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Thread: ADSB Awakening; Am I paranoid?

  1. #1
    cubpilot2's Avatar
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    ADSB Awakening; Am I paranoid?

    So I was just checking out the new Alaska Airmen Association Web Cam page ( really nice by the way.)

    https://www.alaskaairmen.org/webcams/

    In Scrolling down the page I discovered that they've included a "real time" ADSB screen for the Anchorage / South Central Alaska area.

    In playing with this I found that by clicking on any of the given aircraft shown on the screen I learned way more info then I thought would be available to any "interested party".

    The Data gives your N number, altitude, course etc. But in some cases it will give the owners name and at times photos of the aircraft.
    The screen also gives the entire flight path of the aircraft shown. ( that is the scary part)

    I just checked out a 172 owned by the Air Force Aero Club and viewed his entire trip with landings in Homer and Kenai. Zooming in will showed good detail as to its exact path.

    So as I understand it in 2020 when we will all be required to have and use this equipment.

    I'm really getting excited that I will soon be able to see all of the good fishing spots that my buddies are using. Hunting season will also be fun; especially for the sheep hunters....

    I'm getting paranoid thou that I might forget to have the thing turned on all of the time. Am I the only one with this fear?

    Seriously thou: check out their web cam sight. They did a very nice job!
    Ed
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  2. #2

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    Your understanding of the 2020 issue is wrong.
    DENNY
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    Christina Young's Avatar
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    Ed, you are right, this is a HUGE security and privacy risk. Remember the old "pleaserobme.com" website that posted "business opportunities" for burglars based upon automatic collection of data from twitter and other social media sites when people posted about being away from home? This is worse because it may not be voluntary soon.

    I remember a study just coming out a few months ago about how the ADSB system was built with virtually NO security.
    Last edited by Christina Young; 10-09-2017 at 08:34 AM.
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    Ed,

    ADS-B requirements do not apply to Lake Hood or any other airspace around Alaska. I believe Alaska is excluded in the regulatory language, anyway.

    SB

    Under the rule, ADS-B Out performance will be required to operate in:
    1. Class A, B, and C airspace.
    2. Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface.
    3. Class E airspace at and above 3,000 feet MSL over the Gulf of Mexico from the coastline of the United States out to 12 nautical miles.
    4. Around those airports identified in 14 CFR part 91, Appendix D.
    Last edited by stewartb; 10-07-2017 at 05:29 PM.

  5. #5
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I agree Ed, ery glad there is an OFF switch and I live in the sticks.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
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  6. #6
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Install it IF you are sure you are required to. Then turn it off when leaving that airspace. Can't track you when it's off.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
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    Anyone who uses mode C can be tracked on Flightaware. That’s not new.
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  8. #8
    cubpilot2's Avatar
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    ADS-B requirements do not apply to Lake Hood or any other airspace around Alaska. I believe Alaska is excluded in the regulatory language, anyway.

    SB

    So I do operate out of Lake Hood but frequently enter the Class C airspace over Anchorage International going South to the Kenai or West to the Little Sue.
    So are you saying that I won't need the ADSB in that airspace?

    If Alaska is excluded in this thing it hasn't been very well advertised. They sure are installing a lot of ADSB units around here.

    Please educate me on this. I guess I missed the memo....
    Ed

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    Yes, I meant excluded from airspace that most of us use, which doesn’t include ANC. It’ll be interesting how they handle diversions when Hood strip is closed.

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    Just remember when you make a foil hat to turn the serated edges out and to fold them up...
    "Don't feed the hipsters"

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    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Name:  tin foil hats.jpg
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    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
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  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    Name:  tin foil hats.jpg
Views: 954
Size:  58.4 KB
    I would be afraid of that cat. jrh

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    Cubpilot2
    Ya got two choices pay the money and show me the good hunting/fishing or go around class C.
    DENNY
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  14. #14
    cubpilot2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    Cubpilot2
    Ya got two choices pay the money and show me the good hunting/fishing or go around class C.
    DENNY
    OK..... I found the memo.
    Denny: Ill show you mine if you show me yours.. You First....

    Ive actually bought into the ADSB thing and spent the money after the two cubs collided in the valley a couple years ago.
    I'm always in the Pt. McKenzie area and at times its very very crowded. Just last week I had a Navaho shoot under me coming off of Merrill. He popped out of some scud 200 ft below. Never saw or heard any warning from the tower. He was just suddenly there.

    If just a few are using it in that area then it won't help as much as I had hoped. When out of the bowl area I will most likely exercise my options.

    Ive got my project cub converted and will do the 180 cub later.

