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Thread: ADSB Awakening; Am I paranoid?

  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffP View Post
    Many of us have cell phones and yes they can be tracked. The difference is we choose to have a cell phone, ADS out is a mandate.

    I did see uAvionix SkyBeacon supports anonymous mode though.
    Even with anonymous mode, you're still showing up – just not showing an N-number. But you could still be tracked all the way back to your hangar or tie-down.
    Jim Parker
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  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christina Young View Post
    Absolutely. Class B, C and the mode-C veil is only the camel's nose under the tent. They will roll it out to everyone, even those in remote parts of Alaska. Your N-number will be broadcast on the internet for the world to see, and it won't be "people" monitoring where you fly - it will be bots. User fees, airspace restrictions, and personal security risks will come from this. Kiss your privacy goodbye. I fail to see why some here are so cool with the surveillance state... .....
    I'm not all that cool with it, I'm a pessimist but I guess less so than others here.
    FWIW here's a comment I made on another discussion site:

    "The ADS-B "black box" is for air-to-air collision avoidance, and for somebody in a back room to go back & see just what you did after ATC or someone reports a violation.
    Besides tactical and after-the-fact use, ADS-B will also make it possible for everyone to track your flights on the internet-
    including your ex-wife, your creditors, and that guy who's been wanting to burglarize your house or hangar.
    For that reason, I'm with Darryl re keeping as much privacy as possible."
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
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  3. #83
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinner2 View Post
    ....I have ADSB Out and In. I like it. But I don't like the potential down sides to it. It is rather wide spread too. Last week I flew from my home base in NW Montana to Baker City, Oregon and had ADSB coverage almost all of the way. This route took me over some remote country, like Hells Canyon too.
    So has your ADS-B saved you from many near misses in that congested airspace?
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  4. #84
    wirsig's Avatar
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    So how do the big boys hide their info. When working for Kiewit I tried tracking the company jets a couple times and always get this, N341K - KIEWIT ENGINEERING GROUP INC (OMAHA NE)

    This aircraft (N341K) is not available for public tracking per request from the owner/operator.

    Can a lowly commoner like me hide my info as well? Will that no longer work with ADSB?

  5. #85
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Just for the record, GPS by itself can't be traced. It's a passive system that receives signals from satellites and mathematically calculates position. The only way it could be used to track you is if it's memory is checked or if it's tied into another system such as ADS-B.

    Once again, just turn the thing off and you can't be traced. Or turn it on and accept BEING traced. Your call.

    Web
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  6. #86
    Jim Hann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinner2 View Post
    A couple of years ago I was visiting in Iowa. We were driving through Cedar Rapids and as we came to an overpass the driver pointed to a camera/radar installation. He slowed down, even though we weren't speeding, and said that the camera took a picture of your license plate and radar checked your speed. If you speed through there you soon get a ticket in the mail. The same kind of ticket a Trooper would give you if he'd stopped you with lights and a siren.

    There are probably other states and overpasses just like that one too.
    I received one of those Cedar Rapids "tickets" (driving my wife's car that is registered to both of us). "Ticket" came in her name and she was pissed, ranting about points, etc. Well, I sat down and read the entire thing. Basically that first piece of paper is extortion. Pay it and you get no points, etc. on your license. If you don't pay it they move forward with the legal action, court date, points, the whole shebang.

    I just paid it since we don't live in Iowa and I didn't feel like spending more money on a lawyer. Call me lazy but I was speeding so in the end I was going to pay something.

    Jim

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    That's interesting, over the years I have had controllers ask me to "squawk standby", many times in many different types of airplanes.
    They can't do that if you are ADS-B equipped, it is not in the regs. I found out about it through my friendship with the Chairman of the EAA OSH Notam, hadn't noticed the change. This is why at OSH and any other big fly in where they used to tell you to turn your transponder to standby they had to add the caveat "unless ADS-B equipped."

  8. #88

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    Why would they want mode C to be turned off?

  9. #89
    Christina Young's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffP View Post
    Many of us have cell phones and yes they can be tracked. The difference is we choose to have a cell phone, ADS out is a mandate.
    Yes, the difference is a) you can take out the battery in your cell phone legally (if you have one of those models that still have a removable battery), or carry it in a metal case (if battery is not removable), and b) your tracking information isn't publicly available all over the internet in real-time (along with your historical tracking data too).

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    So has your ADS-B saved you from many near misses in that congested airspace?
    Ha, good question. Actually on the flight I mentioned I was surprised to see a target pop up maybe 30 miles away. I was over northern Idaho at the time. It was probably an air-to-air target although I was in radar contact at the time from Lookout Pass. I was at 8500' and he was at 7500'. He continued on a heading that looked like it would coincide with mine and in fact he passed underneath me. I'd have never seen him or even looked for him if I didn't see him first on the 796. He was ADSB Out equipped also; his N number showed.

