowl covers are pretty bulky and heavy. Couple of us started using Mylar space blankets taped around the cowl during heating, this evolved into sewing up a cover out of Mylar tarp which is a little more durable but still light and compact and reusable, attached over cowl with fastec buckles. Cotton pant leg sewn in the bottom to accept heat tube.
the heat source was derived from an MSR stove and some Ace hardware parts.
all cheap and compact. Ducting is 3" aluminum vent hose, (not dryer duct hose) that accordions to about 4 times its collapsed shape. all the components "nest" together when stored
Im still a little nervous around this setup as heat source is open flame. Fire extinguisher close at hand and don't leave heating plane unattended.

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After a year plus with my “skinny” half-thickness insulated engine cover? I’ll never go back to a puffy cover. Half the normal insulation is more than adequate.
 
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