    Hotrod180: Nice hat.... I prefer a wider brim thou. Better reception.
    Ed
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  15. #15
    algonquin's Avatar
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    I had a eye opener this past summer. I bought my C-185 in NY and they sent me a tax bill along with the records of everywhere it had been flown in 2014. Big brother is always watching and Recording! No ADSB on board.
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  16. #16

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    In a terminal radar area ADS-B depicts ADS-B out and mode C airplanes on the screen. What about no transponder airplanes? Do they show up?

  17. #17
    txpacer's Avatar
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    Let's put another layer of foil on that hat...

    I guy I know with a no-electric Taylorcraft who decided to take it to Oshkosh a few years ago. He had a battery powered radio in it. The battery died while flight following somewhere in Kansas, and he decided it was a good time to stop and get some gas. He couldn't get the credit card pump to work and went to another airport.

    While gassing up, he got a call on his cell phone from approach, wondering why he disappeared. The controller said that they weren't too worried because they saw that he had swiped his card twice at the other airport.
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  18. #18

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    Guys there is no privacy in the United States (Just ask Equifax) and the SCOTUS has even tried to invent it.

    When I was a corporate pilot back before the age of internet I was tasked with watching competitors and prospects among other things. I used to have a title search firm in OKC run over to the registry and look up N numbers. I had line boys who I "tipped" heavily to watch for certain aircraft and their movements. I would remind you of Charlie Sheen's character in "Wall Street" who simply ask the fueler where a jet was going to get an idea of an upcoming corporate acquisition. I just had lineman on "retainer" so to speak. If you wanted to know "who" was on the airplane just give the line boy 200 bucks, a disposable camera and a prepaid FedEx envelope.

    Equally so, I had a friend who leased his Navajo to a aerial tour firm. When the firm went bust and the airplane went missing without the lease payments he asked me to locate it. I spread the word to FBO's up and down the west coast of a 500 dollar bounty and in less than an hour I had location and in 4 hours I was flying the airplane out.

    If you are in the corporate world, in mergers and aquisitions, if you are Walt Disney trying to buy up half of Orlando, I strongly suggest you use NetJets rather than your own aircraft. Yeah, you can register your own under a Delaware corporation but that can be traced back to you in about 3 minutes.

    There was no one "off the grid" more than Ted Kazynski aka the Unabomber and they found him.

    I assume everything about me is "out there" including SS number, birthdate and everything else. Give it up, big data has won.

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    My buddy was downloading Foreflight update when his I pad froze up. He called them and explained he did not want to loose all he's info because he had 3 hunting camps set out. It was not a problem the tech guy said they had all his flights/breadcrumb trails backed up on their server and they could push back whatever he wanted.
    DENNY
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  20. #20
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    They found Ted because his brother turned him in.
    Eddie Foy
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God"

  21. #21
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    I looked up both of my planes on http://flightaware.com/. One of them was flying incognito in Billings Montana (It has never been out of New England) and the other was flying around in SE Asia identified as an AirBus. I figure that they don't have a clue where my planes are.
    N1PA

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    No they found Ted because they put his writing into the public domain, and his sister in law identified it. Despite using a lawyer as a cut out, the FBI simply called the law office posing as the accounts receivable clerk and found out the brother's name. Again, they can find you.
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  23. #23
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    As usual, I will give you the last word.
    Eddie Foy
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God"

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    Just a note about "turning it off" (referring to the ADS-B out equipment): the FARs require that once the equipment is installed, it must be turned on at all times. The FAA can definitely tell when you turn it off, and they could easily issue you a violation based on that. And since that involves a willful act, they are unlikely to be lenient. A friend of mine who follows FAA enforcement actions closely says there have already been a few cases brought against pilots who did that very thing - usually following some other bad act - and the FAA threw the book at them for it. Appeals thus far have been fruitless.

    Be careful out there!
    Jim Parker
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  25. #25
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    the FARs require that once the equipment is installed, it must be turned on at all times
    Could you please provide the reference for that? I'm not familiar with such a reg - looks like I have some learning to do. Thanks - -
    Gordon

    N4328M KTDO
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    akskibum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Misch View Post
    Could you please provide the reference for that? I'm not familiar with such a reg - looks like I have some learning to do. Thanks - -
    From
    AC No:20-165



    3-7(2)
    Turning Off ADS-B. 14 CFR § 91.225 requires that all aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out operate with the equipment turned on at all times. There are no 14CFR § 91.227 requirements to disable ADS-B broadcasts at the request of ATC. When ADS-B functionality resides in the Mode S transponder, it is acceptable for the only means to disable the ADS-B transmissions to be disabling the transponder. If this architecture is used, specify the impact in the flight manual, (e.g. loss of ADS-B, transponder and TCAS functionality). Locate the ADS-B on/off controls to prevent inadvertent actuation.

  27. #27
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Thank you akskibum. Here's the quoted reg excerpt.