    The week before I flew into Meadow Creek in Montana for some late September fly fishing. When I left another plane was in the area. We saw each other on our In devices. He was ADSB Out also and that time it was an air-to-air target. We were both well below the ridge line where there is no radar coverage. We talked on the radio briefly because of it.

    I can easily say that ADSB has opened my eyes to more traffic out there than I thought there was before. If in radar coverage Mode C traffic shows too.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Meadow Creek looking west.

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    Last edited by spinner2; 10-13-2017 at 11:05 AM. Reason: image
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp
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  11. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by wirsig View Post
    So how do the big boys hide their info. When working for Kiewit I tried tracking the company jets a couple times and always get this, N341K - KIEWIT ENGINEERING GROUP INC (OMAHA NE)

    This aircraft (N341K) is not available for public tracking per request from the owner/operator.


    Can a lowly commoner like me hide my info as well? Will that no longer work with ADSB?
    Yes you can, but not from the FAA, just from the public flight tracker feeds. Good luck with that and make sure you tip the line boy generously.

    https://www.faa.gov/news/press_relea...m?newsid=13259

  12. #92

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  13. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by wirsig View Post
    So how do the big boys hide their info. When working for Kiewit I tried tracking the company jets a couple times and always get this, N341K - KIEWIT ENGINEERING GROUP INC (OMAHA NE)

    This aircraft (N341K) is not available for public tracking per request from the owner/operator.


    Can a lowly commoner like me hide my info as well? Will that no longer work with ADSB?
    Yes you can, or could, request flight aware not report you.
    "Don't feed the hipsters"

  14. #94
    fobjob's Avatar
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    Any system ripe for abuse WILL be abused.....




    **I'm not getting rid of my Kt-76 just yet.........even though I got the Stratus xponder working today...
    Last edited by fobjob; 10-11-2017 at 11:27 PM.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Why would they want mode C to be turned off?
    Stewart,

    waaaaay too many targets “merging” on ATC radar as everyone lines up for that procedure. Resulting in gazillions of collision alerts.

    MTV

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Stewart,

    waaaaay too many targets “merging” on ATC radar as everyone lines up for that procedure. Resulting in gazillions of collision alerts.

    MTV
    Also the transponder radar target covers too much of the radar screen when there are large volumes of planes in close proximity. It will be difficult to keep traffic separated.
    N1PA

  17. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Stewart,

    waaaaay too many targets “merging” on ATC radar as everyone lines up for that procedure. Resulting in gazillions of collision alerts.

    MTV
    I read that mode C update rates are too slow compared to ADS-B. It's easy to imagine that could be a problem on a controller's screen but that's all it is... imagination. If the mode C goes to standby I don't think the ADS-B pilots can see them. That's not a good solution for the pilots but perhaps it's the lesser of two evils?

  18. #98

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    I don’t think the transponder replies to any interrogation in standby mode-it doesn’t just inhibit the Mode c reply... if you squawk standby you are now a primary target only. They can also request you stop squawking altitude, like in the case of a discrepancy between mode c altitude and where your altimeter says you are....
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  19. #99
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Standby = No signal out, but the transponder remains 'warmed up'.

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  20. #100

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    No txp signal out means no TIS translation to ADS-B screens, right?

  21. #101
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    I'd have to double check on the all-in-one ADS-B systems but a transponder will not put out a signal if in the standby mode. So if you have a UAT connected to a transponder and that transponder is in 'standby' then no signal is being transmitted.

    Web
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  22. #102

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    Not what I meant. In the Osh example, if guys turn their Mode C transponders to standby the TIS-B service, which translates non ADS-B transponders for ADS-B screens, won't paint those targets so the ADS-B screens won't see those planes that are in standby mode. It must have to do with traffic density on the controller's screen. I'm trying to understand the system.

  23. #103
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    Mode C transponders reply to every interrogation, so a clump of them can be a problem for ATC....mode S transponders can be group addressed or individually addressed, thus allowing for heavier traffic concentrations...HOWEVER, the longer digital formats crowd the frequency, and was one of the major considerations of allowing a parallel system on 978 MHz, namely: UAT.

  24. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    So has your ADS-B saved you from many near misses in that congested airspace?
    A couple of years ago, two airplanes came together by Landmark ID.

  25. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    I'd have to double check on the all-in-one ADS-B systems but a transponder will not put out a signal if in the standby mode. So if you have a UAT connected to a transponder and that transponder is in 'standby' then no signal is being transmitted.

