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Thread: Are there any PA-14 gross weight increases while on floats???

  1. #1
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    Are there any PA-14 gross weight increases while on floats???

    I have flown a few 180 horse converted 14s and a couple 150 horse. They are a GREAT floatplane.

    However,,, the legal original gross weight for floats is around 1935 pounds I think... Not enough for three adults and fuel. Did anyone ever do a gross weight increase for the PA_14s???
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  2. #2
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Alex, The seaplane gross weight would be part of the applicable float STC as the PA-14 is not approved on floats on the TC. The maximum weight on wheels is 1850 lbs.

    http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/fd34b4a887cf0ab786256a61006cac5c/$FILE/a-797.pdf

    Each different type of float which is approved would have the gross weight for that combination on it's STC.
    N1PA

  3. #3
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    STC Number:
    SA190AL

    This certificate issued to:
    M R Borer Aircraft Svc

    STC Holder's Address:
    1307 W. 39th Place
    Anchorage AK 99503
    United States

    Description of the Type Design Change:
    Increased gross weight to1935 pounds.


    So... Somebody figured 1,935 pounds ( like a PA-12) on floats because every PA-14 I have flown has that as a gross on floats. But they were all on EDO 2000s. Probably with Atlee Dodge SA00132SE.
    SA02123AK is for Baumann 2100s, but I have not seen the gross weight listed.

    I read that N4276H was field approved for Wip 2100 Amphibs.

    I was hoping to find an alternative to my current search for a different floatplane. The 180 horse PA-14s I have flown really get with the program out of sort lakes. And they will do it with three guys aboard, Just not legally.

    I need to be able to haul three 200 pound adults, ( me and two others ) plus survival gear and fishing gear... and have enough fuel to get at least 100 miles away and back home. Looks like a PA-14 will not work...
    Last edited by Alex Clark; 10-12-2017 at 03:00 PM.

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    5191H's Avatar
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    “I need to be able to haul three 200 pound adults, ( me and two others ) plus survival gear and fishing et at”

    I agree the 14 is a great airplane but has limitations. Way too many 14 scattered across the landscape in AK because of the above quote. I believe Piper built it as a 4 place to complete in that market but it is not a functional 4 place airplane. 5191H has been in the family for over 50 years and with thousands of wonderful hours flying one my advice is keep it light with 2 adults and gear and it’s a GREAT airplane. A 180 it is not.

    David
    14fan
    14 fan
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  5. #5
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Clark View Post
    I was hoping to find an alternative to my current search for a different floatplane. The 180 horse PA-14s I have flown really get with the program out of sort lakes. And they will do it with three guys aboard, Just not legally.

    I need to be able to haul three 200 pound adults, ( me and two others ) plus survival gear and fishing gear... and have enough fuel to get at least 100 miles away and back home. Looks like a PA-14 will not work...
    Alex,
    I think that you need to bite the bullet and spring for a 185 on straight floats. Three 200 pounders, plus gear, plus gas, legally. There is no short cut.
    I put a 180K on EDO 2960s with the Kenmore high gross of 3190 lbs. Useful was 1036 lbs.
    My 185 on the same floats useful was 1140 lbs.
    N1PA
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  6. #6
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    Yeap it looks like a P-Ponked upgrossed 180 or 185. Even the Piper PRODUCER stretched PA20 with PA14 wings only has a 1935 lbs legal gross on floats.
    You can only legally put three 200 pound folks in my C-172 on floats if you only have 8-10 gallons of gas and no gear in baggage.

    I wonder what the float gross is on a 180 horse Aeronca Sedan? Probably not enough...

  7. #7
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Alex,
    I think that you need to bite the bullet and spring for a 185 on straight floats. Three 200 pounders, plus gear, plus gas, legally. There is no short cut.
    I put a 180K on EDO 2960s with the Kenmore high gross of 3190 lbs. Useful was 1036 lbs.
    My 185 on the same floats useful was 1140 lbs.
    What he said, Alex.

    MTV
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  8. #8
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Clark View Post
    ..

    I wonder what the float gross is on a 180 horse Aeronca Sedan? Probably not enough...
    http://burlac.com/aero_sedan.html

  9. #9
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    What he said, Alex.

