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Just for Fun Configure this Engine Upgrade

j5mike

j5mike

Registered User
North Alabama
We are about to do an engine swap on the Crimson Cub. Currently has a narrow deck 0-320 160hp. Have since aquired a Titan 0-340 removed from a wrecked carbon cub with the light weight sump. I have some ideas on outfitting her but given the same circumstances, what would you do? So far the only item I have purchased is the CGR-30 engine analizer as everything is electronic on this engine. I seriously considered the glass panel upgrade but much research seems to question reliability. I like the old school gauges anyway. So whose baffling?(Van's or is there something better) What Exhaust? (leaning vettermans') Oil Cooler and where to mount it. Cub crafters has it on top of the engine but I can't see how to make it happen. I am a little concerned about oil temps and cylinder cooling on the rear mounted one. Oil Temps and CHT are my main concern. Prop and pitch (Catto but what pitch, 84/44?) Catto recommended a 82/42.5 but that seems to flat for this engine. Looking for a little more speed than the 85mph (at 2350 rpm) than I get on my catto 84/37. But to be fair I can hit 92mph if I push it up to 2500rpm but the fuel burn ain't worth it. Also need a new nose bowl, isn't there someone around here that makes those? Very much enjoy this forum and appreciate any input. How many of you have a 0-340 on the supercub airframe (besides Charlie:smile:).
Mike & Donna
 
See if Clint with Vetterman can make a package deal for ya. He sells the Whirlwind ground adjustable setup. Maybe he can package prop and exhaust together for discount?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk
 
The recommended 82x45.5 is probably plenty of prop. It would equate to (approx) an 82x48 Borer. It might even be a bit too much. I've yet to see Craig under pitch a prop. More often than not he over pitches. I think he had RV's on the brain and not Cubs.
 
The 82/45.5 sounds about right. I was thinking 84/44 or 82/46. The longer props seem to have a brake effect when you pull the throttle back on landing. I tend to like that added benefit.
 
I guess it depends on what you want performance wise, but both those props you propose seem borderline big to me. I can say from experience that when dealing with an 82" Catto vs an 82" McBorer, deduct 3 inches pitch from the Mac to get the right Catto.
 
You might contact ECI about configuration. They designed that engine around the MA5-4 carburetor but I am told it would not fit under the Carbon Cub cowl so they used a smaller one and had to do a lot of field mods later on the get temperatures in line. Legend Aircraft used the same CC configuration and had issues. The bigger carburetor solved the issues. Talked to Joe Edwards at Hondo about his Super Legend and the bigger carburetor solved all his issues. Not sure what his username is on this site.
 
Thanks for the info Steve. I do remember reading a thread on the CC forum about drilling out a jet or something in the carburetor. Will see if I can find it again.
 
j5mike said:
Thanks for the info Steve. I do remember reading a thread on the CC forum about drilling out a jet or something in the carburetor. Will see if I can find it again.
Click to expand...

If the engine includes the carb that was on it from CC, why worry about modifying it?

Wouldn’t typical 0-320 baffles work? It is a stroked 320, right?

Doesn’t CC already use electronic ignition? Lightspeed?

If you’re interested in fuel injection call Don or Kyle at Airflow Performance. Very helpful guys. A retrofit kit will run around $3200, plus you’ll need both electric and mechanical fuel pumps, and will need to fabricate an alternate air source.
 
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stewartb said:
If the engine includes the carb that was on it from CC, why worry about modifying it?

Wouldn’t typical 0-320 baffles work? It is a stroked 320, right?

Doesn’t CC already use electronic ignition? Lightspeed?

If you’re interested in fuel injection call Don or Kyle at Airflow Performance. Very helpful guys. A retrofit kit will run around $3200, plus you’ll need both electric and mechanical fuel pumps, and will need to fabricate an alternate air source.
Click to expand...
Because they had a lot of cooling issues and several mods to get it to cool. The baffles were a plenum arrangement that will be different on a different airframe. This is what Legend got into when they took the same engine and put in their airframe. Trying to save him R&D which I believe is what he asked for.
 
The 0-340 is a stroked 320. Installing one into a Supercub should be typical of any 320 install. No R&D needed unless he wants to do some other mods. As for the carb? If the motor ran well in the Carbon Cub it should run well in a Supercub, shouldn’t it?
 
I figured he has a typical Cub cowl. I know lots of planes with hot rod engines that cool fine in Supercub cowls. That’s been a topic of interest for me for quite some time.
 
Having done all the mods on Carbon Cubs and being privy to the issues Legend is having with their conventional Super Cub type cowl I would run the bigger carb like ECI designed the engine with.
 
The only problem I have heard of with Van's baffling is that you have to modify it to hold off the back of #3 cylinder to. Be very careful if you use silicone baffling, If left too long it will blown down and not seal in flight. Make sure it lays flat all the way around top cowl and doors, no excess wavy stuff to allow air leaks. Use metal tape over the door hinge to seal the hinge gap. If you keep the MA-4SPA carb CC has the pepperbox nozzle 47-862 but it may have to be drilled. Make sure you can lean at 150 degrees on you EGT's before they peak. If baffling is tight, ramps in the front will help even out the temps. You may need to open up the bottom cowl and add a bigger seaplane lip. Baffle around the air cleaner and oil cooler if in nose, I prefer a front oil cooler but have a rear one on mine and it works fine. Mine larger than stock 9 row instead of 7, if I remember right. I do have a vertical plate between the cooler and #4 to help direct airflow. Randy at Carbon Concepts will make you a two piece nosebowl. Sounds like a fun project!!
DENNY
 
Steve is right on the cooling issues. That’s my main concern. This 0-340 has a cubcrafters back accessory housing meaning no place for mags or steam gauges. I really like the Pmag setup as that is what I have now but I can’t use them unless I change the back housing. What does that entail? Anyone done? If it was as simple as replacing it with a standard one I would do it. It also has the lightweight small sump. So if we changed the sump and housing, what about internal stuff.
 