    Web
    Doesn't mode S always reply, standby or not? (If a Mode S xpndr is installed)

  26. #106

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    FWIW, I sent a question to the FAA to clarify FAR 91.225f, the paragraph that states ADS-B equipped airplanes must always have the equipment on. I wondered whether that applied to ADS-B applicable airspace or any and all airspace. Their answer was short and direct.

    If it’s equipped with ADS-B Out the equipment must be transmitting required data when moving on the surface and when flying.
    What you do with the breaker is up to you but the rule doesn't provide us the option to turn the equipment off.
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  27. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by CamTom12 View Post
    Doesn't mode S always reply, standby or not? (If a Mode S xpndr is installed)
    If my memory serves me, if you are in standby no modes reply to interrogation. Later mode S transponders include technology that inhibits modes A and C on the ground (using automatic on ground logic) and allows limited mode S replies, hence the requirement to leave transponder on even while on the ground. You’ll see that requirement on numerous Airport diagrams and/or chart notes.
    Last edited by mam90; 10-12-2017 at 03:55 PM.

  28. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christina Young View Post
    You know, all this data could be used for user fees in the future too. Send you a bill based upon your N-number and the number of hours flown in the ADS-B data they collect by satellite. Even if you don't use any services...
    Ding ding ding, we have a winner! The primary reason for having the aircraft I'd not once, but twice in each data durst is so they no who's credit card to charge once user fees are enacted.


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  29. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hann View Post
    I received one of those Cedar Rapids "tickets" (driving my wife's car that is registered to both of us). "Ticket" came in her name and she was pissed, ranting about points, etc. Well, I sat down and read the entire thing. Basically that first piece of paper is extortion. Pay it and you get no points, etc. on your license. If you don't pay it they move forward with the legal action, court date, points, the whole shebang.

    I just paid it since we don't live in Iowa and I didn't feel like spending more money on a lawyer. Call me lazy but I was speeding so in the end I was going to pay something.

    Jim
    Seems that most of those traffic cams are private companies attempting to "help" the town reduce speed, and in exchange turn a profit.

    https://youtu.be/pnUxdpSgsiA



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  30. #110
    JP's Avatar
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    Again, I never, ever thought I'd see the day when Red Barchetta started to come true.....

    I wonder how long those of us on the lowly end will be exempt with our non-electric antiques. Or will they make us simply turn on our smartphone.
    JP Russell--The Cub Therapist
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  31. #111

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    Back in the real world....

    Using the information in the nbaa link posted earlier I reqested FAA Source Blocking. Two days later I received word that my request was processed. The blocking list is updated once a month my N number is in the queue. Pretty simple.
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  32. #112
    fobjob's Avatar
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    FAA blocking does not include traffic monitoring sites that pick up your transmissions directly from a receiver one of their volunteers has at their house......as I understand it....

  33. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by fobjob View Post
    FAA blocking does not include traffic monitoring sites that pick up your transmissions directly from a receiver one of their volunteers has at their house......as I understand it....
    True, but at least for now, FlightAware is honoring the "blocking" requests and not publishing that data. Doesn't mean someone else will not come along and do so.

    One other thing that was pointed out to me: Those noise complaints near airports are going to become a lot more specific pretty soon, because the folks who live there and gripe all the time are going to learn about ADS-B receivers, and use those to record the data of the airplanes flying nearby. It's up to us as pilots to ensure we "fly friendly" whenever possible. But I gotta admit, with my 100-HP 7ECA's anemic rate of climb, it's going to be harder to avoid overflying some of those noise-sensitive neighborhoods at lower-than-optimal (for noise purposes) altitudes.
    Jim Parker
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  34. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Back in the real world....

    Using the information in the nbaa link posted earlier I reqested FAA Source Blocking. Two days later I received word that my request was processed. The blocking list is updated once a month my N number is in the queue. Pretty simple.
    I requested a Source Block. One of the advantages I see to the ADS-B system is SAR. If you're in coverage and are reported missing searchers will have an accurate Last Known Position to start the search. I wonder if a Source Block could hinder that?
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp

  35. #115

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    Source block stops the FAA from sharing your info from public access tracking apps. I doubt they’ll block it from the MCC. Those guys have pretty amazing forensic radar analysis capability now, even without ads-b. The SAR potential is interesting. Probably no factor until an ELT is heard or overdue aircraft is reported.

  36. #116
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    Thank you Stewart! Just sent my FAA Source Blocking request. Easy peasy.

    The way I read it, FAA Source Blocking removes the ADS-B data from the data stream they are porting to the ASDI vendors. The other block sends the data and leaves it up to the vendor not to republish it by their letters of agreement. I would think any SAR request would not be using third party software and/or request it from ADSI vendors (such as flightaware), but rather request the ADS-B data directly from the FAA.
    Last edited by Scooter7779h; 10-14-2017 at 11:23 PM. Reason: Additional info
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