    MTV
    Before my last out of state trip that was what I was trying to do.. Now my wife suddenly has a new piece of property on her mind. She managed to become all fired up about warmer weather.
    Maybe I should start a go fund me site for old fat pilots....

  10. #10
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Clark View Post
    .. Now my wife suddenly has a new piece of property on her mind. She managed to become all fired up about warmer weather.....
    You can rent the warm piece of property. That way you will not be restricted to the same place each season nor will you have the worries and expense of maintaining it. Then you can buy the 185 and use it to commute between the two places.

    That Sedan only has a useful load of 800 pounds on wheels. The gross on floats is only 50 pounds higher so the useful would be a little less.
    http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/6459cb1bcc4f559986257ee3006812ae/$FILE/A-802_Rev_26.pdf
    N1PA
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  11. #11
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Alex,

    A really light 180 with the up gross would likely meet your criteria, assuming you stay with fairly light floats. My H model 180 on EDO 2870 floats had seven pounds more useful load than the brand new 1985 C-185 I was flying at the time, which was on PeeKay 3500 floats. The PeeKay floats are heavy, no doubt, and there are lighter floats that would have reversed that comparison, but.....

    But, it's really all about the individual airplane. It's really not fair to just say "Cessna 180" since the production run was so long, and there are so many mods out there.

    MTV
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  12. #12
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    There was a nice C-180 I was wanting with X-wing extensions and the tail mods. But the guy who claimed he wanted to buy my C172 keeps dragging out the process, so the 180 was sold pretty fast.

    I agree that renting would be a better and more temporary solution. But my wife and I just spent a week swimming in a pool, in 90 degree weather, just a few miles away from where some of our adult kids live. Now that we are back in Alaska, my selling point mo-jo is very weak....
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  13. #13
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    I have seen that plane fly.... Hubba-Hubba....

    But there is not enough Scotch in the world to make me spend over 200 grand for it...

  14. #14
    Fat Kid's Avatar
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    Lol i didn't mean to post the ad. Just want to show the SQ-4 as an option. I think Back country sells the kit now as the tundra boss.

  15. #15
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    I can't do experimental.

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    cubpilot2's Avatar
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    What about one of Steve Bryant's Producers? They are certified.
    Ed

  17. #17
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    Yes, the PRODUCER is certified and a great plane. But they have a 1,935 pound legal gross on floats. Because they use a PA-14 wing.
    The Bushmaster is similar aircraft and might have a slightly higher gross weight. If you could find one that is certified and if their website would ever load up.
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  18. #18

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    Maules go cheaper than 180s and should fit your mission requirements.

  19. #19
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    The price on Maules has really shot up over the past couple of years. A LOT...

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    mvivion's Avatar
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    And, the useful load on Maules probably wouldn’t meet his criteria, with enough gas to go far on floats, anyway.

    MTV

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    I guess we know why Skywagons and 206s are so popular?
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  22. #22
    Charlie Longley's Avatar
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    Disregard
    Last edited by Charlie Longley; 10-14-2017 at 04:10 PM.

  23. #23
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    I found a EDO/Maule brochure. Both the M-6 and M-7 on EDO 2440B floats have a useful load of 1000 pounds. I assume that means no radios etc? Three 200 pounders and 240 lbs gas, leaves 160 lbs for gear. Sound like it will meet your criterion.
    N1PA

  24. #24
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Pete,

    One summer I flew an M-7-235 on Baumann floats. It was a good airplane, but with three up, range was really limited due to limited useful load. Compared to the 185 I normally flew, I couldn't carry anywhere near the load the 185 would in the Maule. Nice airplane, and would have worked if you had really short legs, so able to leave gas behind.

    MTV

  25. #25
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    I would agree Mike.