    "14 CFR 91.225 (f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times."

    Yeah, 1984 has arrived. BTW SJ, that is NOT political, it is literary
    Gordon

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    cubpilot2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimParker256 View Post
    Just a note about "turning it off" (referring to the ADS-B out equipment): the FARs require that once the equipment is installed, it must be turned on at all times. The FAA can definitely tell when you turn it off, and they could easily issue you a violation based on that.
    !
    So does that mean since it is now installed that it must be on; no matter what type of airspace you are operating in?
    Ed

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    Christina Young's Avatar
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    So I guess that means once you have ADS-B out installed, your N-number will show up to the world whenever / wherever you are flying! No turning it off (legally, anyway)...

    And amazingly some think this kind of big brother, 24/7 tracking is nothing to be concerned about and is tin foil hattery...

    One other thought -- how fast will this be used to further restrict our flying? Now that they can track everyone where ever they are, will it be used to impose bans on flying / sightseeing over national parks or wilderness areas like in some places in Canada (or the Boundary Waters, for that matter)?
    Last edited by Christina Young; 10-09-2017 at 05:53 AM.

  30. #30
    n40ff's Avatar
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    So just never turn out on.

    No generator= transponder exemption = ADSB not required either.

    Figure out a creative charging system and tell the system to pee up a rope.
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  31. #31
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christina Young View Post
    So I guess that means once you have ADS-B out installed, your N-number will show up to the world whenever / wherever you are flying! No turning it off (legally, anyway)...

    And amazingly some think this kind of big brother, 24/7 tracking is nothing to be concerned about and is tin foil hattery...

    One other thought -- how fast will this be used to further restrict our flying? Now that they can track everyone where ever they are, will it be used to impose bans on flying / sightseeing over national parks or wilderness areas like in some places in Canada (or the Boundary Waters, for that matter)?
    It is my understanding that the "N" number identification can be turned off when using the VFR code. Any other code it will be on.
    N1PA

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    All of you who worry about "1984" and who do NOT have a mobile phone in your pocket most times, raise your hands. Yeah 1984 has arrived, microphones and cameras everywhere, you bought them for the government to use and take them everywhere you go. Read "Snowden".

    By the way, the L3 Lynx NGT9000 does not have an "off" switch. In fact it has not switch at all. Always on.
    Last edited by GeeBee; 10-09-2017 at 08:00 AM.

  33. #33
    Cub Builder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    It is my understanding that the "N" number identification can be turned off when using the VFR code. Any other code it will be on.
    ADS-B units can be operated in Anonymous mode when squawking VFR. When you enter or leave controlled airspace, Anonymous mode has to be turned off. But if you have made a radio call to a radar facility, you have already given the FAA the same information.

    Not all units have Anonymous mode, so if privacy is your concern, look for one that does.

    -Cub Builder

  34. #34
    Christina Young's Avatar
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    Sorry, I keep mine turned off much of the time. And it doesn't work in many areas I go in anyway (no cell coverage).

    Trust me, nothing good can come of this. Once they start collecting all this ADS-B data, they will find new uses for it.... I imagine a Kaggle machine learning contest down the road somewhere to come up with new models to do something with it...

    Skywagon8a, I hope you are right... but even if N-numbers aren't shown, can the data be used to argue for further airspace restrictions? If the enviros see lots of people flying in Idaho wilderness during bushwheel week (or whatever it's called this year) can they use that data to shut it down?

  35. #35

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    You can change the identifier on my Garmin 345 to whatever you want, but it is my understanding that all the ATC facilities see is a VFR target squaking 1200 and your altitude. I thought that only other ads-b equiped aircraft saw the ID. Also, my understanding is the only time it is required is while in B,C,D, and E above 10,000'. Change the ID to something cryptic like: NOTME or UPYOUR

  36. #36
    Ruffair's Avatar
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    The frog has been boiled.
    "...We're fast enough to get there, But slow enough to see..."
    Fron the song "Barometer Soup". By Jimmy Buffett
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  37. #37

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    The frogs could still get out of the hot water, but a lot of frogs seem to like it.
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  38. #38
    spinner2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    It is my understanding that the "N" number identification can be turned off when using the VFR code. Any other code it will be on.
    A Center controller told me on the radio that the only way he could tell if a plane had an ADSB transponder would be because it did show the N number on his screen.

    I think there were some earlier ADSB transponders that could be run anonymously but the FAA made the manufacturers remove that possibility.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubpilot2 View Post
    So does that mean since it is now installed that it must be on; no matter what type of airspace you are operating in?
    Yep, according to the FARs, that IS the rule.
    Jim Parker
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  40. #40
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    I do believe that the transponders with Mode S transmit the N number and do so without ADSB being installed.
    N1PA
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