I would install as is. Did you get the cooling plenum? Make nice tight baffles, preferably a plenum. If it runs hot I would use the bigger carb. I think Joe used a 170 or 172 airbox and a scoop like standard Super Cub.
 
You need to learn if the main crankcase is different, since if you change the accessory section you will need to install the gears which drive the magnetos. There are holes drilled into the crankcase to accommodate these gears. I too like the P-mags, but what do you not like about the existing electronic ignition on this "new" engine? Will they not do the same thing?
 
Steve, where would I get that plenum. I would definitely use it. As far as light speed vs Pmag this happened yesterday. A friends very new alternator quit charging. Had to hand prop to get home. Since he had Pmag only had to keep rpm above 900 to get home. Light speed does not generate its own power and we would have been stuck. That’s OK close to home you can deal with it but say your 600 miles from home then it becomes a pain. Will have to put a backup battery in for safety.
 
j5mike said:
.. As far as light speed vs Pmag this happened yesterday. A friends very new alternator quit charging. Had to hand prop to get home. Since he had Pmag only had to keep rpm above 900 to get home. Light speed does not generate its own power and we would have been stuck. That’s OK close to home you can deal with it but say your 600 miles from home then it becomes a pain. Will have to put a backup battery in for safety.
Click to expand...
Didn't know that the 340 has light speed without self generation. With that knowledge, I would not use it, ever. I recently was flying with my P-mags and managed to run my battery down (another story). The P-mags brought me home even though I had to paddle to the shore when I got there. I had been flying out over the ocean looking for Whales when the battery stopped producing electricity. I could have landed, but it would have been a long 15 mile paddle to shore. :evil:
 
Word of caution about that 2 ah battery in the Carbon Cub. It only gives you about 15-20 minutes of power to the ignition. A real backup battery needs to hold out at least as long as your fuel supply does.

I've also wired that system so that either ignition system can be powered off the backup battery, not just one as per the factory diagrams. Bypasses Murphy's law and allows you to tun one or the other or both, as needed.

Web
 
Bigger Carb

Steve Pierce said:
I would install as is. Did you get the cooling plenum? Make nice tight baffles, preferably a plenum. If it runs hot I would use the bigger carb. I think Joe used a 170 or 172 airbox and a scoop like standard Super Cub.
Click to expand...

If the air/fuel mixture ratio is kept the same, how will a bigger carb aid in cooling?
 
From the Light Speed manual: http://lightspeed-aero.com/Products/DualSystems.htm

"-Is a back-up battery necessary?
If you are using a battery to start your engine, you have sufficient energy to run an ignition system for several hours after an alternator failure. Therefore, a back-up battery is not required when running a dual electronic ignition system. "

Based on j5mike's story and my experience, I would say that a backup system is mandatory.
 
skywagon8a said:
From the Light Speed manual: http://lightspeed-aero.com/Products/DualSystems.htm

"-Is a back-up battery necessary?
If you are using a battery to start your engine, you have sufficient energy to run an ignition system for several hours after an alternator failure. Therefore, a back-up battery is not required when running a dual electronic ignition system. "

Based on j5mike's story and my experience, I would say that a backup system is mandatory.
Click to expand...

I've 'expressed' my concerns about this to CC. They did not understand my concerns about electrical failures that would remove the ships battery from the circuit. I was told that there was slim chance that it could happen. My belief is that we should do ALL in our power to limit the odds of a catastrophic failure. Therefore, for electronic ignition power sources; alternator, ships battery, backup battery, and then self power (if available).

That backup battery can also make hand propping possible with some of these systems. I.e., dead ships battery = turn on back up battery to ignition system only and swing the prop.

Web
 
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[h=1]14 CFR 33.37 - Ignition system.[/h]https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/33.37

33.37 Ignition system.
Each spark ignition engine must have a dual ignition system with at least two spark plugs for each cylinder and two separate electric circuits with separate sources of electrical energy, or have an ignition system of equivalent in-flight reliability.
 
Belt and Braces Pete,Having been in the air for a" few years",and only had one single mag failure I still like the tried and proven!!!!!
skywagon8a said:
14 CFR 33.37 - Ignition system.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/33.37

33.37 Ignition system.
Each spark ignition engine must have a dual ignition system with at least two spark plugs for each cylinder and two separate electric circuits with separate sources of electrical energy, or have an ignition system of equivalent in-flight reliability.
Click to expand...
 
Jonnyo said:
If the air/fuel mixture ratio is kept the same, how will a bigger carb aid in cooling?
Click to expand...

Engine was designed around the bigger carburetor. Lots of bandaides to make the smaller carb work. Same reason an O-360 uses a different carburetor than an O-320.
 
ron said:
Belt and Braces Pete,Having been in the air for a" few years",and only had one single mag failure I still like the tried and proven!!!!!
Click to expand...
No question Ron, Just passed 60 years of flying and have only had one complete mag failure. Still then was able to fly two hours back home to effect a repair. Must say though, the new electronic P-mags with their own generation, a back up battery and a wind driven dynamo sure does make the engine run better than a pair of mags.
 
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