    Alex asked about a Maule. I've only flown an M-4 on wheels and one (don't know the model) with a 235 on Fiberfloats very light on fuel. One time each. Size wise I would compare them with a Model 15 T-craft in the front seat, tight. The T-craft had a lot of leg room in the back seat. Speaking of T-crafts, I wonder if there are any Model 20s around on floats? Don't know the useful load, but it certainly has the power to do the job.
    N1PA

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    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    As I had mentioned in a couple emails to Mike and Pete, I was researching MAULEs based upon my limited experience doing SES ratings and BFRS in them.
    The M7-235s have a wheel gross of 2,500 lbs and a Seaplane gross of 2,750 pounds. I have looked at the w&b info for 4 M7s so far and they all weighed over 1800 pounds on Aqua 2400 floats. ( maybe because of all the junk in the panels. So they had a 900 pound useful load at most, a couple only had 820 pounds useful on floats. ( which would still be a improvement over my 172 which I sold this morning ) And the 235 horse Lyc powered Maules I have flown were burning around 12 gallons per hour. So 3 hours of fuel = 240 pounds, plus three dressed guys. =600 lbs. and there is 840 pounds right there. So in some Maule M7s you might be also able to carry 50-60 pounds of gear... Maybe.... A long winged M6, with the float upgrades can also go to 2,750 on floats but they have less room inside. Floats for Maules seem to be about twice the price as floats rigged for a C-180.

  27. #27
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Alex,

    Thats almost exactly what I came up with in the M-7 I flew a fair bit. With two up, I could carry enough gas to do a lot of work, but with three and no gear, it had really short legs.

    MTV

  28. #28
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    I always wondered why Maules are not in the top ten at Valdez??? More Hype than lead pipe....??

  29. #29
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Alex,
    This might be worth a phone call. It is a model 20 Taylorcraft at Big Lake with an expired registration. If it has floats it may have some possibilities for your objective. The 20s have a Continental O-470 and constant speed prop. There is only one listed in Alaska. An old timer near here had 2 or 3 of them. At least one was on floats. When he went west, of course his collection disappeared.
    http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinqu...umbertxt=6673N
    N1PA

  30. #30
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    They only made 35 or 40 of the Model 20 T-crafts.

    I wonder how much the standard gear legs and tail wheel weigh on a Aeronca Sedan ? There is one for sale that weighs just under 1200 pounds empty. Edo 2000s weigh something like 255 to 265 lbs. installed.

  31. #31
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Clark View Post

    I wonder how much the standard gear legs and tail wheel weigh on a Aeronca Sedan ? There is one for sale that weighs just under 1200 pounds empty. Edo 2000s weigh something like 255 to 265 lbs. installed.
    call burl, he's the manufacture for Sedans now http://burlac.com

  32. #32
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Here's an interesting discussion of Stinsons on floats: https://backcountrypilot.org/forum/stinson-108-3-3506

    There's one on 2425's here N397C with an O-470 I believe that's rarely flown and still parked at FAI's pond near me.

    Gary

  33. #33
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Clark View Post
    I always wondered why Maules are not in the top ten at Valdez??? More Hype than lead pipe....??
    I was impressed with them this year at the Greenville seaplane fly in. They were spanking pponked early 180’s. I’m sure everyone had just enough fuel to make it around the pattern once.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  34. #34
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    I wonder if they post the results of Greenville? I have only seen some videos.

  35. #35
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    I was impressed with them this year at the Greenville seaplane fly in. They were spanking pponked early 180’s. I’m sure everyone had just enough fuel to make it around the pattern once.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    The long wing Maules I've flown on floats perform really well, particularly when flown light.

    MTV

  36. #36
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    Check out this turbine Maule on floats racing an Air Cam off the water https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1zEdMoCJc8

  37. #37
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Maules at Greenville
    https://youtu.be/i-SBhc44dcM

    185 and 180
    https://youtu.be/N94Giqe47ao

    And carbon cubs
    https://youtu.be/RDk-PNv7sMU


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  38. #38
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    The Maules were impressive, the winner even left with the pretty blond on the way out

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  39. #39
    sadams's Avatar
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    The Bushmaster STC is approved for 2100 lbs.

  40. #40
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    The Bushmaster is not derived from a PA-14.
    Quote Originally Posted by sadams View Post
    The Bushmaster STC is approved for 2100 lbs.
    The Bushmaster is a 4-place Super Cub. It is the ultimate back-country airplane with numerous build options. The Bushmaster's empty weight is around 1,500 lbs and it's gross is 2,150 lbs under the STCand 2,400 lbs in the experimental category. All Bushmasters started out as a PA-20 Pacer or PA-22 Tri-Pacer,
    N1PA

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